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dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: parents consent?

a4u2fear wrote:

Dave,

I do not need a translation, but I'm curious about the parents consent of the bride Mary in the attached marriage, the fourth marriage on the scan.

Did the parents give her their consent?

Also, do you have any leads on where I could find her birth record? It says she's from Debno, but I am unable to find those scans on familysearch.

thanks as always.

Hi Andrew,

Both the parents of Maryanna Jaskiewicz and the parents of Wojciech Rosinski gave their consent for the marriage. The Latin record reads “Ambo cum consensu parentum” = “Both with the consent of (their) parents. The bride and the groom were both living with their respective parents prior to the wedding and thus were considered to be living under parental authority and were expected to have parental consent to marry even though in our view they would be considered to be emancipated from parental authority. The Latin reads “Ambo...sub potestate parentum existunt” = “Both...are living under the authority of (their) parents.”

It doesn’t look too good for finding her birth/baptism record. The only source for records from Mogilno appears to be the books on Family Search. They were filmed at the Archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno and, according to this link https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=5217 the years around the year of her birth are not found in those archives and are not housed in the parish or in any of the Polish National Archives. As far as I know the civil registrations housed there begin with the establishment of free standing civil registry offices in 1874. Prior to 1874 Catholic civil transcripts of parish records in the German Partition were kept by parish priests and those records are usually found in diocesan archives. The bottom line is that since the years you would need are not in the Archdiocesan archives of Gniezno the chances of finding the records you would need are almost nil.

But on the good news side...Here is the link to the 1800 marriage record of her parents https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMZ-B7ZJ-8?i=792&cat=736853 It is the top entry on the right page of the image. BTW Krystyna/Christina’s maiden name in the entry is Kwiatkowska.

Hoping that this helps,

Dave

a4u2fear

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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:31 am Post subject: Re: parents consent?

dnowicki wrote:

a4u2fear wrote:

Thanks Dave, definitely helps, appreciate it. Onward and upward

a4u2fear

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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:14 pm Post subject: baptism translation

Hoping to get the bottom right baptism translated for Anastasia

Parents Thomas Podrybinska and Susanna (is possibly her last name shown?)

Thanks

Anastasia Podrybinska film 8022480 img 987.jpg

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Ostrowo baptism, (Roman Catholic parish register of baptisms for Ostrowo (Inowrocław), Bydgoszcz, Poland; formerly Ostrowo bei Amsee, Posen, Prussia, Germany. Text in Latin)

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dnowicki
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: baptism translation

a4u2fear wrote:

Hoping to get the bottom right baptism translated for Anastasia

Parents Thomas Podrybinska and Susanna (is possibly her last name shown?)

Thanks

Hi Again,

Here is the translation of the B&B record.

Dave

Ostrowo

On the 17th day of April in the year 1814 I, Paschalny Bienkowski, vicar, baptized a child born on the 15th day of April at the hour of 9 in the evening of the legitimate marriage of the upright* Tomasz Podrybinski, a miller, and of Zuzanna née Balcer(?) to whom I gave the name(s) Anastazja and Katarzyna. The sponsors were the honorable** Panna Michalina ??binska, a maiden, and the Reverend Franciszek Getchkaw(?), pastor of Ostrowo.

Notes: *honestus/upright: adjective used to describe a peasant from a small town or village.
**Magnifica Domina/honorable Panna: title used to describe a court official, or in this case, the daughter of a court official.

a4u2fear

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Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:57 pm Post subject:

Thanks Dave. This side of the family is driving me crazy! But it helps. Ha

a4u2fear

Joined: 25 Oct 2019
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Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:05 pm Post subject:

Dave you said (in regards to my Debno records question):

"It doesn’t look too good for finding her birth/baptism record. The only source for records from Mogilno appears to be the books on Family Search. They were filmed at the Archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno and, according to this link https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=5217 the years around the year of her birth are not found in those archives and are not housed in the parish or in any of the Polish National Archives."

