Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:57 pm
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| mcdonald0517 wrote: | Hello again,
I haven’t been able to find any parish records online, but here is the website for the Gmina (district) of which Ryczów is a part. They have an English version of the website you can select. They have history, culture, and some photos. They also have contact information for the parish.
http://www.spytkowice.net.pl/multimedia/galeria/
Hopefully others from the community will also provide you with resources.
Best,
Cynthia |
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Thank You for the Link!!!! 
Erin
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mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:30 pm
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Well, it seems there is more than one location called Ryczow today.
1. Ryczów [ˈrɨt͡ʂuf] is a village in the administrative district of Gmina Ogrodzieniec, within Zawiercie County, Silesian Voivodeship, in southern Poland
2. Ryczów [ˈrɨt͡ʂuf] is a village in the administrative district of Gmina Spytkowice, within Wadowice County, Lesser Poland Voivodeship, in southern Poland.
If I am understanding the history properly, Silesia was part of Prussia at the time of Jan’s birth, so option 2 in Lesser Poland seems to be the correct place because it was in Galicia. Option 2 is the website link I gave you earlier.
Cynthia
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:40 pm
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| Erin Dziuba wrote: | Hi,
The 'fun' continues. A second church email again failed to provide the Sacramental record but had the details. Interestingly enough the person who sent it to me grandparents were witnesses to my great grandparents wedding. I think we may be related to each other and sent a follow up email to connect. I am still waiting on first papers.
Here are the details:
'Here is the information regarding the marriage of John Dziuba to Mary C. Gron Married November 4, 1913 at St. Hyacinth Church, Auburn, NY by Stanislaus J. Szupa
Joannes Dziuba Parents Franciscus Dziuba and Maria Munica. Baptized 17 NOV 1886 from Rycgow Galicya
Mariana Graj Parents Joanuro Graj and Maria Barczyk
Baptized 9 July 1888 from Dobrociesz Galicya
Witnesses were my grandparents:
Stanislaus Dziuba and Catherina Bodurka who were later married themselves on November 26, 1913'
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They were both baptised in Galicya. Is the a site that might have more details on that area? I believe it is called Kingdom of Galicia. |
Hi Erin & Cynthia,
Ryczów was the site of a R.C. parish and is in woj. małopolskie, pow. Wadowicki, gmina Spytkowice and was and is part of the Archdiocese of Kraków. It appears that the records are not currently available online. Here is a link to the contact information: https://parafiaryczow.pl/kontakt
The parish for Dobrociesz is Wojakowa. The records are housed in the Diocesan Archive in Tarnów. They were filmed but the images have not been digitized on Family Search. The parish registers are broken down by village (including Dobrociesz). It appears that finding them online currently is not an option. Link to Family Search catalog: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/818676?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Just out of curiosity (which was problematic for the proverbial cat) how did Mary (Marianna) Gron morph into Marianna Graj in the same post?
Keep in mind that given names in sacramental registers, both in NY and in Poland, appear in their Latin form. Individuals never used the Latin form of the name, but used the Polish form in Poland and in Polish communities in the USA and used the English form in English speaking communities in the USA. The only realistic possibility for the name which was transcribed as Joanuro is Joannes. Joanuro does not exist in Latin.
Attached is a map of Galicia. Unfortunately, it is not detailed enough to show the places where your ancestors lived.
Wishing you successful searching,
Dave
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:56 am
Post subject:
Just out of curiosity (which was problematic for the proverbial cat) how did Mary (Marianna) Gron morph into Marianna Graj in the same post?
Keep in mind that given names in sacramental registers, both in NY and in Poland, appear in their Latin form. Individuals never used the Latin form of the name, but used the Polish form in Poland and in Polish communities in the USA and used the English form in English speaking communities in the USA. The only realistic possibility for the name which was transcribed as Joanuro is Joannes. Joanuro does not exist in Latin.
Attached is a map of Galicia. Unfortunately, it is not detailed enough to show the places where your ancestors lived.
