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dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Latin translation Acta Nobilitae

jozsue89 wrote:

Hi!
I want to know the longer pictures text translation of the f91 and f14! thnx!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dPowSVjgs3oBQd_IbRLmx-V_Vrhdk4-0?usp=sharing

Hi,

I regret to inform you that I am unable to donate the amount of time needed to translate the court/legal nobility documents you requested.

Sorry that I’ll not be able to help you.

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:46 pm Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

dave

can you please translate the bottom right hand side baptizing of Susanna Elizabeth Schmitt? 1760 in Pfalz Germany (Kuebelberg) Have a nice weekend!

Thanks.

Hi Andrew,

One of the upsides of being retired as I am is that every day is part of a long weekend. I find that to be very enjoyable. If Cicero were still alive that may have been one of the pluses he could have added to his philosophical essay De Senectute (Concerning Old Age). Although he was not really an original philosophical thinker, he makes some good points in the essay.

On to practical matters...Despite the information you provided I was not able to get a good handle on the geography of the parish villages. It appears that contemporary spellings like on Google Maps are different from those of the 18th Century. I cannot say that my interpretation is correct. Then there is the problem of the terms used to identify the status/occupation of the noble father, Francis Karl Schmit. I cannot identify the letters used in the two words which immediately follow his name. Here is a bit of a background explanation. Classical Latin had a vocabulary of about 35,000 words. The number of words found in Post-Classical Latin increased exponentially. After WWI an international group of Medieval Latin scholars decided to produce a lexicon of all the Medieval Latin words used in the writings of the countries of Europe. Soon it became clear that the scope of the project was unmanageable and thus scholars from the individual countries decided to work on dictionaries of Latin as it was used in each individual country. Here it is 100 years later and the lexicon for Polish Medieval Latin is still a work in progress. (Currently at the letter T.) My personal experience with Medieval Latin primarily concentrated on the Latin of the British Isles, Poland, France, and Spain. My exposure to Latin used in what is now Germany was limited to the writings of Caesarius of Heisterbach, the poetry/songs of university students found in the Carmina Burana, a manuscript found in the library of a monastery in Germany, and some minor chronicles. The bottom line is that I’m not able to even offer a educated guess regarding those two words. Thus my lack of familiarity with the vocabulary as used in Germany.

Anyway, here follows my best reading and translation of the birth and baptism record.

Dave

Left Margin: Missau(?)
Body of Entry:
In the Year of Our Lord 1760 on the 14th of April in the village of Nieder Missau(?) in the house of Steinmann the noble Susanna Elisabeth Schmit, the legitimate daughter of the noble Francis Karl Schmit (illegible word) of the royal (illegible word) Regiment(?) Ba??? at that time journeying from Belgium to Saxony and of Maria Beatrice Grübaur(?) /according as (their) earlier daughter was baptized in Brussels (illegible word)/. Those lifting her up from the Sacred Font* were the noble sir/lord Joseph Christopher De?met, an officer of the said regiment, and his wife Susanna Elizabeth (illegible maiden name). J.J. S??? baptized (her).

Note: *Levantibus e S(acro) Fonte/Those lifting (her) up from the Holy Font: a circumlocution for sponsors/godparents.

Sophia
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject:

dnowicki wrote:

a4u2fear wrote:

dave

can you please translate the bottom right hand side baptizing of Susanna Elizabeth Schmitt? 1760 in Pfalz Germany (Kuebelberg) Have a nice weekend!

Thanks.

Hi Dave,
I wonder if the Regiment Ba??? is Regiment Bayreuth. Your Grübaur looks good to me.
Best,
Sophia

a4u2fear

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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:14 am Post subject:

thanks dave and sophia....

this family was a moving one for me that's why this translation is so important.

in 1799 one of their sons, Charles, gets married in Wittring and it says he was born in Brussels

I was lucky enough to find this baptism of his parents with another child in Kubelberg.

I'm a tad confused when you said "as their earlier daughter was baptised in Brussels." Does this mean Susanna Elizabeth is their second daughter and they have a first daugther that was baptised in Brussels? Or is this part of the confusion behind the latin?

Maybe he was travelling so much because of being in the Regiment of Bayreuth......

