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James
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Joined: 06 Jul 2007
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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: prussian border

I recently recieved copies of my g g grandfathers 1st marriage cert. On it , it states he was born in Bielawy, Prussia. I've been told that there are many, many, Bielawys in Prussia and Poland. So I'm researching that now, but a question I have is ;
Can anyone tell me where the border of Prussia and Poland was exactly, in 1850's and earlier. My g g grandfather was born apox. 1825
I'm looking for the border in the Torun / Wloclawek area, to determine if Wloclawek was considered Prussia, or Poland. This will help me with determining which Bielawy may be the birthplace.
There were/are 3 Bielawys in the Wloclawek area that I've been informed about, but was that Prussia or Poland is the question.
I've seen many maps on line, but unfortunitly, the print is too small too tell exactly were the border is. Sometimes it seems the border is west of Torun, other times it appears to be east of Wloclawek. I will continue to look at maps, but will welcome any advice.

Thanks
james

Zenon
PolishOrigins Team Leader

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Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:32 am Post subject:

Hi James,

I took for you picture of a part of Polish Kingdom (Russia) and Prussia border which shaped after Congress of Vienna in 1815 and stayed unchanged until 1914.

Source of map and Copyrights: Wielki Atlas Historyczny, Wydawnictwo Demart Sp. z o.o., Warszawa 2005

Using the map http://mapa.szukacz.pl/ which you write about in topic 'interactive Poland map' http://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?p=224#224 and comparing it with the map above I have found at least six Bielawys which were within the borders of Prussia and at the same time not so far away from Wloclawek...
The closest to Wloclawek is a small village nearby Torun (now in fact, district of Torun), click here: http://mapa.szukacz.pl/?&n=574175&e=479549&z=128m&m=Bielawy (Toruń)&t=

The other Bielawys are located:
- http://mapa.szukacz.pl/?&n=601936&e=482710&z=128m&m=Bielawy&t=
- http://mapa.szukacz.pl/?&n=585697&e=435039&z=128m&m=Bielawy(Bydgoszcz)&t= part of Bydgoszcz
- http://mapa.szukacz.pl/?&n=552787&e=433335&z=128m&m=Bielawy&t=

There a few more villages by that name located a little farer west.

I have checked that Bielawy nearby Torun in 19th century belonged to Kaszczorek parish and Bielawy nearby Bydgoszcz to Bydgoszcz parish.

Unfortunately, according to State Archives database for Kaszczorek parish there are only Alegata records for years 1824-1896 in State Archives in Torun.

As for Bydgoszcz parish, Roman Catholic records (babtism, marriage and death certificates) for year 1808-1874 (with two 4 - years gaps) are kept in Bydgoszcz State Archives.

Links to all of the archives you can find here: http://polishorigins.com/document/links (State Archives branches link).

Hope it helps for a start in the next stage your genealogical journey Smile

Last edited by Zenon on Tue May 06, 2008 4:32 am; edited 1 time in total

James
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject:

Thanks Zenon, for your latest info concerning my question about Prussian border. The map you found is very clear, and shows me exactly what I needed. I feel confident in continuing my family search, even thought it now enters into a new territory.
james

Zenon
PolishOrigins Team Leader

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Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:28 am Post subject:

Zenon wrote:

Unfortunately, according to State Archives database for Kaszczorek parish there are only Alegata records for years 1824-1896 in State Archives in Torun.

I have also checked Archdiocese Archives in Torun in search of records from Kaszczorek parish and... this is what they have stored there:

- baptism records for years 1789-1930
- marriage records for years 1789-1928
- death records for years 1789-1952.

Unfortunately, unlike State Archives, priests "working" in Church Archives do not accept orders for performing research. You (or someone on your behalf) have to be there personally to look through the parish books...

And still, this is only a guess that Kaszczorek is the parish where your ancestor was born.

Tha'ts why I think, the best way to proceed now is to ask in Wloclawek State Archives for alegat to the first marriage certificate of your g g grandfather from 1850. I have checked that they have alegata records for years 1826-1833, 1835-1903 Exclamation

Who knows, maybe you would learn from it more than the name of village of birth of your forefather.

Alegat (plural Alegata) is an old name of a document which is an annex (enclosure), a base of issuing the main document. Primary, the term was used in wider meaning, currently is narrowed down to marriage documents. In alegata there are usually abstracts of baptism certificates of spouses, and in the case of widows or widowers there can be also death certificates of late (previous) spouse. It is a chance that you will also find in alegata:
- documents about banns
- death certificates of parents of bride or groom
- notes related to property issues.

BobK
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Joined: 11 Nov 2008
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Location: Portland, Oregon USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject:

I just found this forum, hope James is still following this..

James: What religion was your g g grandfather? If Catholic, then Zenon has answered you..

If, since you mention Prussia, he was "Evangelical" or Lutheran, then the EVANGELICAL ARCHIVES in Berlin will likely have your information. http://ezab.de

Give them his name, his village/town and approx birth year. They do charge for research, but I emailed my grandfather's name, the nearby town he gave when he emigrated, birth year (off by 2 years), and in less than 24 hours, got back not only his birth, his town, his parents name, his correct birthday, but also 8 siblings (6 I didn't even know), my g grandmother's death, and my g grandfather's remarraige! .. The names and birth,death & remarriage years were emailed. They sent the copies by mail and then asked for the two hours fee (95 Euros) after I got the packet...

Zenon: Did you get your Prussia/Poland border map at an online web site? I'd love to see the rest of that area as my relatives and many other families with the same surname lived around Lipno back in the 19th century!

I've been using the map I mentioned in that other forum, the very large map(s) at http://igrek.amzp.pl/mapindex.php?cat=WIG100 as those maps have more detail and date to the 1930s. But, because of so much detail I need an interactive map to narrow down the area to search.

Bob K.

James
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Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:09 am Post subject:

Thanks Bob,
My family was Catholic, but I wish that they were Lutheran, because of your success in searching.
The Catholic parish archive in Torun informed me that they do not do " on demand " searches, just what Zenon said.
The archive in Wloclawek had info that my g g grandfather, and my g g g grandparents, lived in Bielawy, Prussia. It was a guess on my part, that the Bialwy town I'm looking for might be in Torun area, since it is the first city in Prussia, when you go west from Wloclawek. I had also contacted Bydgoszcz archive, the next city west of Torun, but they said there are 6 - 7 Bielawy in the city area, and they needed more info. So I'm at a standstill now.
The city / town of Grudzadz has been mentioned in some documents, as a location of Cybulskcy. So I may contact them in the near future.

It is a good map, that Zenon posted, of the Poland - Prussia border.

Zenon
PolishOrigins Team Leader

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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:53 am Post subject:

BobK wrote:

Zenon: Did you get your Prussia/Poland border map at an online web site? I'd love to see the rest of that area as my relatives and many other families with the same surname lived around Lipno back in the 19th century!

Here you are: http://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?t=248 Smile

lindqm2

Joined: 12 Jan 2020
Replies: 58

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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject:

I found this map from 1866 that shows the Prussian boarder at Nieszawa. I just thought I'd add this if it helps anyone.

https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/Prussia2-johnson-1866

MikeP

Joined: 27 Apr 2020
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Location: Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:54 pm Post subject: Prussian border

Another good source is the 1907 Illustrated Geographic Atlas of the Congress Kingdom of Poland. It is available on the internet Polish Genealogical Source which can be accessed from the Polish Genealogical Society of America’s website. I used this atlas to estimate the distance from Chrostkowo in Russian Poland to Golub-Dobryzń which was on the Prussian border.

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