Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:57 pm
Post subject: Correct spelling of Arcziska
Hi again, I'm trying to find information on my maternal grandmother but I'm having difficulty with her last name. So far, I can not find any records prior to her marriage to my grandfather. I have the marriage records of most of her many children and on each one, they spelled her name differently. I have done some searching but the possibilities are endless. Would anyone who knows the Polish language let me know if any of the choices below are more or less likely?
Her first name was Magdalena but her last is:
Arcziska - 1910 Marriage record from the State of Pennsylvania
Archiski
Arcezwski
Arciszewski
Arczekski
Archiczski
And some of her children Americanized her name to Margaret Archer.
I am told she came from Warsaw in 1907 at the age of 17 to work for a family named Mozdy in Erie Pennsylvania. Her approx birth year is 1890 by this calculation. Her 1910 marriage license states she was 21 and born in 1888. Any opinions on the more correct spelling of her surname would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Michelle
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:33 am
Post subject:
Hi Michelle,
Hopefully someone that knows more about the Polish language will answer your question, but I can offer you a few thoughts. Years ago in the U.S., as I'm sure in other countries, it seems the sound was more important than the spelling. I've seen a surname spelled more than one way in the page of a document. It seems that Social Security made people stick with one spelling, but of course you can find siblings with different spellings. You also have to consider who it was that wrote down the name - it could have been a stranger that didn't care how it was spelled.
I had a similiar situation. On my grandfather's Social Security application it said his mother's maiden name was Bortsky. I didn't find a Polish surname spelled that way. I tried many different ways to spell it. It was my mother's cousin who knew that it was Boczkaj. I believe it was most likely my grandfather's boss that filled out that application. My grandfather signed it, but it wasn't his handwriting on the rest of it. In the great scheme of things, it didn't matter how her name was spelled - except to me who spent $27. to find that out, and to find out the town where he was born, when the only thing written for his birthplace was POLAND!
I believe that the letters cz make the ch sound (anyone can correct that if I'm wrong), so the fact that children shortened the name to Archer makes me believe that was part of the original spelling of her name. Oh, and it looks like her surname was one that in which the females ended in a, and the males ended in i, so that accounts for that variation. Coming through Ellis Island I found 3 with the surname Arczewski, and 5 with the surname Arczewska (unfortunately no Magdalena), so that could POSSIBLY be the name. It is not one of the spellings you had, but seems to kind of combine them...It also looks like a surname that could be hard for an Ellis Island indexer to figure out if the handwriting was sloppy, so it could be that she came through that port and her name isn't spelled as it should be in the index.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:18 pm
Post subject:
Thank you Cheri for taking the time to answer my question. I have looked at Ellis Island and found similar last names, none of the other information seems to fit though. I've also checked the LDS website and ancestry.com. With so many possible variantions, I've started with the very basic and just started looking at everybody. It takes time but I've waited this long so I'll just keep plugging along.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:32 pm
Post subject:
Although CZ is the most frequent, using an I to "soften" the consonant or adding an accent mark above the letter is common enough. For example: Arcieska/ski or Arceska/ski ? Arcieszka? Another consideration using imagination, is role-playing the arrival and a clerk at Ellis trying to understand. My mother in-law says "C" when she means "S", confuses my wife but I'm more linguistically tolerant. Try Arsieska or Arsiewska or Arszewska, Arsewska. Hope it helps, I survived Chicago Public Schools system teachers butchering my name for weeks on end, Ellis Island people only had one shot to get it right.
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:00 pm
Post subject:
Don't give up Michelle, I know how hard it can be. Do you have, or can you get, Magdalena's husband's naturalization papers? I was told that those papers will have where the wife is from too, and possibly when she arrived. I imagine that it's also another source where her maiden name would be written.
I also searched for my grandmother at Ellis Island for 10 years on and off, and very recently a kind soul found her there. Her name, Aniela Lenart, was indexed as Anieta Seuard. I can imagine how a surname like your grandmother's could really be indexed incorrectly.
I had asked the question on a different forum if my grandmother would have been naturalized herself, or would she have just became a citizen when my grandfather did (they married in 1917). That's what I thought I had read. Someone told me to look at the census, and I did see in 1920 & 1930 that she had al in that column - she was an alien who hadn't registered yet, while her husband had pa in that column - he had filed papers. My aunt remembered my grandfather studying for his citizenship test, she hadn't said anything about my grandmother. I would have definitely gotten the papers for my grandmother if she had applied. I had known where my grandfather came from, but still thought I'd get his papers someday. Now it sounds like I would have saved myself some grief if I would have sent for them when I didn't know where my grandmother was from.
