asteeber
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Replies: 26
Location: New Jersey, USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:19 am
Post subject: Script help
Hello
I have attached the Civil Marriage Record for my great-great-grandparents which was filed in Gonsawa. The Fraktur font on the form was somewhat easy to translate. Unfortunately, I am unable to read the handwriting at all. I have tried comparing against Kurrentscript and Sutterlin letter charts, but was hoping someone else more versed in the language could help. I am most interested in the details surrounding the names of the bride and groom, as well as their parents. Due to the amount of words on each line, I am assuming they also had occupational information before their names?
I appreciate all your help!
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| Name of groom is Valenti Malinowski. Name of bride is Anastazia Szymczak. I would love to know what else is included on the lines for the names of the betrothed as well as their parents, besides their names. |
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_________________
"A family tree can wither
if nobody tends its roots."
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:04 am
Post subject: Re: Thanks!
| mmdruit wrote: | Thank you so much for the translations. We have several more if you are inclined to do some more translation.
Michiel |
You're welcome. Post them and I will have a look.
Michael
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: Script help
| asteeber wrote: | Hello
I have attached the Civil Marriage Record for my great-great-grandparents which was filed in Gonsawa. The Fraktur font on the form was somewhat easy to translate. Unfortunately, I am unable to read the handwriting at all. I have tried comparing against Kurrentscript and Sutterlin letter charts, but was hoping someone else more versed in the language could help. I am most interested in the details surrounding the names of the bride and groom, as well as their parents. Due to the amount of words on each line, I am assuming they also had occupational information before their names?
I appreciate all your help! |
Hello,
You are right, the handwriting is special. The short version is: The groom was a “Wirth”, short for “Landwirt” or farmer, his father was a “Gärtner” or gardener. The bride was a “Wirthstochter” or the daughter of a farmer, her father was a farmer. Please find here the longer version, the translation of your marriage record.
Best regards,
Michael
No. 6
Gonsawa, on February 5, 1877.
Before the undersigned registrar appeared today for the purpose of marriage:
1. The farmer [Wirth] Valentin Malinowski, of know identity, of Catholic religion, born on February 8, 1847 in Labischin, residing in Podgorzyn, son of the gardener [Gärtner] Franz Malinowski and his wife Anna, born Duliezka, residing in Podgorzyn
2. The farmer’s daughter [Wirthstochter] Anastazia Seymczak, unmarried, of known identity, of Catholic religion, born on February 13, 1854 in Biskupin, residing in Biskupin, daughter of the farmer [Wirth] Joseph Seymczak and his wife Agnes, born Meniewska, both residing in Biskupin
and as witnesses:
3. The gendarme [Gendarm] Carl Pankalla, of known identity, 47 years old, residing in Gonsawa
4. The constable [Polizeidiener] Peter Rymastear [unsure about this name], of known identity, 42 years old, residing in Gonsawa
The registrar put to each of the betrothed in turn the question: whether they were willing to enter into marriage with one another. The betrothed answered this question in the affirmative, whereupon the registrar pronounced that by virtue of the Civil Code they were henceforth legally joined in marriage.
Read aloud, approved, and signed
[Signatures]
The registrar.
[Signature]
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asteeber
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Replies: 26
Location: New Jersey, USABack to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Script help
| Kmichael8 wrote: |
Hello,
You are right, the handwriting is special. The short version is: The groom was a “Wirth”, short for “Landwirt” or farmer, his father was a “Gärtner” or gardener. The bride was a “Wirthstochter” or the daughter of a farmer, her father was a farmer. Please find here the longer version, the translation of your marriage record.
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Thank you so much! I sincerely appreciate all your help!
_________________
"A family tree can wither
if nobody tends its roots."
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:43 pm
Post subject: German Postcards
Here are the additional postcards we have found. This entire side of the family is very mysterious, the connection person (my husband's grandmother) destroyed almost all of the correspondence she received from her family. The only items she kept are the ones I have loaded for translation. It is a very interesting puzzle to solve. Thanks again for assisting us.
