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Latin records translations
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GorliceRoots



Joined: 15 Mar 2020
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Post Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:48 pm      Post subject: Another easy one
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Dave,

My entry is the fourth from top: Vladislaus. I have only two Q's here:

The first is the surname of the sponsor. The end might be cut-off, so not sure if we can get a good guess. The occupations are almost completely missed. I try to ignore that this photo shows the photographer was creasing a page that is 150 yrs old. Some people...

The second is the priest's surname and the word after that. My guess at Fabielli is a bit of a joke. The surname can't be that. I have included many entries to give you as many examples of the priest's name and the word after. I have a good guess at the word.

I have attached a .pdf of my work and a .jpg of the original.

josephus



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:51 pm      Post subject: Re: Another easy one
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GorliceRoots wrote:
Dave,

My entry is the fourth from top: Vladislaus. I have only two Q's here:

The first is the surname of the sponsor. The end might be cut-off, so not sure if we can get a good guess. The occupations are almost completely missed. I try to ignore that this photo shows the photographer was creasing a page that is 150 yrs old. Some people...

The second is the priest's surname and the word after that. My guess at Fabielli is a bit of a joke. The surname can't be that. I have included many entries to give you as many examples of the priest's name and the word after. I have a good guess at the word.

I have attached a .pdf of my work and a .jpg of the original.

josephus


Hi Joe,

Fabielli is a good guess. What do you think about Fonzarelli instead? Seriously, the name is Zabicki, the pastor.

Katarzyna is the wife of Michał Kozłowski.

That takes care of the questions. And now for a few tidbits at no extra charge. Michael is a Third Declension noun in Latin. The Nominative of Third Decl. Nouns varies. Michael is a 3rd Decl. Nominative and so are Hedvigis, uxor, and pellio. The Genitive of each ends in “is”.Michael sometimes appears as Michaël with the diaeresis above the e. The diaeresis indicates that the e is not part of a diphthong (as it is in the First Declension Genitive Singular ending) Instead, it forms part of a separate syllable. Michaël, and similar names like Raphaël are Hebrew in origin and are descriptive. The “el” stands for God and the name means “Who is like God?” Raphaël means “God heals.” But there actually is a Latin point to this digression. The Genitive Singular of 3rd Decl. Nouns is “is” so what you read as Michaely is Michaelis.

In the Note Mayii is actually Maji. The reason is that in Classical Latin I was used to symbolize both the vowel and the consonant we know as j. Most 19th Century Latin grammars and dictionaries distinguished the vowel from the consonant by using i for the vowel and j for the consonant and thus in the name of the month the first is a consonant and the second is a vowel. Contemporary Latin grammars and dictionaries have reverted to the Classical form. What in the 19th Century appeared as Maji today is written as Maii.

A final comment on Latin Declensions—there are five of them and you can tell which is which by the Genitive Singular. Here are the Genitive Singular endings for each: 1st “ae”; 2nd “i”; 3rd “is”; 4th “us”; 5th “ei”. Fourth & Fifth Decl. Nouns appear infrequently in vital records. The most common are domus (4th)—although domus does employ some 2nd Decl. endings, but not to worry about that— and dies (5th).

I hope you are enjoying the Latin lessons.

Dave
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GorliceRoots



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Post Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:23 pm      Post subject: Where are my marbles?
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1. Hits jukebox.... AAAAAAAAAA! Thumbs up on the translation. It was a Z and not an F. Ugh!

2. I must be losing my marbles. Not sure how I put "Michaely". Obviously, you are right with Michaelis. The first two baptisms I sent recently had the correct "Michaelis".

3. The tidbits were very much appreciated, as they corrected my errors. I don't know where I got "Mayii".
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GorliceRoots



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Post Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:44 pm      Post subject: Much the same. Just a few Q's.
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Another baptism is attached: pdf of my work and jpg of the ledger page as I have it. Julianna Helena is the fifth one down.

If you could verify the occupations: laterarius = brick maker; sutor = cobbler. Note that this scribe didn't like to cross his ts for some reason.

