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PJurek527



Joined: 10 May 2020
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:34 pm      Post subject: Martin Ignace Jurek - Znin Poland
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I am looking for the birth certificate and marriage certificate for my great grandfather Martin (Martinus) Ignace Jurek born 25 October 1877 in Znin. He married Helen Veronica Fluder in 1903 (I believe on 24 January). Thank you for your help!
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marcelproust
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:51 pm      Post subject: Re: Martin Ignace Jurek - Znin Poland
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PJurek527 wrote:
I am looking for the birth certificate and marriage certificate for my great grandfather Martin (Martinus) Ignace Jurek born 25 October 1877 in Znin. He married Helen Veronica Fluder in 1903 (I believe on 24 January). Thank you for your help!


Here is the birth certificate for Martin



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PJurek527



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Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:47 am      Post subject:
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Thank you so much, this is awesome!
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marcelproust
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:53 am      Post subject:
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PJurek527 wrote:
Thank you so much, this is awesome!


This document is written in german. unfortunately i do not read german. What i am able to read is:

father's name: Ignacy
mother: Michalina nee Kaczmarek
parish: Żnin Miasto
romancatholics
birth date: October 25th 1877

Where did You find the marriage date?

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PJurek527



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Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:27 am      Post subject:
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I found this picture that someone took of someone's computer screen. It is part of the record and hard to read.


Martin Jurek Helen Fluder marriage - photo copy.jpg
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marcelproust
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:36 am      Post subject:
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PJurek527 wrote:
I found this picture that someone took of someone's computer screen. It is part of the record and hard to read.


someone took of someone's computer ??? Strange... so You do not know who owns it?

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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:51 pm      Post subject:
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PJurek527 wrote:
I found this picture that someone took of someone's computer screen. It is part of the record and hard to read.


Hi,

The photo of the computer screen is tough to read. Weddings took place in the parish of the bride and the portion of the record which names the place where the bride was residing is rather difficult to see (at least for me). I played around with the image a bit and am attaching two enhanced versions of the image. Perhaps Sophia, who has a way with reading letters which are not exactly clear, or someone else can make sense of the place name and either confirm or discount my reading of the letters. The entry reads “Martinus Jurek operarius* ex Żnin et Helena Fluder filia operarii ex Młodocin (my reading)”. Translation: Marcin/Martin Jurek, a laborer/hired hand* from Żnin, and Helena/Helen Fluder, the daughter of a laborer/hired hand* from Młodocin (my reading). The Skorowidz from c. 1930 states that Młodocin belonged to the parish of Góra. If my reading of the place name is correct, the picture of a computer screen you posted is of a record from the parish of Góra. The marriage was the first for the year and did take place on January 24. The bride was 17 and the groom was 26. It The bride was a maiden and the groom was a bachelor and both were Catholics. There is a second page with additional information which does not appear in the photo. If the above is accurate, the bride and groom belonged to different parishes—the bride to Góra and the groom to Żnin.

Note: operarius/laborer/hired hand was used to describe a peasant who worked for wages and owned no real property and usually lacked stable long term employment. Those of that group tended to move around quite a bit in search of employment and thus they might be found for a time in parish A and then in parish B and then in parish C and then back again in parish A. This labor situation was aggravated by the policy of Kulturkampf instituted in 1871 by Otto von Bismarck, the Chancellor of newly united Germany. The policy of Kulturkampf targeted German Catholics and also included an aggressive policy for the replacement of Polish peasants in the Province of Posen with German colonists together with an attempt to strip the Poles of their culture. Polish farm workers often had great difficulty in obtaining full-time work in German Poland. The first great wave of Polish peasant immigration to the USA from 1870 to 1890 which resulted from this situation often was said to be “za chlebem” (“for bread”). The Midwest (especially Illinois, Northern Indiana and Michigan) was a prime destination for many from that region. Those who wanted to farm preferred Northern Indiana and Michigan and Wisconsin while those who opted for an urban setting tended to choose large cities like Chicago, Detroit, or Milwaukee.

