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rsowa
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Location: Dundee, Michigan, USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject:

Attached is a marriage record in Lubcz parish (LDS microfilms) (line 13) for Mathew Młotkowski. The Poznan Project has it indexed and translated as Matthaeus Młotkowski (26) marrying Rosalia Benka (29). It confused me because her son (Michael Behnke, born 1846) married Josephine Żakowska in 1874, and his mother was listed as Rosalie Behnke .zam Młotkowski. I understand that .zam is short for "zamężna", which indicates his mother might have remarried after Michael was born.

I'd appreciate someone translating this record for me, and confirm (or correct) my thinking that Rosalie's maiden name may not have been Behnke, but was something else.

Thanks in advance,
Richard

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Kurt1322

Joined: 20 Sep 2017
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Location: Imperial, MO
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:39 pm Post subject: Help With Birth Record

I would appreciate help with the translation of this birth record of Thecla Marianna Tobiasz (I think). This is from the Parish of Warez.

Thank you,

Kurt

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dnowicki
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:27 am Post subject:

rsowa wrote:

Hi Richard,

Rozalia’s maiden name was Behnke/Benke and her married name was Młotkowski—the surname of the groom Mateusz Młotkowski in the record you posted. When her son Michael Behnke was born his mother was unmarried and hence he was given his mother’s maiden name as his surname. It seems that Mateusz was not Michael’s father—or at least he never officially and publically acknowledged that he was the father. In 1874, when Michael/Michał married, his mother had been married only once and was still married to Mateusz Młotkowski. The translation which follows should help to clarify that Rozalia was unmarried prior to 1848 when she and Mateusz did marry.

If you have questions, please feel free to ask.

Dave

Col. 1: Numerus = Number (for the year): 13
Col. 2: Dies et Mensis Copulationis = The Day and Month of the Marriage: 26 November 1848
Col. 3: Nomen Sacerdotis Benedicentis Matrimonium = The Name of the Priest blessing the Marriage: The same
Col. 4: Nomen et Cognomen Copulatorum, demominato domicilii, status artis vel conditionis vitae, et utrum in ecclesia an in privato copulati sint = The First Name and Surname of those marrying, (their) place of residence, status of art or condition of life, and whether they were married in a church or in private: Mateusz Młodkowski, a bachelor, a servant, with Rozalia Benke, a deflowered maiden*, both from Gałęzewo. Consecrated in the church.
Col. 5: Num copulati vel una pars eorum antea vinculo matrimonii obstricti aut obstricta fuit, num sub potestate patrentum (corrected from parentem) vel tutorum existunt. = Whether one of them already had been bound by the state of matrimony or if not, whether they remained to this time under the tutelage of (their) parents or guardians: Neither party was bound by (a previous) marriage.
Col. 6: Aetas = Age
Col. 6a: Sponsi = Of the Groom: 26
Col. 6b: Sponsae = Of the Bride: 29
Col. 7: Religio = Religion
Col. 7a: Sponsi = Of the Groom: Catholic
Col. 7b: Sponsae = Of the Bride:Catholic
Col. 8: Nomen et Cognomen Parentum = Given & Surname of the Parents
Col. 8a: Sponsi = Of the Groom: Blank
Col. 8b: Sponsae = Of the Bride: Blank
Col. 9: Num cum Consensu Parentum vel Tutorum vel Judicii Tutelaris Matrimonium Contractum Sit. = Whether the marriage was contracted with the Consent of the Parents or of the Guardians or of the Court of Guardianship: Both of their own right**
Col. 10: Dies Promulgationum = dates of the Proclamation (of the Banns): 8, 15, 22 November
Col. 11: Num cum Dispensatione Aliqua Matrimonium Contraxerunt et de Quo Dato = Whether they contracted marriage with any dispensation and from what it was granted: No
Col. 12: Nomen, Cognomen, ars et conditio vitae adstantium testium = The First Names and Surnames, profession and state of life of the present witnesses: Franciszek Siwkowski, Stanisław Welzant
Col. 13: Adnotatio = Notation: Blank

Notes: *virgo deflorata/deflowered maiden: standard way to describe an unmarried woman who had given birth prior to a latter wedding.
**ambo sui juris/both of their own right: As liberated adults they did not need either parental of judicial permission/consent to marry. It was their call whether to marry or not.

dnowicki
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Help With Birth Record

Kurt1322 wrote:

I would appreciate help with the translation of this birth record of Thecla Marianna Tobiasz (I think). This is from the Parish of Warez.