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:31 pm Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Hi Andrew & Sophia,

Sophia’s reading of the name of the regiment appears dead on accurate. Since I never had any real interest in the 18th Century Holy Roman Empire and very little knowledge of the states of which it was composed that name would never have occurred to me. To increase the amount of trivia which rattles around in my head I did a bit of research and learned some things which I find interesting. The Bayreuth Regiment participated in the American Revolution as auxiliaries of the British army. Here are two links which you may find interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_American_Revolution
and https://www.nps.gov/york/learn/historyculture/german-auxiliary-units-at-yorktown.htm

The attached map of the Holy Roman Empire from 1789 helped me better understand the movement of the family from Brussels to Saxony. I don’t know that what I learned will have any import for me personally unless I can get my wife to play Trivial Pursuit with me. It could be profitable should she be willing to lay some serious cash down on the outcome. Ha, Ha.

To the Latin question about the older daughter and the record in general...The record is a bit unorthodox both in its Latinity and its content. The record is in the passive voice although the active is usually preferred. Perhaps the passive was the more common style in Germanic countries than in other parts of Europe, but that I cannot say. There are also some peculiarities in morphology which would usually be considered errors. The section about the elder daughter is a case in point. The priest included the remark in parentheses, but why include it at all? Beginning the remark with the conjunction prout/just as/according as is rather awkward. The form prioris is actually the Genitive of the adjective prior, prius. It appears that the priest took the adjective to be a three termination (masc. prior, fem. prioris, neuter prius) rather than a two termination (both masc. & fem. prior and neuter prius) adjective. I suppose that can be overlooked in that prior is an irregular adjective which lacks the positive degree and only employs the comparative and the superlative (primus/the first is the superlative). This leads to a confession, which is said to be good for the soul. I wrote that the final word within the parenthesis was illegible and that is only partially true, but is not a lie but rather is a mystery (As one of the “Fathers of the Church” wrote while explaining how Jacob through deception stole the birthright of his brother, “non est menadcium, est misterium”. I wrote what I wrote (like Pilate’s “scripsi quod scripsi”) because I am loath to write something of which I am uncertain. I am certain that the final word (ending in “fert”) is a compound of the irregular verb fero, ferre, tuli, latum, to bring/to bear. Fert is the third person singular, an irregular form which lacks a vowel before the personal ending—something rare in Latin verbs. I am uncertain about the prefix of the compound form. It makes most sense to me that the prefix is “re” and that the form is “refert” (bring back/return). It is what makes sense but the first letter doesn’t look like “r” and hence “illegible”. If one accepts the word as “refert” then the sentence would be in clearer English “The elder daughter, baptized in Brussels, returned (with her parents).” The bottom line is that Susanna Elizabeth had an older sister who had been baptized (& presumably born) in Brussels before the family embarked on the journey to Saxony.

I hope this helps and puts doubts to rest.

Dave

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Sophia
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Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:09 am Post subject:

Hi Dave,
Excellent map! It must have been an arduous journey for the family, especially for the mother.
I followed the links you provided and was interested to learn the difference between auxiliary soldiers and mercenary soldiers - - that should certainly be among the questions in Trivial Pursuit: The History-Relevant-to-Genealogy Edition.
All the best for a good start to this week,
Sophia

a4u2fear

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Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:40 am Post subject:

thanks dave for the additional research. It will hopefully help me find the family in Belgium, the more clues the better. I guess I am lucky that this entry contained this much information on the baptism; seems unusual.

OFF TO BELGIUM!

a4u2fear

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Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:42 am Post subject:

Sophia wrote:

and this is one of my first relatives that has been in some sort of army or militia so i've got some work to do. thanks both of you for the info

a4u2fear

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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:48 pm Post subject:

hi dave hope you are well. i'm sure you missed my many questions!

attached is a marriage, bottom right; from Speyer, Bayern 1837

I'm interested in the parents, Ferdinand Harter and Helena Hoffman. I see defunctorum after their names but I am not sure if one or both are deceased. What do you think?

Thanks.

joseph harder marriage 1837 maria apollonia lederle 8109952 img 289.jpg

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a4u2fear

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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:59 pm Post subject:

dave,

could you also translate the baptism on the right (joseph michael beritzi). takes place in Berg, Germersheim, Germany.

Thanks.

joseph michael beritzie baptism 1806 film 8109956 img 326.jpg

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dnowicki
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Hi Andrew,

I was able to cope with the lack of questions because harvesting and preserving the produce of the garden keeps me occupied and out of trouble at this time of the year. Seriously, I enjoy your questions and having the opportunity to answer them—especially by explaining the grammar and morphology to someone who studied the lingo years ago and still remembers much of what he learned.

