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starshadow
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Post Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:32 pm      Post subject: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860
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I've recently discovered through a DNA site that I and some of my Polish relatives share large segments (almost whole chromosomes) with people from the Veneto region of Northeastern Italy, and their relatives in Sao Paulo Brazil. The total shared percentages range from 1 to 2%, which indicate relationships as close as 3rd cousin.

I've also verified those segments come from my great-grandmother Wiktorya Kurek's family. Wiktorya was born in 1887 near Krosno Poland. Her parents were Grzegorz Kurek (born 1861), and Jozefa Wilk (born 1864). Grzegorz's mother's name was Zofia Kurek, his father's name unknown.

One DNA site specifies those segments come from:

Italy (Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia)
Group ID: 5811
About this Genetic Group:
Italians in Italy (Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia) and some of their descendants in Brazil (São Paulo)
DNA kits used to form this group: 562
DNA kits linked to family trees: 277
Confidence level: Medium

Researching the Kurek/ Wilk family in Krosno has been the most difficult of all my Polish lines. Not only due to the dearth of microfilmed records from those parishes in Southeastern Poland (Krosno, Zrecin, etc.). But also because of Grzegorz's unknown paternity. The DNA findings lead me to strongly suspect Grzegorz's father might have been from Italy.

Does anyone know anything about Italians in Poland during that time period? Considering that Krosno and Venice were both under Habsburg control, on opposite sides of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. I have heard there were Italian craftsmen, artists, and merchants working in Poland. As well as a garrison of Austrian troops stationed in Krosno. Are there any good historical sources? Anything that might shed more light on this fascinating family history puzzle. Thanks.


Last edited by starshadow on Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:07 pm      Post subject:
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Here are the segments I share with an unusually close match from Sao Paulo Brazil, whose ancestry is from the Veneto Region of Italy. I've verified all these segments come from my great-grandmother Wiktorya Kurek's side, she being born in Krosno Poland in 1887. All of these segments have been identified as Italian. But I have no known Italian ancestors in my family tree.


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Sophia
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Post Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:56 pm      Post subject: Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860
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starshadow wrote:
I've recently discovered through a DNA site that I and some of my Polish relatives share large segments (almost whole chromosomes) with people from the Veneto region of Northeastern Italy, and their relatives in Sao Paulo Brazil. The total shared percentages range from 1 to 2%, which indicate relationships as close as 3rd cousin.

I've also verified those segments come from my great-grandmother Wiktorya Kurek's family. Wiktorya was born in 1887 near Krosno Poland. Her parents were Grzegorz Kurek (born 1861), and Jozefa Wilk (born 1864). Grzegorz's mother's name was Zofia Kurek, his father's name unknown.

One DNA site specifies those segments come from:

Italy (Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia)
Group ID: 5811
About this Genetic Group:
Italians in Italy (Veneto and Friuli-Venezia Giulia) and some of their descendants in Brazil (São Paulo)
DNA kits used to form this group: 562
DNA kits linked to family trees: 277
Confidence level: Medium

Researching the Kurek/ Wilk family in Krosno has been the most difficult of all my Polish lines. Not only due to the dearth of microfilmed records from those parishes in Southeastern Poland (Krosno, Zrecin, etc.). But also because of Grzegorz's unknown paternity. The DNA findings lead me to strongly suspect Grzegorz's father might have been from Italy.

Does anyone know anything about Italians in Poland during that time period? Considering that Krosno and Venice were both under Habsburg control, on opposite sides of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. I have heard there were Italian craftsmen, artists, and merchants working in Poland. As well as a garrison of Austrian troops stationed in Krosno. Are there any good historical sources? Anything that might shed more light on this fascinating family history puzzle. Thanks.


Hi Starshadow,
There is a marvelous connection between Poland and Italy. King Sigismund I married his second wife, Bona Sforza of Italy, in 1518. You can read about her online. Apparently, she took rather an active role as queen.
Also, it seems that the Polish language adopted some Italian words. For example, the Polish word for tomato, pomidor, comes from the Italian word pomodoro. Polish makaron is from Italian maccheroni, and even the word for chocolate, czekolada, comes from cioccolata. Not only food related words! There is also the word for palace, pałac, which comes from palazzo.
Of course, none of this really helps you with your particular family, especially since you are looking for a connection in the 1800s, but it is fun nonetheless. Wouldn't it be great to have some family ties that go back to Queen Bona Sforza?
Best of luck as you continue your search,
Sophia
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MikeP



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Post Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:22 pm      Post subject: Italians in Krosno
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You may want to take a look at the Polish Surnames book by William Hoffman. Page 183 of the 3rd edition has a brief discussion of Italian-derived Polish Surnames. This may provide some additional insights.
Best of luck with your research!
Mike
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:52 pm      Post subject: Re: Italians in Krosno
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MikeP wrote:
You may want to take a look at the Polish Surnames book by William Hoffman. Page 183 of the 3rd edition has a brief discussion of Italian-derived Polish Surnames. This may provide some additional insights.
Best of luck with your research!
Mike