Thank you,

Kurt

Hi Kurt,

The child’s surname is Werle. Her father was a member of the szlachta (nobility) and the entry records his name as Pan (the honorific for a member of the szlachta) Tobias (English)/Tobiasz (Polish) Werle.

Since the surname is not Tobiasz is the entry still of interest to you?

Dave

your_parades

Joined: 07 Mar 2021
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Location: Canada/Germany
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:16 am Post subject:

I've started to break down a brick wall around my great-grandfather, Leo(n) Twarecki - very excited!

Could someone be so kind as to help translate the first record, for Leo Twarecki and Hedwig Janikowska, on page 540 here? http://agadd2.home.net.pl/metrykalia/301/sygn.%201971/pages/1_301_0_0_1971_0303.htm

I can read some of the names, but not much else. Any information you can extract would be incredibly helpful, as the only existing info we have about Leon is his date of death.

Many thanks,
Tara

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:06 am Post subject:

your_parades wrote:

Hi Tara,

I translated the given names into their Polish version. The rest of the entries should be self evident in translation. I hope this helps you.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave

Title: Liber copulatorum = Marriage Register pag(ina) = page: 540

C.1: 1912 (from following page)
C1a: Numerus positionis = number in order: Lacking
C1b: Dies et Mensis = Day & Month: October 5
C1c: Numerus Domus = House Number: (Groom): 16 Jabłonawski; (Bride): 6 Sobieszyn
C2: Sponsus = The Groom
C2a: Nomen, cognomen, conditio, ejus parentes locus nativit. et habitatio= Name, surname, status/condition, his parents, place of birth and residence: Leon Tomasz (two names) Twarecki, secretary of the delegation of (illegible) , born in Przemyśl, the son of Józef and of Maria née Królikowska
C2b: Religio = Religion: marked Roman Catholic
C2c: Aetas = Age: (Date of birth given): 7 March, 1878 (calculated age based on dates in record): 36 years, 6 months, 29 days
C2d: Coelebs = Bachelor: checked
C2e: Viduus = Widower: blank
C3: Sponsa = The Bride
C3a: Nomen = Name, cognomen, ejus parentes locus nativitatis et habitationis= Name, surname, her parents, place of birth and residence: Jadwiga Julia (two names) Janikowska, born in Lwów, the daughter of Władysław and of Maria née Kytlas
C3b: Religio = Religion: Roman Catholic
C3c: Aetas = Age: (Date of birth given): 10 February, 1889 (calculated age based on dates in record): 23 years, 0 months, 29 days
C3d: Coelebs = Maiden: Checked
C3e: Vidua = Widow: blank
C4 Testes Nomen, cognomen, conditio et locus habitationis = Witnesses Name, surname, Status/Condition and place of residence: Bolesław Zienkowicz, Kazimierz Steruberg—Poridzki(?)

Notation at bottom (deals with legalities): With delegation of the pastor of the bride in Lwów dated 2 October, 1912 Czesław Krulikowski, pastor of Dzikowies blessed this marriage with the pastor of this place assisting.

TedMack

Joined: 12 Jun 2020
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:30 am Post subject: Latin Records Translation

G'day Dave

Hope you can help with a translation of the attached record (record 25) (Kawal parish), I think it is the Baptism record of my GGG Grandfather, although to confirm I need to find his first marriage record as his second marriage record did not help. I am unable to find his death record, and it could be that family legend on my Mother's side maybe correct. Legend has it that one of my GGG Grandfathers enrolled with Napoleon army (Polish Legion possibly) as a flag bearer when they attempted to invade Russia in 1812 but they dropped dead on their retreat after the disastrous attempt to invade Russia. Unfortunately details are sketchy at best and hard to prove. Although there is a clue that it maybe him as his daughter married in 1814 and she was given permission in the church to marry by her Uncle (her late mothers brother) as he was the guardian as both parents were recently deceased. I do have one other GGG Grandfather that I am still searching for a death record. The search continues with not much luck at present.

