GorliceRoots
Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:40 pm
Post subject: Quick proof + one word
Dave, I have this essentially done. Can you check the few parts in red? Don't fret over the surnames, but if you have a guess - great. The midwife appears again.
The one word I can't get, though, looks like "Cantri". IF that is a reference to a singer, I'm not sure why b/c there is an occupation listed to the right. Thank you.
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:11 pm
Post subject:
Thank you Dave for the translations and Sophia for the name clarifications. I really appreciate it
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Quick proof + one word
GorliceRoots wrote: | Dave, I have this essentially done. Can you check the few parts in red? Don't fret over the surnames, but if you have a guess - great. The midwife appears again.
The one word I can't get, though, looks like "Cantri". IF that is a reference to a singer, I'm not sure why b/c there is an occupation listed to the right. Thank you. |
Hi Joe
The word you couldn’t get is Cantii, the Genitive Singular of Cantius. It is part of his name, which was Jan Kanty (or in English John Cantius) which specified the name of his patron saint as distinguished from all the many other Saint Johns out there.
Faber ferri also sometimes is written as Ferrifaber, with the meaning as you wrote. It is made up of two words, ferrum, ferri, n., iron and faber, fabri, m., maker. Lanio, lanionis, m., butcher. It is in the Genitive Singular because it stands in apposition with Joannis. Faber is in the Nominative Singular because it stands in apposition with Franciscus, which is also in the Nominative Singular. Ferri is in the Genitive as part of the descriptive name—a faber ferri is a person who makes things out of iron and hence a blacksmith.
Bapt. abbreviates baptizavit and eum is understood. English: Kwizcinski baptized (him).
Obs. abbreviates obstetrix. Obstetrix, obstreticis, f., midwife.
Good job.
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Quick proof + one word
GorliceRoots wrote: | Dave, I have this essentially done. Can you check the few parts in red? Don't fret over the surnames, but if you have a guess - great. The midwife appears again.
The one word I can't get, though, looks like "Cantri". IF that is a reference to a singer, I'm not sure why b/c there is an occupation listed to the right. Thank you. |
Hi Joe
The word you couldn’t get is Cantii, the Genitive Singular of Cantius. It is part of his name, which was Jan Kanty (or in English John Cantius) which specified the name of his patron saint as distinguished from all the many other Saint Johns out there.
Faber ferri also sometimes is written as Ferrifaber, with the meaning as you wrote. It is made up of two words, ferrum, ferri, n., iron and faber, fabri, m., maker. Lanio, lanionis, m., butcher. It is in the Genitive Singular because it stands in apposition with Joannis. Faber is in the Nominative Singular because it stands in apposition with Franciscus, which is also in the Nominative Singular. Ferri is in the Genitive as part of the descriptive name—a faber ferri is a person who makes things out of iron and hence a blacksmith.
Bapt. abbreviates baptizavit and eum is understood. English: Kwizcinski baptized (him).
Obs. abbreviates obstetrix. Obstetrix, obstreticis, f., midwife.
Good job.
Dave
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EANWhitsonPO Top Contributor
Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Replies: 370
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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:05 pm
Post subject: Translation please
Hi Dave! This is supposedly what this record is supposed to be. I don't see it all. So I thought I'd ask you.
Thanks!
Name: Anna Maria Strubels
Marriage Date: 25 Mai 1751 (25 May 1751)
Winterbach u. Zweibrücken, Bayern
Father: Christian Strubels
Spouse: Wilhelm Hofmann
Winterbach u Zweibrücken
Evangelische Kirche Battweiler (BA. Zweibrücken)
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GorliceRoots
Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:11 pm
Post subject: Clarification...
If this is opening a big can of (Latin) worms, you may ignore. I agree 100% that the priest wrote "faber ferri" - just as I guessed and as you proved. Your argument is flawless, and the priest agrees. Google insists on saying faber ferrarius. What is the difference between faber ferri and faber ferrarius? If faber is "maker" or "smith", then "faber ferri" is a maker of iron or a smith of iron. Ferri here is the genitive form of a NOUN. In "faber ferrarius" isn't ferrarius an ADJECTIVE in the nominative? Yet... google tells me plain old "ferrarius" is a blacksmith. SO... Back to "faber ferrarius". If they are both nouns, it is somewhat akin to a "maker blacksmith" which makes no sense.
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GorliceRoots
Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:48 pm
Post subject: Leo baptism
The surnames I get are in red for a best guess: Waszila & Stubarz & Kundrzal.
As for the notation after the priest: P.P. Ref./Res. I get P.P. = parochus parochiae = “pastor of the parish”. But what is the Ref or Res.?
Then I get sarcinarii = carrier of packages = mailman(?) or courier(?).