Thanks Mike. I'll check it out.
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:59 pm      Post subject: Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860
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Sophia wrote:
Hi Starshadow,
There is a marvelous connection between Poland and Italy. King Sigismund I married his second wife, Bona Sforza of Italy, in 1518. You can read about her online. Apparently, she took rather an active role as queen.
Also, it seems that the Polish language adopted some Italian words. For example, the Polish word for tomato, pomidor, comes from the Italian word pomodoro. Polish makaron is from Italian maccheroni, and even the word for chocolate, czekolada, comes from cioccolata. Not only food related words! There is also the word for palace, pałac, which comes from palazzo.
Of course, none of this really helps you with your particular family, especially since you are looking for a connection in the 1800s, but it is fun nonetheless. Wouldn't it be great to have some family ties that go back to Queen Bona Sforza?
Best of luck as you continue your search,
Sophia


Thanks Sophia. Very fascinating. I read the Wikipedia article about Queen Bona Sforza. I noticed this part:

"Artistic patronage. Alongside her husband's profound interest in the revival of classical antiquity, Bona was instrumental in developing the Polish Renaissance. She brought renowned Italian artists, architects and sculptors from her native country. Her most known artistic involvement were the expansion of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania in Vilnius[2] and the construction of Ujazdów Castle, which included a large park and a menagerie. The plans were prepared by Bartolomeo Berrecci da Pontassieve, who designed several other projects in Poland."
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:46 pm      Post subject: Re: Italians in Krosno Poland 1860
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starshadow wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Hi Starshadow,
There is a marvelous connection between Poland and Italy. King Sigismund I married his second wife, Bona Sforza of Italy, in 1518. You can read about her online. Apparently, she took rather an active role as queen.
Also, it seems that the Polish language adopted some Italian words. For example, the Polish word for tomato, pomidor, comes from the Italian word pomodoro. Polish makaron is from Italian maccheroni, and even the word for chocolate, czekolada, comes from cioccolata. Not only food related words! There is also the word for palace, pałac, which comes from palazzo.
Of course, none of this really helps you with your particular family, especially since you are looking for a connection in the 1800s, but it is fun nonetheless. Wouldn't it be great to have some family ties that go back to Queen Bona Sforza?
Best of luck as you continue your search,
Sophia


Thanks Sophia. Very fascinating. I read the Wikipedia article about Queen Bona Sforza. I noticed this part:

"Artistic patronage. Alongside her husband's profound interest in the revival of classical antiquity, Bona was instrumental in developing the Polish Renaissance. She brought renowned Italian artists, architects and sculptors from her native country. Her most known artistic involvement were the expansion of the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania in Vilnius[2] and the construction of Ujazdów Castle, which included a large park and a menagerie. The plans were prepared by Bartolomeo Berrecci da Pontassieve, who designed several other projects in Poland."


My cousin in Poland recently sent me scans of some pages from a local history book about Krosno and Zręcin. Here's an interesting mention of Queen Bona Sforza visiting Zręcin, where my great grandmother Wiktorya Kurek was born, although 3 and a half centuries later (translated the best I could):

Queen Bona visited Zręcin.
The year 1526 is related to a local legend which concerns Queen Bona Sworza d 'Aragon. (1494-1557), the second wife of Sigismund I the Old. Coming from Milan, trying to strengthen the royal treasury, she conducted a revision of the privileges and land grants of the nobility, and in 1524 she started the action of purchasing the lands. These actions provoked the opposition of the Polish nobility and led to a noble rebellion, i.e. the Chicken War (1537), which was directed against Bona.
In external policy, she supported Jan Zapolya (later husband of Izabela - daughter of Bona), in his fights for the Hungarian crown with the Habsburgs.
Therefore, around 1526, he secretly went to Hungary. Bearing in mind the unfavorable nobility, fearing for her life, she followed sideways so as not to be recognized.
According to the legend, passed on by the local population, it was at this time that Queen Bona came to Zręcin. On her way to Hungary, the night found her here. That's why she had to stop. She spent it in a tavern in Zręcin. Some claim that the inn was located on ul. Łukasiewicz in the place where the distillery will later stand, and then the Ciołkosz tavern.



