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Latin records translations
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jamiku



Joined: 03 Jun 2020
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Post Posted: 6 Days ago at 8:08 pm      Post subject:
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Would it be possible to translate this record?

Thank you



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a4u2fear



Joined: 25 Oct 2019
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Post Posted: 6 Days ago at 8:44 am      Post subject:
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hi dave

thanks for that death notice, very interesting indeed. I was able to find alexander and ferdinand's births to confirm as you stated.

i have attached two images
-one is the marriage of rosina harter and abraham staad (top left)
-the other is supposedly a reference to it? It's on the left and is smaller than the others. I don't understand it. It appears to list Rosina's brother (Ferdinand, i assume because her father was dead), and Abraham's father who was Abraham

I guess my question is I don't understand why that abbreviated marriage or reference to it exists. Do you have any ideas?



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Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Post Posted: 6 Days ago at 10:14 am      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
hi dave

thanks for that death notice, very interesting indeed. I was able to find alexander and ferdinand's births to confirm as you stated.

i have attached two images
-one is the marriage of rosina harter and abraham staad (top left)
-the other is supposedly a reference to it? It's on the left and is smaller than the others. I don't understand it. It appears to list Rosina's brother (Ferdinand, i assume because her father was dead), and Abraham's father who was Abraham

I guess my question is I don't understand why that abbreviated marriage or reference to it exists. Do you have any ideas?


Your image 120 is the one I told you about yesterday. It leads you to the marriage we saw after the list of deaths. Please go look at my post from Friday, 1:04 pm. It has two images. See how they are the folio 311 and 312 that this image 120 refers to ?
Sophia
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 1983
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: 5 Days ago at 4:49 pm      Post subject:
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jamiku wrote:
Would it be possible to translate this record?

Thank you


Hi,

Images posted in PNG format do not allow me to zoom in on the image and make the text easier to see and read. Please post the image in jpg or another format which supports enlarging the image and I will look at it tomorrow (Monday) evening as time permits.

Thanks.

Dave
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Post Posted: 5 Days ago at 5:03 pm      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
hi dave

thanks for that death notice, very interesting indeed. I was able to find alexander and ferdinand's births to confirm as you stated.

i have attached two images
-one is the marriage of rosina harter and abraham staad (top left)
-the other is supposedly a reference to it? It's on the left and is smaller than the others. I don't understand it. It appears to list Rosina's brother (Ferdinand, i assume because her father was dead), and Abraham's father who was Abraham

I guess my question is I don't understand why that abbreviated marriage or reference to it exists. Do you have any ideas?


Hi Andrew & Sophia,

Much of the confusion surrounding the entries originates from an error made by placing the marriage of Ferdinand and that of his sister Rosina immediately after the final death & burial record for 1756 (i.e. that of Barbara, the girl found dead in the water near the mill). My thought that the location was an attempt to save space was an error on my part. For some strange reason I had the idea that the records were being kept in the same format as those in Russian controlled Poland (Królestwo Polskiego) with births, marriages, and deaths all in the same register. That was not the case. Evidently separate registers were kept for baptisms, marriages, and deaths, which was the common procedure for Catholic Sacramental records.

Something which makes my head spin is referring to images in terms of “record image #...” I presume this is because that is how the images are identified on Family Search. Personally, I find it easier to identify them by the page number found in the register. The Latin words folium and pagina are both words which come from the Classical Latin of Antiquity and often are used interchangeably but I find pagina to be the much more straightforward of the two. The base meaning of folium is “leaf” and it only means “page” by metonymy whereas the base meaning of pagina is “page”. But who really cares what I prefer. Anyway, I’ll refer to the records by the page on which they are found.

The entries of the two marriages (that of Ferdinand and that of his sister) are found on pages 311 & 312 of what appears to be the parish death & burial register. The entry on page 218 appears to be from the parish marriage register. The best way I can describe the entry is that it is an edit or, as often is found in early editions of scholarly works, a list of errata (errors). The entry is a notation or edit which gives more details of the legalities omitted in the entries on pages 311 & 312 and contains an explanation of how those marriage records came to be found in the death and burial register. The notation directly below the arrow in the left margin refers to another marriage and is not part of the entry for Ferdinand and his brother-in-law Abraham. The entry for them is “Duos dimissos...folio 311 et 312”. Here is the translation: “The two relinquished*, namely Ferdinand Harter and Abraham Staad and the two married #** in the year 1757 on the 10th day of January or inserted in the death register in error on pages 311 and 312.” (Three marriages, all celebrated on January 10, were entered in the death register. After the 3rd marriage entry the entries switch back to deaths.)