One more thing - you said that Magdalena was from Warsaw, and she very well might be, but sometimes I think people might have said the nearest town to their village. When she was working on a genealogy homework project in high school, my sister wrote down that our grandmother was from Novy Tark. So I looked around and figured she meant Nowy Targ, however that was a bigger town than she had described living in. I figured it was in the Nowy Targ area, and it turned out that it was - Zaluczne. So, unless your grandmother spoke of Warsaw to someone, and you are sure that is where she is from, you might want to consider the surrounding area.
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
Replies: 504
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:11 pm
Post subject:
| Hussar wrote: | | Although CZ is the most frequent, using an I to "soften" the consonant or adding an accent mark above the letter is common enough. For example: Arcieska/ski or Arceska/ski ? Arcieszka? Another consideration using imagination, is role-playing the arrival and a clerk at Ellis trying to understand. My mother in-law says "C" when she means "S", confuses my wife but I'm more linguistically tolerant. Try Arsieska or Arsiewska or Arszewska, Arsewska. Hope it helps, I survived Chicago Public Schools system teachers butchering my name for weeks on end, Ellis Island people only had one shot to get it right. |
Hussar, I appreciate your comments. I have been recently curious about how names were entered on a manifest, and if the same name could possibly be entered differently on the departure list than on the arrival list. Previously I had pictured emigrants/immigrants telling their names, but now I wonder if they weren't copied from their papers (sloppily copied sometimes). Does anyone know?
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:17 pm
Post subject:
Carole, my grandfather does have pa on the 1930 census I will definitely have to explore that option and yes I am suspect that she was from Warsaw, considering that none of the children could spell her name the same who knows what they were saying about the town she came from.  My grandfather's name was John (Jan) Kloszewski much more commom so I have lots to choose from but no direct hits yet.
I have 4 polish grandparents, 3 of which were deceased by the time I was born. Most of my aunts and uncles are dead also and my mother is the only living child out of 9, I am pulling as much info from her as I can. I will definitely pursue the naturalization paperwork option, I haven't done any of that yet.
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:45 am
Post subject:
Michelle, I can easily see how many ways it could be mangled. 1st letter: Z, in Polish much like our Z. In german more like Polish C which is our "TS" next letter vowel, Polish "Y" is like our i as used in "in" or "ill" Americans always transverse polish Y's and I's for example: Katyn forest was pronounced Kateene, not "cat-in-forest" as should be. 3rd: the vowel after the G, definitely germanic and may not be original, some linguistic families cant always connect certain consonant sounds without an unnecessary vowel. Serbo-Croatian is often ridiculed for it's lack of vowels. Bottom line: "Tsing-e-le-veetch" may take some tries to recreate the original. Cynglewicz? Zyngliewicz? Anything was possible at Bremen or Hamburg and then Ellis Island. BTW, I am Daniel if you prefer using my christian name. Hussar is fine as well.
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:36 am
Post subject:
Hi Daniel,
thanks for the information on the Polish language. My parents spoke Polish when I was very little but when my grandparents died, no one used it anymore so I am very glad you have given me some background on the pronunciation and spelling.
I have had some help and a lot of luck finding information about my grandfather Zingelewicz. Up until the 1920s or 1930s my grandfather was spelling the name Zengelewicz. When I googled the name Zengelewicz I found some lists online for Jewish surnames. The name appears on a .pdf file for Jewish surnames in Kutno 1808-1942. I found this very interesting because my one aunt always claimed we were part Jewish. don't know if this is true but it makes for an interesting trail to follow. My grandfather married in Chicago at St. John Cantius Church so I have no idea of there is a connection with any Jewish relatives. I am going to try other variations of the name, including the ones you suggested and see where that may lead me also.
Thanks again for your insight and help.
Michelle
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:28 pm
Post subject:
Michelle, St. John Cantius is still around. I was at the funeral home down the street for a wake (Arlene Skully, she, her daughter Laura and I served on the Chicago ABATE board together) with the funeral mass at St. John's. They were also part Jewish, Laura married John Evans who is Jewish. The proximity of St. John's to Ogden Ave, Chicago Ave, Halsted St, etc. was mixed-european cultural.