I've attached the full page plus a crop of the record to hopefully make life easier.

Cheers

Ted

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dnowicki
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Latin Records Translation

TedMack wrote:

Hi Ted,

As long as the time frame for the birth of the daughter who married in 1814 works he could very well your ancestor. I know that Geneteka indexed his father as Maciej but the name in the record is clearly Mateusz. The record reads Mathaei. Which is the Genitive Singular of Mathaeus. The Latin for Maciej is Mathias and the Genitive Singular is Mathiae, which is not what appears in the record.

The family legend is plausible but unproven. If Antoni did die on the retreat from Moscow during the winter of 1812-13 he could be buried anywhere between Moscow and Włocławek and perhaps the location will never be known. It is quite possible that a companion delivered the news of his death to his family but, unfortunately, it does not seem possible to determine the place of his death and burial from official records. Many of those who died during the retreat would be classified as “unknown soldiers” and without some idea of where he died it is nigh unto inpossible to search for his death record. The one branch of my ancestors who were not from what today is Kujawsko-Pomorskie was from the parish of Głuchowo in Wielkopolskie. I came across an entry in the parish death register in February of 1813 where a soldier from the Moscow Expidition was found dead on the road just outside the village. Based on his clothing the priest described him as a Bavarian soldier who had died on the retreat from Moscow. He, of course, would fit the category of the burial of an unknown soldier. Although he had no connection to my family I couldn’t help thinking how sad it must have been for his family not to know what had become of him since it seems that he died alone and still far from home.

Antoni’s first marriage may very well not have taken place in the parish of Kowal since weddings took place in the parish of the bride and his wife may have lived in a different parish when the wedding took place. Looking for the marriage record may involve searching records of nearby parishes during the likely time period—a daunting but not impossible task. From my own research I know that not all the marriage records for the late 18th Century from the surrounding parishes have been indexed. What fun would research be if everything were easy?

Anyway, here follows the translation.

Wishing you a fruitful search,

Dave

From Telążna. On the 16th day (of June) I, the same who (is) above baptized an infant by the name of Antoni (born) of the legitimate marriage of the industrious* Mateusz and Jadwiga Szmayda**. Those lifting (him) up*** were the upright**** Jakub Subinowski from Royal Wistka and Helena from Telążna.

Notes: *laboriosus/industrious: adjective used to describe an individual as a peasant.
**Szmayda: current spelling is Szmajda.
***levantibus/those lifting (him) up: circumlocution for sponsors.
****honestus/upright: an adjective usually used to describe a farmer from a village or a small town.

TedMack

Joined: 12 Jun 2020
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: Latin Records Translation

dnowicki wrote:

TedMack wrote:

Thanks for the prompt reply and translation. Yes I didn't think that it would be easy to find a death record of a soldier if the location is unknown. I too have seen records of unknown persons in Death registers, particularly in the Winter months, found in the surrounds of the parish. Unfortunately as my Mother died over 20 years ago and all my Uncles and Aunties have also long passed the legend will remain a legend.

By the way Antoni and his first wife had at least 13 children in the former village of Blizna in the Koło parish, the first I believe in 1784, and my GGG Grandmother was from the neighbouring former village of Nagorna Wieś, Koło. So it's a search through the Family Search Centre when I have time, and it takes time to locate the correct scans before you search.

Once again thanks,

Cheers

Ted

starshadow
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:10 am Post subject:

Maybe this has been asked before. But how often were grandparents picked as godparents in 19th/ 18th century Poland? Were any close family members prohibited from being godparents?

dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:12 am Post subject:

starshadow wrote:

Maybe this has been asked before. But how often were grandparents picked as godparents in 19th/ 18th century Poland? Were any close family members prohibited from being godparents?

Hi Starshadow,

Actually, as far as I recall, the two questions had not been posed previously on the forum. The second question is easier to answer using hard data and that is where I will begin.