Lastly, there is a mystery occupation (I think it is the occupation) starting with G or T or I(?). I've tried a million different words, but I can't get it.
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Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:27 pm
Post subject:
Would I be allowed to submit an armorial letter written in old Latin for translation?
This side of my family is not Polish, it is a Hungarian noble family, the Gazdagh family.
It is a long letter written entirely in old Latin, I have an idea of what some of it is saying but I am not fluent in old Latin. I would really appreciate it if any translation help and expertise could be offered for this, even though it is not exclusively Polish.
If such content would be allowed, then I will be sure to post a picture of the letter in another reply.
Thank you.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Translation please
EANWhitson wrote: | Hi Dave! This is supposedly what this record is supposed to be. I don't see it all. So I thought I'd ask you.
Thanks!
Name: Anna Maria Strubels
Marriage Date: 25 Mai 1751 (25 May 1751)
Winterbach u. Zweibrücken, Bayern
Father: Christian Strubels
Spouse: Wilhelm Hofmann
Winterbach u Zweibrücken
Evangelische Kirche Battweiler (BA. Zweibrücken) |
Hi,
Despite the date at the beginning of the record, the entry is in German, not Latin. I’m sure that Michael would be able to provide you with the answers you need.
Sorry that I can’t help you with this one.
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Clarification...
GorliceRoots wrote: | If this is opening a big can of (Latin) worms, you may ignore. I agree 100% that the priest wrote "faber ferri" - just as I guessed and as you proved. Your argument is flawless, and the priest agrees. Google insists on saying faber ferrarius. What is the difference between faber ferri and faber ferrarius? If faber is "maker" or "smith", then "faber ferri" is a maker of iron or a smith of iron. Ferri here is the genitive form of a NOUN. In "faber ferrarius" isn't ferrarius an ADJECTIVE in the nominative? Yet... google tells me plain old "ferrarius" is a blacksmith. SO... Back to "faber ferrarius". If they are both nouns, it is somewhat akin to a "maker blacksmith" which makes no sense. |
Joe,
It is more like opening up a can of dead worms for Google Translate, which certainly is not the ultimate authority on the Latin language. I’ve seen some ludicrous translations from Latin to English via Google Translate posted on the internet. My assessment is that Google is wrong, misleading and incomplete in this case. Latin has too long a history with variations in usage from its earliest inscriptions dating from the sixth and seventh centuries B.C.E. through the archaic period and the Golden Age (81 B.C.E. to the year 14 C.E.), the Silver Age (14-180 C.E), etc. down to the present time for those complexities to be reduced to a non-human translation mechanism.
Yes, ferrarius, a, um is an adjective and yes adjectives can be used as substantives, i.e. adjectives which do not modify a noun but stand in place of the noun. (Think of the title of the old Clint Eastwood flick “The Good, the Bad, & the Ugly.”—all adjectives standing in place of nouns.) So it is true that ferrarius, ferarii, m. is used for a blacksmith. It is just that, as you concluded, Google Translate’s result makes no sense by the reading it produced. It makes even less sense when it is crystal clear that the word in the record is ferri, not ferrarii, as Google would have you believe. The different between faber ferri and faber ferarius is that the former is correct Latin and the later isn't.
Bottom line is don’t sweat the small stuff by making it overly complex, but keep thinking and asking questions—a really good method of learning. After all, the Socratic method has not proved effective for centuries without reason.
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Leo baptism
GorliceRoots wrote: | The surnames I get are in red for a best guess: Waszila & Stubarz & Kundrzal.
As for the notation after the priest: P.P. Ref./Res. I get P.P. = parochus parochiae = “pastor of the parish”. But what is the Ref or Res.?
Then I get sarcinarii = carrier of packages = mailman(?) or courier(?).
Lastly, there is a mystery occupation (I think it is the occupation) starting with G or T or I(?). I've tried a million different words, but I can't get it. |
Joe,
Could you please post the actual entry in a format like jpg. PDF does zoom in nicely on your work but it does not allow me to see the entry clearly by increasing the size. To answer your questions intelligently I need to be able to see the entry more clearly than the PDF allows.
Thanks,
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:22 pm
Post subject:
MikeBayko wrote: | Would I be allowed to submit an armorial letter written in old Latin for translation?
This side of my family is not Polish, it is a Hungarian noble family, the Gazdagh family.
It is a long letter written entirely in old Latin, I have an idea of what some of it is saying but I am not fluent in old Latin. I would really appreciate it if any translation help and expertise could be offered for this, even though it is not exclusively Polish.
If such content would be allowed, then I will be sure to post a picture of the letter in another reply.