Wishing you successful searching,
Dave[/quote]
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Thank You Dave. The map is great! I saw the one on Wiki but that has more detail. I am wondering if it is possible the name was changed? Maybe she was the Jewish connection I was suppose to have. Trying to do more research of Dobrociesz/Wojakowa area. I requested the sacramental record again but the person seems to only respond on Wednesday's every time I call I just leave a message. The voicemail said they have different Covid hours so I try at different times.
This is brand new information to me just got it last week and first time I am seeing Graj too.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:29 pm
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| Erin Dziuba wrote: | Thank You Dave. The map is great! I saw the one on Wiki but that has more detail. I am wondering if it is possible the name was changed? Maybe she was the Jewish connection I was suppose to have. Trying to do more research of Dobrociesz/Wojakowa area. I requested the sacramental record again but the person seems to only respond on Wednesday's every time I call I just leave a message. The voicemail said they have different Covid hours so I try at different times.
This is brand new information to me just got it last week and first time I am seeing Graj too. |
Hi Erin,
Since records you need are not available online probably the best approach to obtain records would be to contact either the diocesan archives in Tarnów for the birth & baptism of Mary Gron (or Graj). Here is the contact info for the Diocesan Archive of Tarnów: http://www.archiwum.diecezja.tarnow.pl/kontakt.html
Another option would be to contact the parish. Here is the contact info for the R.C. parish in Wojakowa (Assumption of the Mother of God) : https://wojakowa-wiz.diecezja.tarnow.pl/#adres
For Ryczów it would probably be best to contact the parish. Here is the contact info for R.C. parish in Ryczów (Mother of God Queen of Poland): https://diecezja.pl/parafie/ryczow-parafia-mb-krolowej-polski/ and link to email: https://parafiaryczow.pl/kontakt
In order to get a good response it would be best to write in Polish. For those who do not have a command of written Polish Family Search has a letter writing guide with a variety of sentences to choose from to compose a letter by the cut and paste menthod. Here is the link to Polish letter writing guide on Family Search: https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Poland_Letter_Writing_Guide
Because of the Gron/Graj surname I would suggest including both surnames is your request. My suggestion would be to phrase her surname like the following: “Marianna Gron czyli Graj” or “Marianna Gron lub Graj” or “Marianna Gron albo Graj”. All the examples mean the same thing: “or”. That should cover both possibilities and assure you of a response regardless of which surname is found in the record.
Wishing you success,
Dave
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Piotr ZelnyPolishOrigins Team
Joined: 19 Feb 2019
Replies: 69
Location: SanokBack to top |
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:26 pm
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Hi everyone,
I really love this American – Polish cooperation in searching of roots of Polonia. It does works. Your talent and knowledge at searching American files such as ship manifests, censuses and others, then finding usually distorted names of people and towns and fit them with the names of towns in Poland are really impressive.
Erin, on this side of the ocean we can help you in reconstruction of your family tree through research of the vital books. When your family tree is complete we can help you in reconstruction of the history of your family through non-vital sources. Here, general review.
I’ve checked indexes of causes of the county court of Zator. Ryczów belonged to this judicial circuit. There are names of Dziuba as well as others mentioned in the thread. I think that we can treat it as the confirmation that Ryczów is the right place of the origin of Erin’s family.
The county court of Zator:
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/13/665/0#tabZespol
The act of negotiation of the testament of Jan Dziuba 1915 – 1917:
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/13/665/0/3/600?q=rycz%C3%B3w+XDSTOPz:[*+TO+1920]&wynik=41&rpp=15&page=3#tabJednostka
Duplicates of the vital books of Ryczów are kept in the Diocesan Archive in Krakow:
Baptisms: 1819 – 1850, 1873 – 1875, 1880 – 1888
Marriages: 1819 – 1850, 1872 – 1875, 1880 – 1888
Burials: 1819 – 1850, 1872 – 1875, 1880 – 1888
Original vital books are kept in the archive of the parish of Ryczów. It must be checked, there might be older books than these kept in diocese and these which are missing. Dave has provided you the address of the parish of Ryczów and a guide of how to write the request.
The village of Ryczów had been established by monks of the Cistercian monastery from Mogiła and it belonged to the monastery till 1790.