Michiel
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No. 05.pdf |
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No. 03.pdf |
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:45 pm
Post subject: German Postcards
5 more
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:48 pm
Post subject: German Postcards
5 more. And all we have to try and piece the puzzle together.
Thanks again,
Michiel
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No. 17.pdf |
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: German Postcards
| mmdruit wrote: | Here are the additional postcards we have found. This entire side of the family is very mysterious, the connection person (my husband's grandmother) destroyed almost all of the correspondence she received from her family. The only items she kept are the ones I have loaded for translation. It is a very interesting puzzle to solve. Thanks again for assisting us.
Michiel |
Michiel,
Please find attached a transcription / translation of your postcards. The spelling and the punctuation used on postcards seemed to follow its own rules. I kept most of it but added some full stops and commas for clarity.
Best regards,
Michael
No. 01
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] sendet dir Sohndel deine Großmutter. Auf Wiedersehen / Happy birthday, dear Sohndel from your granny. See you again. [“Sohndel” – sometimes written “Sondel” – is a word used in Silesia for a son and obviously also for a grandson.]
No. 02
[Front side] Die besten Wünsche zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] Wünscht Dir liebe Tochter Deine Mutter / to you, dear daughter from your mother
No. 03
[Front side] Die besten Wünsche zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] Lossen, den 27.5.31 / Lossen, on May 27, 1931
Liebe Schwägerin! / Dear sister-in-law!
Von Herzen gratulieren wir dir zu deinem Geburtstag / Heartfelt congratulations to your birthday
sendet Johann. Anna / from Johann and Anna. [This refers to the wishes on the front side.]
The adress is: Frau Emmy De Vito, New York
No. 04
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] sendet die [I would assume she meant „dir“] liebes Sohndel Deine Omama. Aufswiedersehen / dear son from your granny. See you again. [“Omama” is a term of endearment for “Oma” or grandmother.]
No. 05
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage von Deiner Omama / Happy birthday from your granny. [Here we have again “Omama” as a term of endearment.]
No. 06
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] sendet dir liebes Sohndel u[nd] wünscht dir au[c]h viel Glück. Deine Großmutter / to you, dear Sohndel and good luck from your grandmother
No. 07
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] Lossen, den 27.5.31. Lieber Schwager/ die herzlichsten Glück- und Segenswünsche sendet Familie Johann Stock / Lossen, on May 27, 1931. Dear brother-in-law! Heartfelt congratulations and wishes for blessings sends family Johann Stock.
The address is: Vincent De Vito Neu Jork
No. 08
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] sendet Dir Lieber Michael Deine Großmutter u[nd] der Onkel Johann u[nd] Tante Anna, Herbert, Kurt, Alfred u[nd] Ilse. Wir gratulieren dir alle zu[m] Geburtstage. Lass dir das Christkind viel einbeschären. / to you, dear Michael from your grandmother, uncle Johann and aunt Anna, with Herbert, Kurt, Alfred and Ilse. We congratulate to your birthday. May Father Christmas bring lots of gifts.
The address is: Vincent De Vito, Neu Jork
No. 09
[Front side] Zum Geburtstage herzliche Wünsche / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] Lieber Schwiegersohn, wünsche Dir viel Glück, schicke Dir auch eine Glückskarte dass du mächtes me[h]r Glück haben u[nd] Gesundheit. Aufwiedersehen / Dear son-in-law wish you good luck send you a “Glückskarte“ too [I assume she meant this card with good wishes] so you will have happiness and good health. Good bye.
