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marierpk



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Post Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:53 pm      Post subject: WhatDoesThisMean-"mother whose name is not known to any
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I would appreciate opinions on the following. My second great grandparents, Petronel Slugewicz and Karolis Insel, were married in Nowe Troki Catholic parish in 1837. Karolis was from Prussia and of the Evangelical Lutheran faith. His father was Adam Insel. His mother is listed as "mother whose name is not known to anybody." What does that mean, in the context of that time? The relevant area of the original document is attached, and the area in question is highlighted in yellow. The document was translated a few years ago by another organization, but I believe the translation is basically correct.

Many thanks,
Marie



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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:07 pm      Post subject:
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Hello Marie,

Without knowing the content of the entire translation, it is difficult to know for sure. However, when I have seen such notations in marriage records in the past, it usually means that no one present at the marriage knew or remembered the name of his mother. This is especially possible if his father was deceased when the wedding took place and if the groom was a young child when his birth mother died.

If you post the entire document and the entire translation we may have a better chance to interpret that sentence within context.

Best,
Cynthia
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marierpk



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Post Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:46 pm      Post subject: Complete Document, What Does This Mean?
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Here is the original document. Thanks! Marie


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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:05 pm      Post subject:
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Marie, can you also please post the full translation you have?

Thanks,
Cynthia
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marierpk



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Post Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:25 pm      Post subject: What Does This Mean, Part 3
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The translation was only partial. Here is what she provided: "On 22nd February 1837, the priest Vincentas Dziekunskas of Naujieji Trakai Roman Catholic Church united in marriage Karolis Inselis, 28 years old, free peasant of the Evangelical Lutheran faith, who presented the certificate from his pastor that he has never been married, the son of free peasants Adomas and the mother whose name is not known to anybody, and Petronele Slugeviciute, 20 years from Burbiskes village, the daughter of Jurgis and Marcijona Slugevicius. Witnesses: Vincentas Dziusa, Juozapas Mikulskis, Jokubas Mikalauskas."
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:43 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Marie,

Thanks for posting. I suggest you submit the marriage record to the Polish translation forum on this website and request a full translation. There may be some details missing in the summary translation you have.

After full translation, even if you don't find additional details in the record, it is most likely (but not certain) that the sentence simply means that no one present at the marriage ceremony knew the name of his birth mother. That points to the possibility that his birth mother died when he was a young child which accounts for the groom not knowing/remembering his mother's name. That was not uncommon.

Do you know Karol's place of birth in Prussia?

Best,
Cynthia
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marierpk



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Post Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:03 pm      Post subject:
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Sadly, I do not know in which part of Prussia that Karol lived. It's one of the things I hope to discover. I was wondering if, maybe, Karol was an orphan and was only later adopted by Adam. Best, Marie
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:02 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Marie,

An adoption would be rare. The scenario I explained to you is the most likely. The only way to be certain is to locate his parish of birth and obtain his birth record.

Do you have Karol’s death record? Sometimes the place of birth and parents are included.

Note the German spelling of the surname is likely Einsel.

Best,
Cynthia
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:16 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Marie and Cynthia,
I took a look at Geneteka, and I see that there are three brides with the surname Insel, as well as brides with the surname of Dombrowska whose mother’s maiden name was Insel, showing up in the marriage records in the Lutheran church in Bialystok:
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=S&w=10pl&rid=S&search_lastname=insel&search_name=&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=
Unfortunately, this particular church seems to have only 35 years’ worth of marriage records online, and no birth records or death records.
Cynthia’s idea to consider alternative spellings is a good one. To her suggestion, I would add the spellings Hensel and Haensel.
For what it’s worth, I find it interesting that the marriage record for Karol does not give his town of birth, leaving me to wonder whether he is, in fact, not from a different town, but that he is from the Lutheran church in Nowe Troki.
Best of luck in your search,
Sophia
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mcdonald0517
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Post Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:25 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia and Marie,

Great suggestions Sophia. Marie, what makes you think Karol was from Prussia? Unless I am missing something, the translation you provided said nothing about him coming from Prussia.

Do you have other evidence he was from Prussia?

Best,
Cynthia
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marierpk



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Post Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:24 pm      Post subject:
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The Lithuanian researcher also cites the Revision List of 1846, which states that "in Burbiskes village of Brazuole State Manor in Naujieji Trakai parish were residing: Emigrant from Prussia, son of Adomas, Karolis Inselis, his wife Petronele, daughter Ona..." So I believe that the Prussia comment is valid. Bear in mind that, at the time, "Prussia" was likely northeastern, eastern or maybe central Poland. Yes, the spelling of the surname does seem to change document to document.

I appreciate all the information that has been provided! I will keep investigating, and please let me know if anything else looks promising. Best, Marie
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:56 pm      Post subject:
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marierpk wrote:
The Lithuanian researcher also cites the Revision List of 1846, which states that "in Burbiskes village of Brazuole State Manor in Naujieji Trakai parish were residing: Emigrant from Prussia, son of Adomas, Karolis Inselis, his wife Petronele, daughter Ona..." So I believe that the Prussia comment is valid. Bear in mind that, at the time, "Prussia" was likely northeastern, eastern or maybe central Poland. Yes, the spelling of the surname does seem to change document to document.