Thank you. |
Mike,
When you speak of “old Latin” I presume you are referring to Latin as used from the Late Middle Ages or later, which actually is rather “new” Latin. Certainly feel free to post the letter. However, I will not be able to tell you whether I want to devote the time required to translate it rather than to provide a summary until I see the length of the letter and determine the length of time it would take to translate it. I may not be able to get to it for a while since despite coronavirus life still does go on. Also, please post it in a format (like jpg) which would allow zooming in without sacrificing clarity.
Thanks,
Dave
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GorliceRoots
Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USABack to top |
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:54 pm
Post subject: Leo baptism in jpeg format
Dave,
I was trying to be helpful by combining into one file. I won't do that again. Sorry. I will provide .jpg files in the future.
I have attached the Leo baptism. It should blow up in glorious clarity. It is the highest res record I have from this batch of records. (The whole register page is 6 MB, so I only included the relevant part.)
One other note about this record in addition to my other paltry translation dilemmas. The middle name is given as "Constantius". It seems to me, based on your handy name list, that the priest worked backwards from the Polish Konstanty to get Constantius (instead of Constantinus). I see no way for the end of the middle name (after the 2nd t) to be -inus. I see only -ius.
Thank you!
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Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:05 am
Post subject:
dnowicki wrote: |
Mike,
When you speak of “old Latin” I presume you are referring to Latin as used from the Late Middle Ages or later, which actually is rather “new” Latin. Certainly feel free to post the letter. However, I will not be able to tell you whether I want to devote the time required to translate it rather than to provide a summary until I see the length of the letter and determine the length of time it would take to translate it. I may not be able to get to it for a while since despite coronavirus life still does go on. Also, please post it in a format (like jpg) which would allow zooming in without sacrificing clarity.
Thanks,
Dave |
Here is the front and back of the letter, it is quite long. If you chose to summarize it, and I can understand why, I must ask that you keep any possible genealogical information as true to the original text as possible.
Thank you.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Leo baptism in jpeg format
GorliceRoots wrote: | Dave,
I was trying to be helpful by combining into one file. I won't do that again. Sorry. I will provide .jpg files in the future.
I have attached the Leo baptism. It should blow up in glorious clarity. It is the highest res record I have from this batch of records. (The whole register page is 6 MB, so I only included the relevant part.)
One other note about this record in addition to my other paltry translation dilemmas. The middle name is given as "Constantius". It seems to me, based on your handy name list, that the priest worked backwards from the Polish Konstanty to get Constantius (instead of Constantinus). I see no way for the end of the middle name (after the 2nd t) to be -inus. I see only -ius.
Thank you! |
Hi Joe,
Thanks for posting the image in the format which allows it to appear in glorious clarity. My eyes appreciate it.
Your reading of the surnames in red seems accurate, except that perhaps the surname of the midwife may end with the letters “cz” instead of “rz”. The ultimate decision rests on your judgment call of how to interpret the handwriting. In my opinion, the letters after the name of the priest who baptized him are probably the abbreviation of the religious order of which the priest was a member. Although the name Dionisius/Dionizy was a given name found in Poland it was a popular saint’s name taken by members of some religious orders. This fact increases the likelihood that the abbreviation is that of a religious order. I don’t know which order used those initials, but I’m not really all that familiar with Catholic male religious orders.
The second given name is Constantius rather than Constantinus but both Latin names are rendered in Polish as Konstanty. Both Latin forms are derived from the participle constans, constantis which means unchangeable, standing firm, constant, steadfast, etc. The priest was not working backwards from the Polish but just used a variant Latin form of the name. Some forms and spellings of Latin given names varied by region, which may have been the case here. I probably should add Constantius to the next revision of the list of names.
On to the sponsors...The mystery word after Stephanus Halacz is not an occupation and is actually two words—Theresia (which also can be written as Teresia) & uxor. That part of the entry reads “Teresa, the wife of Władysław...” The only real mystery in the sponsors’ column is why there were two men and two women entered there. Catholic Church law (Canon Law) required one sponsor per person baptized. Custom morphed that into two, a male and a female, hence the common reference to godparents. Others who were “honorary” attendants at a baptism were usually named as “also assisting”. This commonly happened in the baptism records of the gentry/szlachta but very rarely in non-noble records. How & why it happened here is another of the mysteries of life.
On to the carrier of letters...The word in all its glorious clarity is scrinarius, scrinarii, m. cabinet maker/carpenter. This is how the letters appear (The “n” is consistent with other examples of the same letter in the inconsistent handwriting of the scribe. I guess that whoever wrote the entry was too inconsistent to have Konstanty for a middle name.) and the occupation better fits the time and place.
I believe that takes care of everything for today.
Dave
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