Notes: *dimissos/relinquished: A technical term explained in the translation of the 1782 marriage of Ferdinand, Jr. (or Ferdinand II, if you prefer).
**#: I have no idea why the sign was inserted before the date.

A few additional tidbits...The days on which the banns were promulgated provide some background info regarding practices of the Roman Catholic Church in Germany during the 18th Century. Besides the formal relinquishment (something not done in the USA) we learn something about the days on which Catholics were required to go to Mass besides Sundays (what are referred to as “Holy Days of Obligation”). Those "Holy Days" varied and still vary from country to country. (The USA has fewer than many other countries.) Some “Holy Days of Obligation” in 18th Century Germany were the Feast of St. Stephen (Dec. 26, when good king Wenceslaus came to town) and the Feast of the Circumcision (January1) and the Feast of the Epiphany (January 6). We know that these were “Holy Days of Obligation” because the banns were announced on days when the members of the parish were expected to be at Mass. From Ferdinand’s birth and baptism in 1762 (which Sophia found) we learn that the parish church was under the patronage of St. Bartholomew the Apostle. None of these tidbits are of earthshaking importance but they do help provide some context in which the individuals lived their lives.

I hope all this helps to clarify matters.

Dave
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Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Post Posted: 4 Days ago at 4:48 am      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:
a4u2fear wrote:
hi dave

thanks for that death notice, very interesting indeed. I was able to find alexander and ferdinand's births to confirm as you stated.

i have attached two images
-one is the marriage of rosina harter and abraham staad (top left)
-the other is supposedly a reference to it? It's on the left and is smaller than the others. I don't understand it. It appears to list Rosina's brother (Ferdinand, i assume because her father was dead), and Abraham's father who was Abraham

I guess my question is I don't understand why that abbreviated marriage or reference to it exists. Do you have any ideas?


Hi Andrew & Sophia,

Much of the confusion surrounding the entries originates from an error made by placing the marriage of Ferdinand and that of his sister Rosina immediately after the final death & burial record for 1756 (i.e. that of Barbara, the girl found dead in the water near the mill). My thought that the location was an attempt to save space was an error on my part. For some strange reason I had the idea that the records were being kept in the same format as those in Russian controlled Poland (Królestwo Polskiego) with births, marriages, and deaths all in the same register. That was not the case. Evidently separate registers were kept for baptisms, marriages, and deaths, which was the common procedure for Catholic Sacramental records.

Something which makes my head spin is referring to images in terms of “record image #...” I presume this is because that is how the images are identified on Family Search. Personally, I find it easier to identify them by the page number found in the register. The Latin words folium and pagina are both words which come from the Classical Latin of Antiquity and often are used interchangeably but I find pagina to be the much more straightforward of the two. The base meaning of folium is “leaf” and it only means “page” by metonymy whereas the base meaning of pagina is “page”. But who really cares what I prefer. Anyway, I’ll refer to the records by the page on which they are found.

The entries of the two marriages (that of Ferdinand and that of his sister) are found on pages 311 & 312 of what appears to be the parish death & burial register. The entry on page 218 appears to be from the parish marriage register. The best way I can describe the entry is that it is an edit or, as often is found in early editions of scholarly works, a list of errata (errors). The entry is a notation or edit which gives more details of the legalities omitted in the entries on pages 311 & 312 and contains an explanation of how those marriage records came to be found in the death and burial register. The notation directly below the arrow in the left margin refers to another marriage and is not part of the entry for Ferdinand and his brother-in-law Abraham. The entry for them is “Duos dimissos...folio 311 et 312”. Here is the translation: “The two relinquished*, namely Ferdinand Harter and Abraham Staad and the two married #** in the year 1757 on the 10th day of January or inserted in the death register in error on pages 311 and 312.” (Three marriages, all celebrated on January 10, were entered in the death register. After the 3rd marriage entry the entries switch back to deaths.)

Notes: *dimissos/relinquished: A technical term explained in the translation of the 1782 marriage of Ferdinand, Jr. (or Ferdinand II, if you prefer).
**#: I have no idea why the sign was inserted before the date.