Records from the parishes of that area were filmed and appear in the catalog of Family Search and many are available online. Not all years (especially those from about the 1880 and the 20th Century) have been digitized and thus are not available online. The film notes state that the Family Search copies were filmed in the archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno. This provides another option other than the Polish National Archives for where you can request copies. Some friends of mine who dealt with the archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno had great success and said that the staff is very friendly and helpful. Here is their e-mail: [email protected] The archive has a user friendly online catalog http://www.archiwum.archidiecezja.pl/pl/katalog-on-line.html and here is the link to the catalog for the parish of Cerekwica http://www.archiwum.archidiecezja.pl/pl/katalog-on-line.html?userWord=cerekwica

The German civil registrations began in 1874. Prior to that year Catholic priests and Protestant (Lutheran) ministers submitted transcripts of the parish books which served as civil vital stats. After 1874 Catholic parishes continued to keep the parish registers in the same format as before. Both forms (German & Latin) records have their advantages for genealogical research. I would urge you to employ both in your research. The records from the Polish National Archives which Marcel Proust mentioned will be in German for the years after 1874. The records from the archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno are the ecclesiastical records in Latin.

All the above applies to your other Jurek related posts. (I will repeat this post without the attachments in your other thread.)

Wishing you successful research,

Dave



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Sophia



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Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:48 pm      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:
PJurek527 wrote:
I found this picture that someone took of someone's computer screen. It is part of the record and hard to read.


Hi,

The photo of the computer screen is tough to read. Weddings took place in the parish of the bride and the portion of the record which names the place where the bride was residing is rather difficult to see (at least for me). I played around with the image a bit and am attaching two enhanced versions of the image. Perhaps Sophia, who has a way with reading letters which are not exactly clear, or someone else can make sense of the place name and either confirm or discount my reading of the letters. The entry reads “Martinus Jurek operarius* ex Żnin et Helena Fluder filia operarii ex Młodocin (my reading)”. Translation: Marcin/Martin Jurek, a laborer/hired hand* from Żnin, and Helena/Helen Fluder, the daughter of a laborer/hired hand* from Młodocin (my reading). The Skorowidz from c. 1930 states that Młodocin belonged to the parish of Góra. If my reading of the place name is correct, the picture of a computer screen you posted is of a record from the parish of Góra. The marriage was the first for the year and did take place on January 24. The bride was 17 and the groom was 26. It The bride was a maiden and the groom was a bachelor and both were Catholics. There is a second page with additional information which does not appear in the photo. If the above is accurate, the bride and groom belonged to different parishes—the bride to Góra and the groom to Żnin.

Dave


Hi Dave,
Thanks for the enhanced images! My eyes see it as Kłodzin, rather than Młodocin.
It is a bit farther afield, but at 19 miles from Znin it would seem to be within reason.
What do you think?
Sophia
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:14 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
dnowicki wrote:
PJurek527 wrote:
I found this picture that someone took of someone's computer screen. It is part of the record and hard to read.


Hi,

The photo of the computer screen is tough to read. Weddings took place in the parish of the bride and the portion of the record which names the place where the bride was residing is rather difficult to see (at least for me). I played around with the image a bit and am attaching two enhanced versions of the image. Perhaps Sophia, who has a way with reading letters which are not exactly clear, or someone else can make sense of the place name and either confirm or discount my reading of the letters. The entry reads “Martinus Jurek operarius* ex Żnin et Helena Fluder filia operarii ex Młodocin (my reading)”. Translation: Marcin/Martin Jurek, a laborer/hired hand* from Żnin, and Helena/Helen Fluder, the daughter of a laborer/hired hand* from Młodocin (my reading). The Skorowidz from c. 1930 states that Młodocin belonged to the parish of Góra. If my reading of the place name is correct, the picture of a computer screen you posted is of a record from the parish of Góra. The marriage was the first for the year and did take place on January 24. The bride was 17 and the groom was 26. It The bride was a maiden and the groom was a bachelor and both were Catholics. There is a second page with additional information which does not appear in the photo. If the above is accurate, the bride and groom belonged to different parishes—the bride to Góra and the groom to Żnin.