Previously you mentioned that "P. P. Ref." was a possible reference to a religious order. I have seen P.P. many times in Irish records, which I've always seen as parochus parochiae = “pastor of the parish”.

I think this is likely because of this record, which indicates the priest as "J. Pilawski Coop". I say "coop" = Coop. loci. = cooperator loci = assistant of (this) place.

Lastly, the line after "Marianna vidua" is unknown to me. I've looked at it for hours over many days. I can't get any of it. Of course, validation of my surnames is always appreciated. THANKS.

joe



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:23 pm      Post subject:
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MikeBayko wrote:
dnowicki wrote:

Mike,

When you speak of “old Latin” I presume you are referring to Latin as used from the Late Middle Ages or later, which actually is rather “new” Latin. Certainly feel free to post the letter. However, I will not be able to tell you whether I want to devote the time required to translate it rather than to provide a summary until I see the length of the letter and determine the length of time it would take to translate it. I may not be able to get to it for a while since despite coronavirus life still does go on. Also, please post it in a format (like jpg) which would allow zooming in without sacrificing clarity.

Thanks,

Dave


Here is the front and back of the letter, it is quite long. If you chose to summarize it, and I can understand why, I must ask that you keep any possible genealogical information as true to the original text as possible.

Thank you.


Mike,

I looked at the document you posted and due to its length decided that I cannot not afford the time it would take to translate it because of more personal things, which I enjoy, occupying my time. I suggest that you might consider hiring a translator. The Latin is not difficult. It is the rather standard type of language found in royal decrees, charters, and other official documents. It is just not something I want to spend time on. Some genealogical societies maintain lists of translators for hire. I suggest that you look into hiring such a translator.

Sorry that I can’t accommodate you as you would like but I have too many other things which I need and want to accomplish to volunteer my time for this project.

Wishing you good luck,

Dave
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:27 pm      Post subject: Re: Much the same. Just a few Q's.
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GorliceRoots wrote:
Another baptism is attached: pdf of my work and jpg of the ledger page as I have it. Julianna Helena is the fifth one down.

If you could verify the occupations: laterarius = brick maker; sutor = cobbler. Note that this scribe didn't like to cross his ts for some reason.

Previously you mentioned that "P. P. Ref." was a possible reference to a religious order. I have seen P.P. many times in Irish records, which I've always seen as parochus parochiae = “pastor of the parish”.

I think this is likely because of this record, which indicates the priest as "J. Pilawski Coop". I say "coop" = Coop. loci. = cooperator loci = assistant of (this) place.

Lastly, the line after "Marianna vidua" is unknown to me. I've looked at it for hours over many days. I can't get any of it. Of course, validation of my surnames is always appreciated. THANKS.

joe


Hi Joe,

Your reading of the occupations and your translations are dead on accurate.

The line that was giving you trouble reads “Marianna vidua post p. def. Ignatium Marciszewski” which is somewhat redundant but is translated “Marianna, a widow after (i.e. surviving) the late Ignacy Marciszewski.”

I’m sure that you have seen the abbreviation P.P. (Parochus Parochiae) before in Irish records. However, in the thousands of records I’ve seen from Poland that form has never occurred. To me, that phrase seems redundant. In Polish records the name of the pastor is followed simply by “parochus” or by “parochus loci”. The addition of loci to a title was not unique to Poland, but was universal Catholic phraseology found in titles such as ordinarius loci (the ordinary of the place for a bishop), parochus loci, curatus loci, cooperator loci, administrator loci, etc. Perhaps parochus parochiae was a phrase of choice in Ireland but not so in Poland (or the USA for that matter). The priest with the initials may have been a visitor in the parish. Often members of religious orders were invited to preach at special events like parish missions, retreats, during Lent or for 40 hours devotions, etc. Since the baptism took place on April 3, 1870 and Easter Sunday was on April 17th that year my guess is that the priest was a member of a religious order invited to preach during Lent. Perhaps by checking the names of the priests who baptized other children on that page you may be able to resolve your doubts. The baptism records you’ve posted have been from between 1870 to 1875 and our old buddy the Fonz aka Zabicki was the pastor when Władysław was baptized and again when Julianna Helena was baptized (He didn’t baptize her but he did baptize others on the page.). Assistants were usually not assigned to a parish long term and “special preachers” were there for an even shorter period, but pastors were there long term—quite a few reasons for that, but it is another topic for another time. All this makes it extremely unlikely that Dionisius/Dionizy was ever the pastor in Gorlice. Your extra credit assignment is to set your doubts to rest by looking at the other records on the page when Leo was baptized.