A few additional tidbits...The days on which the banns were promulgated provide some background info regarding practices of the Roman Catholic Church in Germany during the 18th Century. Besides the formal relinquishment (something not done in the USA) we learn something about the days on which Catholics were required to go to Mass besides Sundays (what are referred to as “Holy Days of Obligation”). Those "Holy Days" varied and still vary from country to country. (The USA has fewer than many other countries.) Some “Holy Days of Obligation” in 18th Century Germany were the Feast of St. Stephen (Dec. 26, when good king Wenceslaus came to town) and the Feast of the Circumcision (January1) and the Feast of the Epiphany (January 6). We know that these were “Holy Days of Obligation” because the banns were announced on days when the members of the parish were expected to be at Mass. From Ferdinand’s birth and baptism in 1762 (which Sophia found) we learn that the parish church was under the patronage of St. Bartholomew the Apostle. None of these tidbits are of earthshaking importance but they do help provide some context in which the individuals lived their lives.

I hope all this helps to clarify matters.

Dave


Hi Dave,
Great explanation! I always learn a lot from what you write.
I am going to bow out of this conversation, now.
Best,
Sophia
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a4u2fear



Joined: 25 Oct 2019
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Post Posted: Yesterday at 3:53 pm      Post subject:
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dave

your explanation makes it crystal clear. thanks as always

i attached two deaths from Rulzheim Germersheim Bayern Germany

i am having trouble reading how old the kids are

michael hoffman (2nd down right side)

franciska hoffman (top left)



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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Yesterday at 12:38 pm      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
dave

your explanation makes it crystal clear. thanks as always

i attached two deaths from Rulzheim Germersheim Bayern Germany

i am having trouble reading how old the kids are

michael hoffman (2nd down right side)

franciska hoffman (top left)


Hi Andrew,

The death that you identified as of Michael Hoffman is actually that of his unnamed daughter. She was less than one hour old when she died. It appears that she was alive only for a few minutes. She seems to have been born in such distress that the midwife baptized her without giving her a name.

Here is the translation

The writing in the left margin reads: “the infant little girl of Michael Hoffman, November 6,1760. The body of the entry reads: “In the year as above on the 6th day of the month of November a female child, the daughter of the marriage of Michael Hoffman, a burger and the miller of the lower mill and of Francesca/Frances Magdalena Schmidt was born at the point of death and was baptized of necessity by the sworn midwife and in that hour died and on the following day of the same month and year was buried by me, the undersigned pastor, in the presence of the father and the grandfather, who signed below with me.
On the Left: Signature of the father and signature of the maternal grandfather.
On the Right: Signature of pastor.

The 1778 record is of the death of Michael’s wife, not of his child. She was 38 years and 37 days old at the time of her death. Here is the translation.
“In the year 1778 on the 12th day of the month of November, after having been fortified with all the Sacraments* at the 7th hour of the night died and was buried on the 14th day of the same month by Rev. Wilhelm (can’t read surname), the vicar** of the parish, /with me being present and conducting the final burial committal/ in the cemetery, Francisca/Frances Magdalena born Schmidt. While she lived she was the wife of Michael Hoffman, burger and miller. She died at the age of 38 years and 37 days. The husband and (illegible word) were present.

Left Side: signature of widower Michael Hoffman & another signature
Right Side: Signature of the pastor

Notes: *All the Sacraments: Confession, Communion under the form of Viaticum and Extreme Unction (now known as the Anointing of the Sick). These 3 Sacraments were known collectively as “The Last Rites”.
**vicar: The assistant priest of the parish

Both of these entries were written in the passive voice and each is one long sentence with a series of subordinate clauses. This results in a rather clumsy text in English. As much as possible I tried to maintain the Latin order in the translation although that was not always possible. In the 1778 record I broke the English into several sentences for the sake of clarity.

I hope you find this informative.

Wishing you a good holiday weekend,

Dave
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a4u2fear



Joined: 25 Oct 2019
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Post Posted: 23 hours ago at 1:04 pm      Post subject:
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wow dave. Just as I was thinking I was getting pretty good at these I make a couple of mistakes. At least, in my defense, I had both of these labeled as strange enough to present them to you.

I have tomorrow of from work so long weekend for me. Hope you enjoy yours as well.

Thanks as always this makes it extremely clear now as I was confused earlier.

Andrew
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