Dave


Hi Dave,
Thanks for the enhanced images! My eyes see it as Kłodzin, rather than Młodocin.
It is a bit farther afield, but at 19 miles from Znin it would seem to be within reason.
What do you think?
Sophia


Hi Sophia,

I can see the place being as you describe but can’t offer any proof. I read the first letter as M based on the initial upward stroke which seemed to me to resemble the first letter of the given name of the groom. There is no example of an upper case K for a comparison. Handwriting is not my forte and the image is really poor but that is what happens when someone takes a picture of a computer screen and I don’t have a clue about how to fix that. I am certain of the letters in all the other words in the entry but I should be since I’ve been playing with Latin for the past sixty years at the beginning of this month. As you say, 19 miles is not a deal breaker. What does give me a degree of pause is that, according to Katarzyna’s good work, the marriages of Helena’s siblings in 1895, 1898, 1900, & 1905 are all recorded in Żnin both the civil registry office and the parish. Of course, the civil registry office and the parish are not always in the same place. In 1884 my maternal grandmother was born in Retkowo and baptized in the parish of Brzyskorzystew (both just north of Żnin) but the civil registry office for Retkowo was in Królikowo, not in Brzyskorzystew. I don’t know the location of the civil registry office for Młodocin or for Kłodzin but it appears that the office for those places was not in Żnin. If it were the marriage of my direct ancestors I would look for the marriage in both parishes and see what shakes out. The bottom line is the short answer to your question is, as the ancient Romans would have said, “Nescio” (I don’t know.)

Time to do some light reading and then some serious snoozing.

Dave
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Sophia



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Post Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:19 am      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:

Hi Sophia,

I can see the place being as you describe but can’t offer any proof. I read the first letter as M based on the initial upward stroke which seemed to me to resemble the first letter of the given name of the groom. There is no example of an upper case K for a comparison. Handwriting is not my forte and the image is really poor but that is what happens when someone takes a picture of a computer screen and I don’t have a clue about how to fix that. I am certain of the letters in all the other words in the entry but I should be since I’ve been playing with Latin for the past sixty years at the beginning of this month. As you say, 19 miles is not a deal breaker. What does give me a degree of pause is that, according to Katarzyna’s good work, the marriages of Helena’s siblings in 1895, 1898, 1900, & 1905 are all recorded in Żnin both the civil registry office and the parish. Of course, the civil registry office and the parish are not always in the same place. In 1884 my maternal grandmother was born in Retkowo and baptized in the parish of Brzyskorzystew (both just north of Żnin) but the civil registry office for Retkowo was in Królikowo, not in Brzyskorzystew. I don’t know the location of the civil registry office for Młodocin or for Kłodzin but it appears that the office for those places was not in Żnin. If it were the marriage of my direct ancestors I would look for the marriage in both parishes and see what shakes out. The bottom line is the short answer to your question is, as the ancient Romans would have said, “Nescio” (I don’t know.)

Time to do some light reading and then some serious snoozing.

Dave


Hi Dave,
You make a very good point regarding the marriages of Helena's siblings, which occur in years that bracket her marriage, all being recorded in Znin. I think your reading of Młodocin is probably the correct reading, here.
If I happen to meet up with one of your ancient Romans, and they say to me, "Nescio," I am going to have to answer, "Neither do I."

Hi PJurek527,
I hope that you will take the record which you have in German, and ask for a translation here on the forum, in the thread which is devoted to the translation of German records. KMichael8 does very nice work with that difficult German handwriting.
Best of luck!
Sophia
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