I looked further,
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/736853?availability=Family%20History%20Library
is mogilno parish records and I found births from Debno in the attached films (film 7769361 and 7769362)
Roman Catholic parish register of baptisms, marriages and deaths for Mogilno (Mogilno), Bydgoszcz, Poland; formerly Ostrowo bei Amsee, Posen, Prussia, Germany. Text in Latin. Includes records for Janikowo.

Still searching for her baptism, but it appears this might be available after all

dnowicki
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Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:44 pm Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Hi Andrew,

I looked at that page from Family Search before I wrote that things do not look good for finding the birth record of Maryanna Jaskiewicz. According to the film notes no birth/baptism records are listed for the years from 1786 to 1808. Her wedding took place on January 26, 1829 and that record states that she was 25 years of age at the time of the wedding which means that she would have been born in 1803 or 1804. This places her year of birth during the gap years for which there are no filmed birth records from the parish.
Unless there are errors in the film notes (which is always possible) the math just doesn’t hold any real hope of finding her birth on the films at Family Search. In my own personal research I’ve found a few errors in the description of film contents but usually those errors can be attributed to errors in understanding the Latin text of the filmed records. Here are some examples of what I mean. One film of records from the parish of Słupy lists bierzowanie (which itself is an incorrect spelling of what should be bierzmowanie, meaning Confirmations) in the film notes. The Latin title heading within the actual records filmed is “Confessio Paschalis” which means “Easter Confessions”. The pages listed the adults of the parish who were supposed to complete their “Easter Duty” (the obligation to make one’s confession and receive Communion at least once a year during the Easter season) recorded by village. The records have nothing to do with Confirmations but are actually quite valuable from a genealogical point of view since they act as a sort of census of adults by family group. Another example which comes to mind is a film which purports to contain a list of parishioners of the diocese of Włocławek. In reality the film only contains the official letters sent by the bishop of what at the time was the Diocese of Włocławek-Kalisz. From what I could see the erroneous claim of a listing of parishioners probably was the result of someone seeing letters sent by the bishop containing the names of the priests of the diocese whom he summoned to take part in what was a week long spiritual retreat. Since the priests were summoned in several groups I guess that whoever wrote the film description didn’t read the letters (which were long and were in Latin) and saw the lists of names and came up with the erroneous description of the contents of the film.

While it is possible that an error has occurred in the film notes for numbers 7769361 and 7769362, I don’t hold out much hope but I suppose that you’ll not know for sure unless you carefully examine the films. I guess that one can only have peace of mind after leaving no stone unturned no matter how heavy the stone is.

Sorry that I can’t be more upbeat and encouraging but that is how I see the situation.

Dave

a4u2fear

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Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:33 am Post subject:

Hi Dave

I misled you with my last post and I apologize. While my original question was about Mary, I needed her document translated to find out the status of her parents.

However, the Jaskiewicz family births have eluded me. They appear to all be from Debno. While I am not specifically looking for Mary (~1804), I am looking for her sibling's family and kids who were born in the range of 1808-1820. I still haven't had luck finding them, but by browsing those mogilno films I did find a lot of baptisms in Debno included. Still, maybe I am looking for something that can't be found.

a4u2fear

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Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:26 am Post subject: marriage

Dave

First marriage on the attachment

If i am reading this right, Michael Zok is a widow and both of his parents are alive during this marriage?

Mike Zok Mary Wisnewski 1857 marriage 8018014 pg 868.jpg

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marriage Mike Zok Mary Wisnewski

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dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:21 am Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Not looking specifically for the birth of Maryanna does put the search in a different light and searching through the post 1808 records does make sense. If the search of births in Dębno is fruitful that is great; if it is not, perhaps a search through births from the remaining villages of the parish would be warranted.

Wishing you success,

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:24 am Post subject: Re: marriage

a4u2fear wrote:

Dave

First marriage on the attachment

If i am reading this right, Michael Zok is a widow and both of his parents are alive during this marriage?