Vale pro nunc.

Dave
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GorliceRoots



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Post Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:42 am      Post subject: 2 jobs and a surname
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Dave,

Thanks again. I have lingering Qs that I will get to soon. I will do a survey of the priests for the baptisms from 1868-1877.

The attached is the last baptism I have. There are two jobs. The one is suburbanus. I assume that is the opposite of "civis". Suburbanus, then, is a person living outside of town? My suburbanite translation is a bit tongue-in-cheek. I assume you have a better word for it.

The other job I simply can't get. (You know... I wonder if a list of jobs is in order in the same manner as your name list.)

The surname might be off by one letter. THANK YOU.

joe



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:52 pm      Post subject: Re: 2 jobs and a surname
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GorliceRoots wrote:
Dave,

Thanks again. I have lingering Qs that I will get to soon. I will do a survey of the priests for the baptisms from 1868-1877.

The attached is the last baptism I have. There are two jobs. The one is suburbanus. I assume that is the opposite of "civis". Suburbanus, then, is a person living outside of town? My suburbanite translation is a bit tongue-in-cheek. I assume you have a better word for it.

The other job I simply can't get. (You know... I wonder if a list of jobs is in order in the same manner as your name list.)

The surname might be off by one letter. THANK YOU.

joe


Hi Joe,

Your guess of the meaning of suburbanus is very good. Suburbanus, a, um is an adjective whose roots are the preposition sub (under, near, etc.) and urbs, urbis, f. city. Here suburbanus is a substantive meaning an inhabitant/person living near the city or as you wrote, a suburbanite. Evidently the family was no longer residing in the town of Gorlice itself but in the area surrounding the town.

I read the surname of the male sponsor as Slepkowicz. Not even Cicero or Virgil could figure out what his occupation is supposed to be. I tried every possible variant reading of the letters and could not recognize anything that made sense. I checked every Classical, Medieval, and ecclesiastical dictionary I own as well as the great, but still incomplete after over 75 years, dictionary of Medieval Latin as used in Poland from the 10th through the 16th Centuries—Lexicon Mediae et Infimae Latinitatis Polonorum—as well as the word list which forms the basis for the Lexicon and was not able to find anything which even resembled the word in the entry. I’m afraid that is a mystery which must remain unresolved unless you know some spiritualist who can contact the scribe.

A final comment—counting the entries from the top of the page was a good idea but the result may not be accurate. The numbers were usually a running tally for the year and since the birth & baptism took place in December my guess is that the number would be well over 100.

A few years ago I considered compiling as list of occupations and identified over 450 which should probably be included. I actually did about 50 and then left the project for another time which has never come (a likely will not happen).’

Good luck on contacting the ghost of the scribe.

Dave
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GorliceRoots



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Post Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:41 pm      Post subject: Wait... I forgot mom!
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Dave, Thanks for the above. I'm glad I wasn't alone on the occupation. The one letter looks like a backwards n. I must suffer the ignominy of a thumbs down from the Emperor here.

I stated that the previous baptism was the last, but I forgot the mother's baptism!

It is the fourth from the bottom. Just the usual occupation verification and surname verification plus 3 Q's:

1. As I wield my new Latin sword like so many gladiators in the Circus Maximus, I wonder if I am seeing what should be there and not what is. Here this comes to mind when I look at the mother. Is that an -ae diphthong to give Sophiae? Then the genitive for the father must be Francisci. Seems like I am right, though.