The list of relatives who were not eligible to serve as sponsors/godparents is very short and is limited to three. The data is drawn from the 1917 Codex Iuris Canonici (Code of Canon Law) which was binding on the entire Latin/Roman Rite Catholic Church. Obviously 1917 is later than the time period about which you asked but a bit of historical background will show why it is a good source of data to answer your question. Despite the long history of the Roman Catholic Church no compilation of church law in one handy source existed prior to 1917. Prior to that time it was necessary to search through the canons, decretals, curial directives, etc. to determine what laws applied in a given situation. The 1917 Code distilled those sources and created a handy one location source for church law and practice and thus the 1917 Code incorporated 18th and 19th Century law and practice and provides a verifiable source from which the earlier laws and practices can be determined.

Canon 765 #3 names three persons who cannot serve as baptismal sponsors/godparents. The canon reads: Ut quis sit patrinus, oportet…“No. 3: Nec sit pater vel mater vel coniux baptizandi” (In order that one may be a sponsor it is proper...that they be neither the father nor the mother nor the spouse of the one being baptized.) Obviously, the spouse only applies to adults who are being baptized. Other than the parents of a child all other relatives are eligible to be sponsors/godparents as long as they fulfill the basic requirements. Canon 766 spells out those basic requirements. Those pertinent to your question are that the sponsor be at least 14 years of age and be a practicing Catholic who knew at least the rudiments of Catholic teaching and practice and who understood and accepted the obligations of being a sponsor. Since the custom was that an individual received Communion for the first time around the age of 12-14 the person was not considered a fully practicing Catholic until age 14.

The first question is more difficult to answer since, as far as I know, the stats needed to answer the question have not been compiled and analyzed. Although I’ve seen and translated many baptismal records I’ve only paid attention to familial relationships between the child and sponsors for my own ancestors and relatives. Based on my experiences it would appear that sometimes a grandparent was asked to be a sponsor but the frequency varied due to various factors. The most important factor was related to mortality. Grandparents often were no longer alive when their grandchildren were born and thus were eliminated from the pool of possible godparents. Often the parents selected a sibling, aunt, uncle, cousin, etc. for the role of godparent. Younger relatives had greater chance of mentoring a child for a longer period of time. It seems to me that the character and the disposition of a relative also played an important role in the choice. An example would be one of my maternal great, great grandfathers who was sponsor for at least one child of each of his children. He was a shepherd and thus was not selected because of his socioeconomic status but all through his life he frequently was a baptismal sponsor and a marriage witness for both relatives and neighbors. It seems to me that it must have been his personality and character which caused him to be selected for those roles.

The bottom line is for lack of hard data I’m not able to offer a solid answer to the question and can only offer my opinion based on what I’ve found from records of my ancestors and relatives.

I hope that this provides at least partial answers to your questions and provides some background for further analysis.

Dave

starshadow
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:38 am Post subject:

Thanks Dave! This is great. It helps me a lot.

your_parades

Joined: 07 Mar 2021
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:29 pm Post subject: Janikowski/Kitlas?

Hi again,

I believe I have found the record for the marriage of my great-great-grandparents, Wladyslaw Janikowski and Maria Kitlaus/Kitlas (or a variant, we don't have clear information). Could you translate the marked section? Beyond their names and children, we have no additional information on them, and would be keen to know more about her family and origins in particular.

Many thanks!
Tara

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dnowicki
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Janikowski/Kitlas?

your_parades wrote:

Hi Tara,

The format in which the record is posted does not allow me to zoom in on the record in order to see all the words and letters. Please post it in another format, e.g. jpg. Also, it would be very helpful if you were to provide whatever geographical info you have—the name of the parish as a minimum.

Thanks.

Dave

your_parades

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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Janikowski/Kitlas?

dnowicki wrote:

your_parades wrote:

Hi Dave,

Sorry about that! I've saved and attached as a jpg, and the record is from the Record books of the Roman Catholic parish from the Archdiocese of Lviv - the marriage would have taken place in the basilica.

Thanks so much!
Tara

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