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sirdan
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:37 pm      Post subject:
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Hi!
Here is an article about Italian artists hired in Krosno https://www.academia.edu/45305069/Dzia%C5%82alno%C5%9B%C4%87_artyst%C3%B3w_w%C5%82oskich_w_Kro%C5%9Bnie_w_XVII_stuleciu_w_Arty%C5%9Bci_w%C5%82oscy_na_ziemiach_po%C5%82udniowo_wschodniej_Rzeczypospolitej_w_czasach_nowo%C5%BCytnych_Artisti_italiani_nelle_Terre_sud_est_Della_Rebubblica_Polacca_nell_epoca_moderna_Praca_zbiorowa_pod_red_Piotra_%C5%81opatkiewicza_Rzesz%C3%B3w_%C5%81a%C5%84cut_2016

This paper says Tomasz Dolabella, one of the italian artists living in Krosno came from Venezia.

I doubt an italian farmer would come to galicia and settle here. If You suspect Italian heritage, it would come from a noble, a merchandiser or a soldier. Or finally some artist. The other question is - can autosomal DNA be detected after ancestror from XVII century Question
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:41 am      Post subject:
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sirdan wrote:
Hi!
Here is an article about Italian artists hired in Krosno https://www.academia.edu/45305069/Dzia%C5%82alno%C5%9B%C4%87_artyst%C3%B3w_w%C5%82oskich_w_Kro%C5%9Bnie_w_XVII_stuleciu_w_Arty%C5%9Bci_w%C5%82oscy_na_ziemiach_po%C5%82udniowo_wschodniej_Rzeczypospolitej_w_czasach_nowo%C5%BCytnych_Artisti_italiani_nelle_Terre_sud_est_Della_Rebubblica_Polacca_nell_epoca_moderna_Praca_zbiorowa_pod_red_Piotra_%C5%81opatkiewicza_Rzesz%C3%B3w_%C5%81a%C5%84cut_2016

This paper says Tomasz Dolabella, one of the italian artists living in Krosno came from Venezia.

I doubt an italian farmer would come to galicia and settle here. If You suspect Italian heritage, it would come from a noble, a merchandiser or a soldier. Or finally some artist. The other question is - can autosomal DNA be detected after ancestror from XVII century Question


Thank you very much Sirdan. This is an excellent article. It surely matches with the other clues I'm finding.

I find it interesting that there was such a big artist community in Krosno. I have another document along that line which I'll post shortly.

As for the Autosomal DNA evidence, I have seen substantial segments going back at least 7 generations, to ancestors from the 18th century. As well as modern-day matches with distant cousins descended from those same common ancestors. So I suspect 17th century or earlier could show up too.

But the segment sizes which I'm finding in this case are much larger, and hint at a much more recent ancestor. They point to a 3rd-great grandparent. I believe someone who lived in the 19th century.
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:15 pm      Post subject:
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Here is a copy of an 1870 marriage bann from Krosno. The marriage was to be between my 2nd-great-grandmother Jozefa Wilk's mother Magdalena Wilk and Magdalena's fiancé Walęty Długosz.

As far as I can find out, all 3 banns were announced, but the marriage never happened. The only clue I can find is in the comments section, where I think it says "rozeszło sie". In other words, "they split". Jozefa was born in 1864, and would have been about 6 in 1870, so it's unsure if Walęty was her real father.

Walęty Długosz is obviously a Polish name, so I don't believe he would be my mysterious Italian ancestor. But what's even more intriguing, is his vocation is listed as "profesje malarz", which I think means professional painter. In other words an artist? But that establishes another link with the artist community in Krosno.

I might even wonder if Magdalena was an artist herself?



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starshadow
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Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:47 pm      Post subject:
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I guess I should post these also. These are the birth records of my 2nd-great-grandparents, Grzegorz Kurek (born 1861 in Bieździadka, but grew up in Zręcin), and Jozefa Wilk (born 1864 in Krosno). They married in 1885 in Krosno. They were the parents of my great-grandmother Wiktorya Kurek. They were both listed as illegitimate. I have no clues as to who their fathers were.


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sirdan
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Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:06 pm      Post subject:
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Hi starshadow

Those metrical records are interesting mystery. I looked on mariage ban. It says "z profesji malarz" which means "his profession is a painter". Cant jugde if it is a description for an artist or a craftsman.

We have some luck though. It looks like Krosno metrical books BMD are transcribed and visible in geneteka. Here is a marriage between Franciszek Długosz and Katarzyna Zaydel (Zajdel) from 1823 https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=S&w=09pk&rid=S&search_lastname=d%C5%82ugosz&search_name=franciszek&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

Also there is Walenty born on 1825 (no parents listed though) and other one on 1840. There is Franciszek born 1793 (no parents too). Does it suits Your Długosz family? There might be more.
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:30 pm      Post subject:
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sirdan wrote:
Hi starshadow

Those metrical records are interesting mystery. I looked on mariage ban. It says "z profesji malarz" which means "his profession is a painter". Cant jugde if it is a description for an artist or a craftsman.