2. Not sure what to make of the many "coop" and "coopfes"(??) and "cooplog" references as to the priest. It's not vital, but it is confusing.

3. I think I have Teresa and Paweł relationship correct, but what is the deal with uxor? I find many sites that say uxor can mean husband or wife. Which is it?

After this, I have some questions that I have in order to file my after action report.



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Post Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:54 pm      Post subject: Re: Wait... I forgot mom!
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GorliceRoots wrote:
Dave, Thanks for the above. I'm glad I wasn't alone on the occupation. The one letter looks like a backwards n. I must suffer the ignominy of a thumbs down from the Emperor here.

I stated that the previous baptism was the last, but I forgot the mother's baptism!

It is the fourth from the bottom. Just the usual occupation verification and surname verification plus 3 Q's:

1. As I wield my new Latin sword like so many gladiators in the Circus Maximus, I wonder if I am seeing what should be there and not what is. Here this comes to mind when I look at the mother. Is that an -ae diphthong to give Sophiae? Then the genitive for the father must be Francisci. Seems like I am right, though.

2. Not sure what to make of the many "coop" and "coopfes"(??) and "cooplog" references as to the priest. It's not vital, but it is confusing.

3. I think I have Teresa and Paweł relationship correct, but what is the deal with uxor? I find many sites that say uxor can mean husband or wife. Which is it?

After this, I have some questions that I have in order to file my after action report.


Hi Joe,

Here are some answers.

1. The mother’s name is entered as Sophia (Nom. Case) and NOT Sophiae (Gen. Case). Her father is entered as Francisci (Gen. Case). The name of the father and of the mother of the child always are in the Nominative. Perhaps it would help to view the Nominative and Genitive Cases from the perspective of what questions the cases answer. The Nominative answers the question “Who?” and the Genitive answers the question “Whose” or “Of whom”. The mother's and the father
s columns ask “Who is the mother/or the father?” The answer comes back in the Nominative “Sophia” for the mother. The next question in the column for the mother is “Whose daughter is she?” The answer comes back “(She is the daughter) of Franciszek or in Latin “Francisci”—The Genitive Case is the Case for that answer. In later records both the father and the mother answer the question and names of both the father and the mother are in the Genitive.

2. The abbreviation for cooperator may appear to be different in some entries but that is just a question of handwriting and how the scribe wrote the abbreviation. It always stands for the same word, cooperator/assistant. There is no great Latin mystery so don’t sweat the handwriting and transcribe it as cooperator and translate it as assistant (priest/pastor). The scribe didn’t overthink what he was writing and you shouldn’t either.

3. It is Teressia uxor Pauli Zacharyasz = Teresa the wife of Paweł Zacharyasz. However, Paweł was the weaver, not both he and Teresa. Pauli is Gen. Singular and textoris (also Gen. Sing.) stand in apposition to each other, not to both husband and wife. Uxor, uxoris, f. is not a gender neutral noun. It is Feminine in Gender and thus means “wife”. Like so many words in various languages, including English, a noun can have several synonyms. The English translation of uxor can be “wife” but it can also be “consort” or “spouse”. However, the English translation consort or spouse can only be female when those nouns are used as synonyms for uxor. The masculine equivalent of uxor is maritus, i, m., husband. There is an adjective derived from uxor—uxoratus—which is applied to a man to denote him as married, but that is not part of your question. The bottom line is that to say that uxor can mean either husband or wife is to err.

Indeed, the pastor tasked his assistant with doing most of the baptisms and much could be said about the relationship between a pastor and his assistant(s) and how the sacramental tasks were divided but that is a different topic. The assistant’s name was Bartholomeus Zarzycki/Bartłomiej Zarzycki.

Like they used to say in the cartoons, “That’s all (for today), Folks.”

Dave
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GorliceRoots



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Post Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:12 pm      Post subject: Superb
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It made no sense to me that Sophia would be Sophiae. It surely must be Sophia (nominative) - even if it's a sloppy "a".