No. 10
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side on the right] Lossen, d[en] 10.6.31 / Lossen, on June 10, 1931
Lieber Schwager und Schwester. Wir gratulieren Rudolf zu seinem Geburtstag. Die Karte hat Kurt aus Brieg mitgebracht. Liebe Schwester, ich habe jetzt auch einen Radioapparat gekauft, einen Mende 38 für 256 Mark / Dear brother-in-law and sister. We congratulate Rudolf to his birthday. Kurt brought the postcard with him from Brieg. Dear sister, I bought a radio, a Mende 38 [You might google this typ to see a picture.], for 256 marks
[Reverse side on the left] Mein lieber kleiner Rudolf. Ich gratuliere dir recht herzlich zu deinem Wiegenfeste. Es ist ja wenig schade daß Du so weit von uns entfernt bist. Und wir Euch lieben Kinderchen mit einem Geschenk erfreuen könnten. Ich wollte mich auf dem xxxamt schon erfragen, was alles verzollt wird? / My dear little Rudolf. I congratulate heartily to your birthday. It is a pity that you a so far away from us. If we only could sent joy to you little childrenwith a present. I even wanted to ask at the customs office what has to be cleared?
No. 13
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] wünscht Dir Lieber Vincent Deine Schwiegermutter / to you dear Vincent from your mother-in-law.
No. 14
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] sendet Dir Lieber Vincent Deine Schwiegermutter / to you dear Vincent from your mother-in-law.
No. 15
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] Liebes Sohndel die Karte kannst du doch nicht lesen. Ich gratuliere Dir zu Deinem Geburtstage. Deine Großmutter. / Dear Sohndel, You can’t read the card. I congratulate to your birthday. Your grandmother.
No. 16
[Front side] Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] sendet Dir liebe Tochter Deine Mutter / to you, dear daughter from your mother
No. 17
[Front side] Herzliche Glückwünsche zum Geburtstage / Happy birthday
[Reverse side] Liebe Tochter, wünsche Dir viel Glück zum Geburtstage, schicke Dir eine Glückskarte das du mächtes gesunt bleiben. Aufwiedersehen / Dear daughter wish you good luck send you a “Glückskarte“ [I assume she meant this card with good wishes] so you will stay healthy. Good bye.
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:22 am
Post subject:
Hi Michael,
Attached is the marriage of George Schwartz and Othilia Stahl, 1625 in Haguenau, Bas-Rhin, France.
Can you please translate? I think some of it is in latin and some in german?
Is Jacob Schwartz his father? Othilia's father is ____? It seems odd name.
Thanks and have a happy easter
| Description: |
| george schwartz othilia stahl marriage |
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george schwartz marriage othilia stahl 1625 page 32 of 108 st nicolas.pdf |
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:23 am
Post subject:
the marriage is on the bottom right.
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:42 am
Post subject:
| a4u2fear wrote: | Hi Michael,
Attached is the marriage of George Schwartz and Othilia Stahl, 1625 in Haguenau, Bas-Rhin, France.
Can you please translate? I think some of it is in latin and some in german?
Is Jacob Schwartz his father? Othilia's father is ____? It seems odd name.
Thanks and have a happy easter |
Hi Andrew,
Some is Latin, most is German. Please find a transcription first:
G. 21 / No. 459 [was added later] Georgius Schwartz et Othilia Stahl
28 Junij Halt. sponsalia Georg Schwartz, Jacob Schwartzen
gewesenen Burgers und Metzgers alhier Seeligen hinterlassener
Sohn mit Othilia, Sipti [i.e. Siptus] Stahls Burgers alhier eheliche dochter
Testes: Frau Michael Schwartz sponsi xxx und
der sponsa pater
The „G.“ as the other acronyms you will find in every entry might indicate the place of residence of the couple.
The words “Halt. sponsalia” are a bit weird. You will find “sponsalia” or fiancées in several other entries, followed by a Latin or German word. Here it is the other way round, nevertheless the meaning might be the same in all cases: “Die Verlobten haben Hochzeit gehalten” or “the fiancées married”.