We have some luck though. It looks like Krosno metrical books BMD are transcribed and visible in geneteka. Here is a marriage between Franciszek Długosz and Katarzyna Zaydel (Zajdel) from 1823 https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=gt&lang=eng&bdm=S&w=09pk&rid=S&search_lastname=d%C5%82ugosz&search_name=franciszek&search_lastname2=&search_name2=&from_date=&to_date=

Also there is Walenty born on 1825 (no parents listed though) and other one on 1840. There is Franciszek born 1793 (no parents too). Does it suits Your Długosz family? There might be more.


Thanks Sirdan. Those must be the same Długosz family I have. I believe the Walenty born in 1840 is mine. I will add those records to my tree.

There are so many theories which spring to mind about who was whom. Was Walenty really Jozefa's father? Or maybe he was friends with Jozefa's father? Were they both artists in Krosno?

I'm wondering if Poland went through a period of artistic expression in the latter 19th century. Perhaps they developed their own styles, or were influenced by the other Impressionist painters of Europe. Perhaps Krosno and other Polish cities had their own artistic "Montmartre" districts, like Paris did.
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:48 pm      Post subject:
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Zofia Kurek's story is just as intriguing. Why was she in Bieździadka, so far away from home, when she had her son Grzegorz? Why wasn't she with the rest of her family in Zręcin? Grzegorz's baptism even notes she was "advena a Zręcin", "the stranger from Zręcin". Was she staying with friends or relatives? Or was she following someone? Perhaps Grzegorz's father? Was he the artist from Venice? The mystery deepens.
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Piotr Zelny
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Post Posted: 6 Days ago at 11:52 am      Post subject:
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Hi Starshadow,

your story seems to be like a brick wall situation. I’ve got some new clues for you. I hope they’ll help a bit or provide some explanation at least.

The 2nd half of the 19th c. is the time of very fast economic and industrial development of Galicia. The development was faster here than in many other Austrian lands. It doesn’t mean that Galicia was better developed than the others. Galicia just started from the bottom, typical agricultural country, the source of row materials for Austrian industry and market for the Austrian products. It seems like colonial relation between the heartland and a borderland.

However, the fast development was limited to particular territories of Galicia, especially to big cities like Lviv and Krakow as well as to a triangle situated between Krosno – Borysław – Przemyśl. The main branches of development were the oil industry and exploitation of Carpathian forests. The development of one branch generates development of many other branches. For example, exploitation of Carpathian forests was enabled owe to construction of railways crossing the Carpathian passes from north to south. It resulted in construction of numerous lines of narrow-gauge railroads connecting for the first time the pristine mountain valleys with the main railways. It enabled to transport the wood. The railway between Przemyśl (60 miles to Krosno near Zręcin) and Budapest was built in order to connect the fortress of Przemyśl with the Austrian heartland. The fortress was the biggest such construction in Austria and generally in central and eastern Europe. The exploitation of the Carpathian forests resulted in establishing many very modern steam lumber mills and so on, so on. Such fast development of this particular region (Krosno – Borysław – Przemyśl) needed many hands to work, non-qualified common workers as well as qualified specialists. So soon, there appeared many newcomers (workers), predominantly men, from other regions of Galicia as well as other Austrian lands.

Let’s narrow down our contemplation to the main subject-matter that is your family of Kurek/Wilk branch of Italian origin. The alpines regions of north-eastern Italy, especially Trento (southern Tyrol) which belonged to Austria, were known of its stonemason specialists. They had been employing in construction sites in many different places (some of them built the West Point). They moved from one construction site to another, that was their life.

The co-partnership’s which invested in the narrow-gauge railroads in our (your and main) region brought the whole big group of specialists, stonemasons from the region of Trento (north-eastern Italy). They built stone pillars for wooden bridges, culverts, viaducts and other constructions in the Carpathian Mountains. Most of the constructions are forested nowadays but still one can find them when hiking while fragments of the narrow-gauge railroads are still in use for touristic purposes. Some of Italian stonemasons stayed in Poland and their descendants live here in the mountains to this day, the families of Mainardi (Cisna, Liszna), Podobrini (Cisna). The surname of your great…grandma was Wilk. It’s very popular surname, it means a wolf. Certain Antoni Wilk was employed as a worker in steam lumber mill in Majdan near Cisna in 1900 where the Italian workers stayed, too.

The coming of many young, strong men resulted in many short relationships and a number of illegitimate children.

The main construction sites in Krosno – Sanok – Przemysl – Cisna region where stonemasons specialists were needed:
- the railway line, co-called transversal railway from Czadca (Slovakia) to Husiatyn (Ukraine) through Krosno near Zręcin and Sanok, constructed between 1872 - 1884
- the line of Przemysl – Budapest through Sanok, constructed between 1869 – 1872
- local lines of narrow-gauge railroads had been built since the 90’s of the 19th c.
- the fortress of Przemysl, constructed between 1871 – 1914

Wish you lot of good lack in this cause, very interesting one,
Piotr
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