Somehow this slipped through the cracks... In the marriage record that we saw before, the indication is given before Antoni's father as "p. def.". (Attached again, bottom entry.) Do you agree that it is "p. def.", not "p. del."? I know his father was dead before the wedding, but... I have looked everywhere for a straight answer, and I can't find one. I have found here:
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Latin_Genealogical_Word_List#Days_of_the_Week

and here http://www.genealogy.ro/dictionary/lat_eng_p.htm

that "p. def." stands for "predefunctus" = predeceased, or literally "before dead". Id est, "dead before (the wedding)". Is "predefunctus" a good Latin word?

Sometimes, I have read, “p. del.” is used, and this stands for post delictus (for a man) / post delicta (for a woman) or abbreviated p.d., meaning, in essence, deceased.

You have probably gathered by now that I don't do "in essence". You also mentioned that you don't like slavish adherence in your translations. I agree for the final product, but it helps me to first know the literal translation. Then, a more current English translation can be made.

Thus, what do you give for the Latin words and the literal translations and "easy on the ears" translations for the following: "p. def.", "post delictus", "post delicta", even "p.d." - which could apply to both.

Thank you again.

josephus



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Post Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:55 pm      Post subject: Re: Superb
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GorliceRoots wrote:
It made no sense to me that Sophia would be Sophiae. It surely must be Sophia (nominative) - even if it's a sloppy "a".

Somehow this slipped through the cracks... In the marriage record that we saw before, the indication is given before Antoni's father as "p. def.". (Attached again, bottom entry.) Do you agree that it is "p. def.", not "p. del."? I know his father was dead before the wedding, but... I have looked everywhere for a straight answer, and I can't find one. I have found here:
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Latin_Genealogical_Word_List#Days_of_the_Week

and here http://www.genealogy.ro/dictionary/lat_eng_p.htm

that "p. def." stands for "predefunctus" = predeceased, or literally "before dead". Id est, "dead before (the wedding)". Is "predefunctus" a good Latin word?

Sometimes, I have read, “p. del.” is used, and this stands for post delictus (for a man) / post delicta (for a woman) or abbreviated p.d., meaning, in essence, deceased.

You have probably gathered by now that I don't do "in essence". You also mentioned that you don't like slavish adherence in your translations. I agree for the final product, but it helps me to first know the literal translation. Then, a more current English translation can be made.

Thus, what do you give for the Latin words and the literal translations and "easy on the ears" translations for the following: "p. def.", "post delictus", "post delicta", even "p.d." - which could apply to both.

Thank you again.

josephus


Hi Joe,

I’ll try to answer your questions/concerns/thoughts/comments one at a time in a manner which I hope will clarify things for you. I’ll number them and answer each individually and finally give you an example of why word for word literal translations often don't work without taking into account the reality that every language uses idiomatic expressions which often don’t and can’t transfer from one language to another verbatim.

1. Yes, the abbreviation is p. def.

2. The adjective listed as predefunctus is a misspelling. The correct spelling of the adjective is praedefunctus, a, um. It does mean predeceased or dead beforehand. The abbreviation p. def. CAN stand for praedefunctus (or in the record the form would be praedefuncti [Genitive Case since it would modify Vincentii]). HOWEVER, praedefunctus is usually found only in birth records where the father died before the child was born, but not more than about 9 months prior to the birth. This was an important consideration to determine legitimacy vs. illegitimacy.

3. P.del. For post delictus/delicta is like a one eyed, one horned, purple people eater—it only exists in someone’s fertile imagination or as the scholastic philosophers would say, it is “sine fundamento in re/without foundation in reality”. The theory has multiple major problems. The Latin preposition “post” governs the Accusative Case so the forms would need to be “delictum” and “delictam”. Even more importantly, as a adjective, it would be the Perfect Passive Participle (Remember that participles are verbal adjectives.) of the verb delinquo, delinquere, deliqui, delictum, to fail, to be wanting, to commit a crime. There is no connection between the verb and death. The idea of connecting the theory to the abbreviation in the marriage record MUST be discarded.