The short version is: On June 28 [1625] Georg Schwartz, son of the deceased citizen and butcher Jacob Schwarz, married Othilia Stahl, legitimate daughter of the citizen Siptus Stahl.
Witnesses were: the wife of Michael Schwartz [she had a family relationship with the groom, but I am unsure about the next word, that characterizes this relationship, maybe Dave could help] and the father of the bride.
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:39 am
Post subject:
Thank you Michael. Siptus Sipti, that's definitely one I have not heard of before. Another user has this person as Sixti. I guess I will have to find more versions of it to confirm. Have a nice weekend.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:33 pm
Post subject:
| Kmichael8 wrote: | | a4u2fear wrote: | Hi Michael,
Attached is the marriage of George Schwartz and Othilia Stahl, 1625 in Haguenau, Bas-Rhin, France.
Can you please translate? I think some of it is in latin and some in german?
Is Jacob Schwartz his father? Othilia's father is ____? It seems odd name.
Thanks and have a happy easter |
Hi Andrew,
Some is Latin, most is German. Please find a transcription first:
G. 21 / No. 459 [was added later] Georgius Schwartz et Othilia Stahl
28 Junij Halt. sponsalia Georg Schwartz, Jacob Schwartzen
gewesenen Burgers und Metzgers alhier Seeligen hinterlassener
Sohn mit Othilia, Sipti [i.e. Siptus] Stahls Burgers alhier eheliche dochter
Testes: Frau Michael Schwartz sponsi xxx und
der sponsa pater
The „G.“ as the other acronyms you will find in every entry might indicate the place of residence of the couple.
The words “Halt. sponsalia” are a bit weird. You will find “sponsalia” or fiancées in several other entries, followed by a Latin or German word. Here it is the other way round, nevertheless the meaning might be the same in all cases: “Die Verlobten haben Hochzeit gehalten” or “the fiancées married”.
The short version is: On June 28 [1625] Georg Schwartz, son of the deceased citizen and butcher Jacob Schwarz, married Othilia Stahl, legitimate daughter of the citizen Siptus Stahl.
Witnesses were: the wife of Michael Schwartz [she had a family relationship with the groom, but I am unsure about the next word, that characterizes this relationship, maybe Dave could help] and the father of the bride. |
Hi Michael & Andrew,
Michael Schwartz was the uncle of the groom (avunculus) so his wife would be the aunt of the groom by marriage.
The word sponsalia is used in an interesting but rather unusual way. The word sponsalia, sponsaliorum (also sponsalium) means betrothal. It, as well as sponsus and sponsa, all are derived from the verb spondeo, spondere, spopendi, sponsum, to pledge oneself. Before the wedding ceremony the bride and the groom are pledged to each other and the wedding actuates the pledge. That is the sense in which sponsalia is used in the record. The ritual of the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II contained a rite of betrothal. It was separate from being engaged because it involved a formal contractural pledge for a future marriage and involved a ceremony with a blessing by a priest. In the late 19th & early 20th Centuries many parishes in the USA used a “fill in the blanks” marriage register which contained the words “de praesenti matrimonio” (“of the present marriage”). This phrase distinguished the actual marriage rite from the betrothal rite (“de futuro matrimonio”/”of the future marriage”). Both were viewed as contracts which were binding. However, the betrothal contract was not as binding as the actual marriage contract. Jilted betrothed individuals sometimes sued for “breach of promise”.
So much for obscure trivia. Such knowledge probably will not impress the Easter Bunny so don't expect extra candy.
Happy Easter to you both.
Dave
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:06 am
Post subject:
Thanks Dave the for the follow up!
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jmcenaney
Joined: 22 Dec 2020
Replies: 57
Location: Etna, NH, USABack to top |
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:04 pm
Post subject:
Hi, I'm looking to have the first death record on this page translated to English. The indexed information states its a death record for Peter Schalkenbach in the year 1823 in Trier, Germany. His wife is listed as Anna Maria Neusius. Thank you!
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