I have checked the register of archival collections kept in the monastery. The register is pretty old but there is no contemporary one. However the information must be confirmed on the spot in the monastery. The monastery’s collection numbers 19 000 positions, nowadays. At least over 600 of them are manuscripts which are the most important in researches. I’ve just generally run through this register, it needs definitely longer studies.
So, there are many interesting files about both the village and its inhabitants since middle ages till the 19th c. The most interesting files for genealogical researches are obviously registers of people. I have found two registers of feudal obligations where the local peasants are listed by name and surname. Such documents usually provides information about property of particular peasants, their serfdom duties, taxes, tributes and other. The documents help to define the social and material position of the family among the village society.
The first document dates back to 1625, the second one to January 20, 1738. There can be more such documents in the collection.
There is also another manuscript which is kept in the Library of Jagiellonian University in Krakow. This is a court book of the court of Ryczów from the years 1776 – 1800 and a land registration book from 1776 – 1853. They are sewed together. I’ve seen this book, 262 pages of handwriting of many different scribes. It contains invaluable information for genealogists, such as testaments, legal cases, property, land and buildings possession etc. Sometimes even very personal info like marital disputes and moral cases. Most cases in this book refer definitely to the 18th c.
In Krakow archive, you can find also registers of peasants listed by name and surname as well as their property, serfdom, duties etc. form the 1850’s as well as lists of voters from 1860’s – 1870’s.
I’ve checked some selected catalogues of Lvov Archive in Ukraine. There are registers of peasants who held the house and cultivate the land of the village of Ryczów from 1785-88. Similar from 1819 – 20. However, this latter document must be checked on the spot because it might not contain the register of peasants as this document was just update to the previous one. There are to be another registers from 1772 – 1773, 1789 and maybe more. There should be cadastral maps of the village (very detailed) and registers of house owners (along with the maps, they enable to find the family house) from the 1850’s – it is not confirmed and must be checked on the spot in Lvov.
This is not full research but just review of research possibilities. I’ve concentrated on the files prior to 1870’s.
Here you can find more details about our services: https://polishorigins.com/genealogy/
Good luck
Piotr
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:55 pm
Post subject:
Hi,
I did get the sacramental marriage license which I will post below. My DNA results came in from Ansestrycom and I matched with a dziuba that was related to the Dziuba that was on the marriage license as a witness. The Auburn church sent me both my great grandparents and his great grandparents records. Mine is on top and his is on the bottom. He had more information and emailed me a photo from a family picnic. It does kind of look like Graj to me not Gron. Gron is on her grave stone and every other document I can find.
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 pm
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Part 2
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:55 am
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I think I found your great great grandfather's immigration record https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JNT3-5PT indexed under Johann Dziuba (John in English, Jan in Polish, Johann in Latin) in May, 1913 on the Grosser Kurfurst. According to the index, this Johann is from Ryczow, Galicia leaving behind a brother Jozef Dziuba and going to his cousin, Josef Monica. Monica could fit in as a variation or mispelling of his mother's maiden name. Looking at the record, I had trouble reading the town where Josef Monica was and where he was traveling to.
Good luck!
Note, familysearch is free but you need to sign in to see the information.
Good luck
Edit - Erin - see note below from dnowicki (Dave) pointing out that Johann was the name in German - not Latin.
Last edited by looking for clues on Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:17 am
Post subject:
| looking for clues wrote: | I think I found your great great grandfather's immigration record https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JNT3-5PT indexed under Johann Dziuba (John in English, Jan in Polish, Johann in Latin) in May, 1913 on the Grosser Kurfurst. According to the index, this Johann is from Ryczow, Galicia leaving behind a brother Jozef Dziuba and going to his cousin, Josef Monica. Monica could fit in as a variation or mispelling of his mother's maiden name. Looking at the record, I had trouble reading the town where Josef Monica was and where he was traveling to.
Good luck!
Note, familysearch is free but you need to sign in to see the information.