4. The abbreviations p.def. and p.d. stand for the same two words—post (after) & defunctum (the deceased) and were used when naming a survivor of the dead person. That is how the abbreviation is used in the marriage record. So the translation is “the son of the deceased...” or “the son (surviving) after the deceased...” This leads to the final point in the current exercise—the concept of idiomatic expressions and how to translate them.

5. An idiom is an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning conventionally understood by native speakers. This meaning is different from the literal meaning of the idiom's individual elements. Idiomatic expressions arise in several ways: from slang, in relation to specific activities, or from the nature and/or structure of the language itself. An example of an idiom from slang would be “Can you break a sawbuck?” An example of an idiom connected to a specific activity, in this case baseball, would be: “He drew a base on balls, stole second, advanced to third on a sacrifice fly to right, and came home on a passed ball.” Those words when taken literally result in a meaning which is far removed from what the expressions actually are meant to convey. The English expression “How do you do?” and the Polish expression “Jak się pan ma?" or "Jak się masz?” are examples of idiomatic expressions which arise from the grammatical structure of each language. Since idioms convey a meaning different from the literal meaning of the words they cannot be translated literally if one wants to capture their actual meaning. Hence the danger and futility of trying to give a literal translation from one language to another without having a good grounding in both languages. Thus, translation can in a very real sense be considered an art—or as the Fonz would say: “It’s a gift.”

Here is an example of a short Latin sentence which does not make much sense when translated literally. It was used in some marriage registers in Catholic parishes in the USA during the 1930s and 1940s. The attached image is from the 1940 record of the marriage of my parents. The priest who officiated at the wedding was my mother’s eldest brother. The pastor who entered the record in the register was John (Joannes) Lange, whose parents were Poles from the region of Poland known as Kashubia—hence the surname Lange. He was the pastor of the parish from 1915 until his death in 1960 and I remember him very well. Here is the sentence with the English meaning of the words found there. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to translate the sentence.

Here is the text: “Rem ita se habere testor.”
And to make life easy, the meaning of the individual words: Rem (Accusative Singular of res, rei, f. thing, matter, affair, circumstance, etc.); ita (adverb) so, thus, in this fashion; se (reflexive pronoun, meaning in this sentence) itself; habere (present infinitive active of the verb habeo) to have; testor (1st person singular present indicative active of the verb testor, testari, to attest, make known, etc. (testor is a deponent verb, a group of verbs which “lay aside” their active forms and use passive forms with an active (or neutral) voice meaning.) Your mission/challenge is to make sense of the sentence. If it doesn’t workout for you, I’ll explain later.

Accepting the mission should help to clarify why translations cannot always be done literally.

Good luck with the mission.

Dave



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GorliceRoots



Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

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Post Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:27 pm      Post subject: Here goes nothin'
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Accusative ~ direct object, so I make rem the direct object. 1st person active gives "I make known...". So, I propose for your amusement (I did not plagiarize below - obviously):

To have in this fashion, I make known (this) matter itself. (Even Ares might laugh at this, and he was a bit ornery.)

Thanks for the praedefunctus notes. I had that quite jumbled. There is much on the internet that is simply incorrect. I know how it happens, though. People look it up, they see "post delicta" = deceased, and then they move on. They never question. They never verify. The death of intellectual curiosity has NOT been greatly exaggerated.
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JGwizdowski
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Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Replies: 215
Location: United States

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:14 am      Post subject: Simon Lula Marriage 1855
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Greetings!

Would greatly appreciate help in a proper translation of the attached marriage record of my g.g.grandfather from 1855. They are listed at Rec #4.

Thank you!



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Rec #4: Syzmon Lula and Anna ?
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JGwizdowski
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Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:45 am      Post subject: Johannes Lula Marriage 1819
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One more request for a proper translation of the attached marriage record from 1819.

These are my 3rd g.grandparents, listed at record number 8.

Thank you so much!
Joe



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Rec # 8 Lula
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