Hi again,

The groom was a widower. Whether or not his parents were living at the time cannot be determined from the entry. The record states that the groom had judicial consent for the marriage but makes no mention of his parents. It does state that the bride had the consent of her father, but no mention is made of her mother. Widowers had no need for parental consent since they had already been emancipated from parental authority by virtue of their first marriage.

I’ve never been able to discover the technicalities of judicial consent in the German Partition. The peasants in that partition had been emancipated from their feudal obligations in 1807. Prior to that year peasants on landed estates needed the permission of the Pan who owned the estate. Although emancipation had taken place in 1807, the relationship between the peasants and the landowners was a bit murky after that date, being bound up by custom as well as by law. Sometimes custom seemed to be more important and influential in defining the relationship between the peasants and the szlachta than the law.

Perhaps the need for judicial consent from the court in the case of widowers may have been related to land holding/ownership, but I’m not sure.

Anyway, the bottom line is that the groom had the consent of the court and there is no indication of whether or not his parents were living at the time.

It may also be worth noting that at the time of the marriage the groom was residing in Kołuda Wielka and the bride had been residing in Ludzisko.

Dave

wavydave

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Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: parishioner records

Wow, thanks so much Dave! I've been struggling to figure out these parishioner lists for over a year and you've now helped me locate the church record locations for some of my immediate family. Very much appreciated.

dnowicki wrote:

Hi Dave,

You’ve extracted most of the information correctly. I’ll just make a few additions and corrections. Wincenty 2 is entirely in Latin. Wincenty 3 is mostly in Latin with a bit of Polish.

Wincenty 2:
House 0 just means there is no house number but gives no indication whether he was the owner or a tenant.
Katarzyna was born on November 25, 1838 (as I read the numbers. Also, it is more in line with the births & ages of the other children. 1832 would not match her age in Wincenty 3.
Kasper (Also spelled Kacper in Polish) was born in 1841 and baptized in Czostków (as I read the letters)
Damianus is Damian rather than Dominik and he was born on October 3, 1844
The next two children are Rafal & Szymon (Polish) Raphael & Simon (Latin & English). They are twins (gemelli—the word you asked about) and were born on October 25 184(not sure of the last number).

Wincenty 3
I don’t see anything to indicate that he is deceased. The first words are vide in (illegible abbreviation). Vide is the Present Imperative Singular (gives a command) of the verb video,videre, vidi, visum, to see and so "vide in..." means “see in...” It directs you to another book/record/place. The rest is correct.
Elżbieta is all correct.
Katarzyna is all correct
Kasper/Kacper is correct except that I see the place as Czostków
Dominik again is Damian. The following words are in Polish “w …orwice ochr.” = baptized in ...orw…
Leo (Polish: Leon) correct age; in Złot??? parish of J (or I) gicka?
Józef correct age; baptized in Licharowo? (ie is the Locative ending (which follows the preposition “w” (“in”). The Nominative ends in o.

It appears that the twins Rafal & Szymon must have died.

I hope that the tweaks help you a bit.

Dave

who

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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:05 am Post subject:

This record is from Trawy, near Pniewnik, Mazovian Voivodeship. 1806. This is supposed to be a old man, but as far as I understand, it is a "Infant"?

Thanks!

501045_406144deb557egew254dho.jpg

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dnowicki
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:48 am Post subject:

who wrote:

This record is from Trawy, near Pniewnik, Mazovian Voivodeship. 1806. This is supposed to be a old man, but as far as I understand, it is a "Infant"?

Thanks!

Hi,

You read the record correctly. The deceased is a three month old child. Here is a translation of the body of the entry.

On the 5th day of March, 1806 a child by the name of Dionizy, the son of the nobles* Tomasz and Agnieszka Swiętochowski, 3 months of age, died of ordinary causes (lit. an ordinary death).

Note:*nobilis/noble: describes the owner or leaseholder of a parcel of land. The Polish version is szlachetny.

Hope this helps you determine who the child is.

Dave

who

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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:09 am Post subject:

Thanks!! So, I have to find the good one... Smile

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