Good luck |
Hi Erin & Looking for clues,
The parish priest (Stanislaus/Stanisław J. Szupa, who was of Polish extraction) definitely entered Marianna’s maiden name as Graj, not Gron. The most likely explanation lies in the kinds of records found in the USA. She appears as Gron on the civil marriage license. Keep in mind that the clerk who issued the license probably did not speak Polish and thus entered the name as he interpreted what he heard. (Gravestones are among the least reliable sources of info for details other that the date of death since the info was provided by someone who may or may not have had the correct information.) The records from the church are not a license. They are the ecclesiastical record of a marriage which had taken place. Priests, especially in immigrant communities, were under no obligation to record the surnames in the church record exactly as they appeared on the civil license since the church record was entirely distinct from the civil license. It was common for parish priests to fill out the return portion of the license with the spelling as it appeared on the top part of the license. (That was how they were able to fulfill the civil part of their role in the marriage.) However, since the parish record had a distinct purpose from the civil record, they would enter the surnames with the correct ethnic spelling of the surname. Also, it is important to remember that in RC church registers the surnames were entered in their vernacular (in this case Polish) form but the given names were entered in their Latin form. Church records were about the only place a person’s given name appeared in Latin and probabloy most individuals were not aware of what their name was in Latin. The bottom line is that Latin given names in church records should be translated into the vernacular. In a Polish community like the parish in Auburn that meant either the Polish or the English form of the name. If you take Franciscus Dziuba as an example, his name was Franciszek in Polish and Francis (formal) or Frank (informal) in English. The earlier advice on how to obtain the birth/baptism records from Poland remains the same.
The arrival manifest is a valuable document to add to your genealogy files. It adds many details of his life in the USA. For the sake of accuracy his name appears in its German version, Johann. The Latin version is what appears in the church marriage record—Joannes. The name most likely appears in German because he was sailing from the German port of Bremen on a vessel of the North German Lloyd Company (Norddeutscher Lloyd), the SS Grosser Kurfürst, and the arrival manifest was composed using the information provided on the sailing manifest composed in Germany. Attached is a picture of the ship.
Wishing you continued success,
Dave
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:50 am
Post subject:
| looking for clues wrote: | I think I found your great great grandfather's immigration record https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JNT3-5PT indexed under Johann Dziuba (John in English, Jan in Polish, Johann in Latin) in May, 1913 on the Grosser Kurfurst. According to the index, this Johann is from Ryczow, Galicia leaving behind a brother Jozef Dziuba and going to his cousin, Josef Monica. Monica could fit in as a variation or mispelling of his mother's maiden name. Looking at the record, I had trouble reading the town where Josef Monica was and where he was traveling to.
Good luck!
Note, familysearch is free but you need to sign in to see the information.
Good luck |
Hi,
I can help with that tiny detail. The residence of the cousin, Jozef, was Olympia Street (looks like house #23) in Auburn, NY.
Best,
Sophia
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looking for cluesPO Top Contributor
Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Replies: 122
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:42 am
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Erin, Dave and Sophia -
Dave - thank you for the correction on Johann being the German verion of the name not the Latin one and the likely explanation as to why it appears that way - it is much better to have that accurately stated. After going to bed, I realized I should have double checked the Johann name and planned to look it up today.
Erin - based on Dave's helpful correction, my sentence should read "indexed under Johann Dziuba (John in English, Jan in Polish, Joannes in Latin and Johann in German)."
Sophia - thanks for figuring out the address and location for Jozef - I can see it now that you point that out.
Diane
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:22 pm
Post subject:
Thanks everyone! Such useful information Auburn is where they got married so it makes sense that it is where they were heading.
Sophia - I didn't know it was his cousin or that he left behind a brother. Love the new info!
'looking for clues' I think you found his ship! I do have family search and the info matches a lot better than what I thought was his previously. I am terrible at reading older script so the translations are quite helpful.
Dave- Thank you for the name guidance and church information that has been a big help!
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:45 pm
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Hi Again,
Lots of new information to go through. Jan (John) Groń B. 27 DEC 1827 is my 2nd great grandfather he Married Katarzyna Barczyk. His occupation is listed as soldier. Is there a site where the military records or photos are kept that might list his history and recognitions (if any)? Bonus if translated to English.
Thanks!
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:00 pm
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Also, I believe this is the ship for Jan Dziuba but I do not see in when I search on Ellis Island records site and on when I pulled up a manifest on a different site from Family search I couldn't find his name on it. Any suggestions on why this record doesn't come up anywhere but Family Search?
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