To answer today’s question...both parents, Ferdinand Harder and Helen Hoffmann were deceased. The words conjugum defunctorum/of the deceased spouses put any doubt to rest. Just because I cannot resist explaining the Latin here is the grammar involved. Conjugum is the Genitive Plural of the noun conjunx, conjugis, m. or f. spouse. In contemporary Latin dictionaries the spelling is coniunx, coniugis. The spelling variation is because the letter “i” was used to symbolize both the vowel “i” and the consonant “j”. But that is a topic for another time. The noun conjunx in the singular means spouse and is masculine or feminine depending on whether the spouse in the husband or the wife. In the plural the noun is spouses and describes the married couple and the gender is masculine. Latin did not have an option for gender neutral nouns and when a man and a woman were listed together the masculine gender prevailed. Thus cojugum is masculine although it was being used to describe both a woman and a man. Defunctorum is the Genitive Plural Masculine of the Perfect Passive Participle of the deponent verb defungor, defungi, defunctus, to die. As you may remember from Latin class, deponent verbs “lay aside” their active forms and use the passive forms with an active meaning. As an adjective, defunctorum is modifying the noun conjugum and conjugum and Ferdinandi and Helenae (both Genitive Singular nouns) stand in apposition to each other. Thus the pertinent part of the sentence is translated “...Joseph Harder, the legitimate son of the deceased spouses Ferdinand Harder and Helen Hoffmann...”

I find these marriage records from Germany interesting in that their form and some of the content differs from Latin marriage records from Poland and from America. I am curious about the emphasis placed in the records from Germany regarding the parish priests relinquishing their pastoral care obligation to one or the other spouse and handing over that care to the pastor of another parish. It is certainly not of great import but it does make me wonder.

Keep up the good work. I’m sure that your former Latin teachers are proud of what you remember of the language.

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:23 pm Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

dave,

could you also translate the baptism on the right (joseph michael beritzi). takes place in Berg, Germersheim, Germany.

Thanks.

Hi Andrew,

I think that would be on the left, i.e. the hand with the watch.

This record should help you to direct your search for the deaths of Ferdinand and of Helen.
Here is the translation:

Left Margin: Britzi Joseph Michael
Body of Entry: Today, the 9th of the month of July of the year one thousand eight hundred six, by me the undersigned, was baptized Joseph Michael, the legitimate son of the legal spouses and townspeople Frances Louis/Ludwig Beritzi, (whose) profession was a merchant, and Maria Josephine Harder, born on the same day at the first hour after noon. The sponsor were Michael Brechtal, a townsman and imperial huntsman in Haerd(?) and Maria Helena Hoffmann. The surviving widow of Ferdinand Harder, a miller in Berg, who, after first having seen this extract, signed together with me.

Signature of Michael Brechtal, signature of Helena Harder
Signature of Louis/Ludwig Beritzi
Signature of Peter Loeser, the curate in Reiltzheim

Helena Harder sure signs with a strange looking capital letter H.

Dave

a4u2fear

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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:05 am Post subject:

Thanks for the lessons and translations dave. I always appreciate them. I do my best with these, sometimes, the information is too valuable for me to "believe i'm translating it right"; so i ask for your expertise. Also, sometimes the cursive or handwriting is so poor it can only be deciphered if you know what the word looks like. But, this side of the family is peeking it's head out again and the records are available on familysearch, so there most certainly will be more questions! Ha, enjoy your weekend. I hope my golf game is good tomorrow when I go out with my college buddies.

andrew

a4u2fear

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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:43 pm Post subject:

dave

i've stared at this one for a while now.....I can't determine how old Michael Berizzi is in this death. It is in Berg, Bayern, 1810. Bottom left. Maybe it's not listed at all. But I never found Michael's birth, but I found his death. So I was hoping it was listed in here.

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dnowicki
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:04 pm Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Hi Andrew,

The handwriting in this record is cramped and difficult to read but Michael’s age is recorded in the entry. It begins towards the end of line 6 and continues in the beginning of line 7. It begins with the word Aetatis and reads in Latin “duorum mensium et duarum (illegible word) hebdomadarum”. The English is “At the age of two months and two (illegible word) weeks.” I looked at the illegible word for a long time, thinking that perhaps it could be a fraction but the handwriting is so unclear that I can make no sense of the word. Since he died on November 21, 1810 and was buried the following day he should have been born around September 7 of the same year in the same parish. He was the legitimate son of Michael Berizzi and of Josephine Harder.

That is the best I can do with this one.

Good luck on the links tomorrow.

Dave

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