I appreciate all the information that has been provided! I will keep investigating, and please let me know if anything else looks promising. Best, Marie


Hi Marie,

It seems to me that it is quite likely that Karolis was born in Prussia proper. The time of his birth (c. 1809) was a period of upheaval in Europe largely due to the Napoleonic Wars. You are certainly correct that during the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth the region where he was born was part of the Commonwealth. At the time of the Commonwealth’s height in terms of territory Ducal Prussia was a fief of the Commonwealth (cf. attached map). The Commonwealth was commonly known as “Poland” but its official title was “The Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania”. This Commonwealth of the Two Nations (Rzeczpostpolita Obojga Narodów) consisted of two parts, the Crown Lands of the Kingdom of Poland, and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The area where the 1837 marriage took place fell within the lands of the Duchy. After the Third Partition in 1795 most of the northern territory of the Commonwealth was seized by Prussia and the northern territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was taken by Russia and directly incorporated into the Russian Empire (cf. 1806 map of Prussia). The easternmost territory which Prussia had taken during the Partitions was known and New East Prussia. The area which once had been Ducal Prussia was known as East Prussia. After Napoleon’s victories in the War of the Fourth Coalition and the treaty of Tilsit in 1807 Prussia relinquished control of most of the territory it had gained during the Partitions. Russia gave up its westernmost lands seized during the Partitions. However, most of the territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania which fallen to Russia (including Naujieji Trakai) remained part of the Russian Empire. The Duchy of Warsaw was formed mostly of lands which had once been the Crown Lands of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. That was how things remained until after the defeat of Napoleon. The Congress of Vienna gave most of what had been the Duchy of Warsaw to Russia in what became known as the Congress Kingdom of Poland, a Russian puppet state. Most of the eastern lands which Prussia controlled after the Third Partition became part of the Congress Kingdom (later known simply as the Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie). So what does all this have to do with the birthplace of Karolis? He probably had not been born in the territory of the Congress Kingdom. It is much more likely that he had been born in what had been known as East Prussia or in what had been known as New East Prussia. Since both those regions were close to where the 1837 wedding took place, it seems to me that both have a pretty much equal chance of being the place of his birth, although East Prussia would hold a slight edge..

Here is a link to a fairly detailed map of what had been the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from 1799. Perhaps you may find it useful. https://maps.geshergalicia.org/galicia/third-partition-poland-1799/

Wishing you continued success,

Dave

PS: Cynthia, the marriage document in Polish makes no mention of the place of birth of Karolis.



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marierpk



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Post Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:39 pm      Post subject:
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Dave - Awesome! Thanks so much for the information, explanation and maps of the region for the time of Karolis' birth. I'll look over the maps and perhaps gain some insight into which towns I can start checking for birth records (circa 1809). Any guess why a 28-year-old man would pick up and leave Prussia to emigrate to a town in Lithuania?

Cynthia and Sophia - Thank you once again for your opinions and insights. All the people in my family who might have been able to answer some of these questions have passed. My best chance to learn is from people like you.

You folks are the best!
Marie
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:10 am      Post subject:
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Hi Marie,

Taking Prussia into consideration, the Insel women who I found getting married in Bialystok may not be a hint into the family’s place of origin. My current guess is that they moved to Bialystok in the same way that your Karol moved to the Wilno area. So, I went back to Geneteka and found two more Insel individuals, here, in the Pomorze (Pommern) area:
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=pol&bdm=S&w=11pm&rid=S&search_lastname=Insel&search_name=&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=&rpp1=&ordertable=
Again, you see that they are only marriage records. Since one of them was in Gdansk (Danzig), I tried to see what else I could find there. I came across records in the online Polish Archives, which are not church records but rather “Karty Meldunkowe”. If you are not familiar with these, they were a kind of register of who lived in a particular place. Each person’s record was amended over time, to show where they lived (including moving from one address to another), and when the left (if they did). Unfortunately, I am not finding the Karty Meldunkowe for an early enough timeframe to find your Karol there, if indeed he ever was there. Still, I thought you might want to see what these look like. Beware of the old style German handwriting. Very few people can actually read it. We are lucky on this forum to have Michael who does German translations, and he is able to read these. Anyway, here is a link to the Gdansk Karty Meldunkowe for people whose names fall within the range of Ibald – Inurtowsky. I am linking you to a specific page, which is Image # 275. The following cards, up through Image # 290, are all Insel individuals. If you put your mouse onto the image, midway along the right margin, an arrow will appear that will let you page forward to the next image. If you want to see the image more fully, you can click on the icon in the lower right, not the one with the Z but the one that represents an expanding screen.

https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/10/14/0/5/7379/str/1/19/15/_X5AmsY-7EipPvH3Q83O8Q/#tabSkany

This particular card will show you a few things. For example, you will find “Eltern heissen” which would give the names of the person’s parents (on this image, it says “unbekannt” which means unknown). On most of the cards, the parents are left blank. You will also find a column for “Geburts Ort Kreis” (birth place, county) which for this individual says Berlin. I paged through the people, and I see given names such as Adolf, Anna, Hermann, Maria and Paul. Other names I could not decipher (oddly, on this first card, the given name seems to be missing altogether).

First, I had hoped to find a card for Adam. I don’t think one is there. Then, I hoped that all of these Insels would have a common birthplace, which could give you a lead for where to search next. It doesn’t seem like it. I am left thinking that you may need to get a German researcher, who can access more records than what I can find, for Prussia. I’m posting all of this here, to give you an idea of other types of records that might be out there. Finally, I want to add that I will back away from my earlier suggestion to look for Hensel and Haensel as alternative spellings. That was my thought when the name Insel wasn’t showing up a lot.

Best of luck in your search,
Sophia
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