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SlavPolishOrigins Team
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Replies: 172
Location: Warsaw, PolandBack to top |
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:36 pm
Post subject:
Hello Michelle,
I've just read this thread. The most likely spelling is Arciszewski. I've made a search using the Polish Databases tool - no results for "Magdalena Arciszewska", but you may be interested in pages mentioning the name.
http://polishorigins.com/databases/index?s=+Arciszewska+Warszawa
As Cheri rightly pointed out, the -a ending is typical for female surnames (Arciszewska), and the -i ending for male surnames (Arciszewski). And the plural is Arciszewscy. I can understand how difficult it was to spell it right for an Ellis Island clerk. Are-Chi-CHEF-ski is approximately how you pronounce the name.
Another possible variant is Arczewska. I've found a living person by the name Magdalena Arczewska , a sociologist and law expert http://www.isns.uw.edu.pl/o_instytucie_pracownicy_arczewska.php and http://pl.linkedin.com/pub/magdalena-arczewska/9/656/78b
Not much help, I'm afraid.
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SlavPolishOrigins Team
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Replies: 172
Location: Warsaw, PolandBack to top |
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:49 pm
Post subject: Zingielewicz
As for Zingielewicz, in Polish it would be spelled Zyngielewicz, and it seems to be of German origin, see: http://www.stankiewicze.com/index.php?kat=44&sub=762
The Google Translator can't cope with this page so here is the etymology of the names:
Zyngiel - from the German name Zingel, from the German word Zingel meaning ‘defensive wall’ or High Middle German zungel, züngel meaning ‘tongue’.
Zyngielewicz - the same as above
Zyngielewski - the same as above
Another possibility is quite different Żygielewicz (the first letter is a Z with a dot on top) but still, Zingielewicz is a plausible misspelling. See: http://polishorigins.com/databases/index?s=%C5%BCygielewicz
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:19 pm
Post subject:
Thank you Daniel on the information about St. John Cantius. I was able to pull the marriage record years ago and have had it. His last name was spelled Zengielewicz. The name of the birthplace was always a mystery, it was listed as Zabudowice Kingdom of Poland Dyec Grodzisk. It also stated he was baptized there in October of 1889. I just received a copy of his Declaration of Intent from Chicago 1918. He spelled his last name Zengelewicz (his signature is also very clear and spelled Zengelewicz) and states he was born on Sept 27, 1885. It also states he was born in Zawodowic Poland Russia and he arrived in NY, New York from Antwerp Belgium on Nov 28, 1907. This date is consistent with other information and I was able to find the ship's manifest where his name was spelled Dzingelewicz. Is it possible he was baptized 4 years after his birth? I do realize that most birth years are inconsistent but just a thought.
Dear Slawomir, thank you for for all of the background information on Arczisewski and Zingelewicz. The Zingelewicz surname has always been a mystery and this is so wonderful to know more about the surname. Regarding Magdalena, I had the PA state archivist look for her husband's Declaration of Intent (Jan Kloszewski) and he found nothing. He gave me some more options to search. I am hoping to find his Declaration for more clues about Magdalena. I have nothing on her prior to her marriage in 1910. It was a state marriage license and there is no information about her city of birth or her parent's names.
My mother the youngest and only living child of Magdalena and Jan, always tells the story of her mother's trip over here. She was 17, traveled alone and was sponsored by a Dr. Mozdy in the town of Erie, PA where she and the family lived all their lives. She tells me that they gave the passengers bananas but none of them knew what to do with the banana so they tossed them overboard. 
With this new information, I have a lot to go on and to keep searching. Thank you both for your help, you can't imagine how you've helped me find out where my family came from and how appreciative I am. I can't wait until my children are old enough so that I can share their proud Polish heritage with them.
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Cheri Vanden BergPO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 16 Oct 2011
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:23 pm
Post subject:
| MichelleAZ wrote: | Hi again Cheri and Hussar,
I am still working on my grandmother Magdalena, nothing yet but I have an archivist working on finding her husband's naturalization paperwork. the 1930 census states he had applied. Regarding wives and naturalization, don't know if you know this but up until 1922, wives automatically became citizens when their husband's did. So most likely she did not apply. Until the archivist in Harrisburg, PA gets back to me with some paperwork, I'm just going to keep trying every combination whether or not it makes sense. 
Hussar, my maiden name was Zingelewicz and even though I came from a city with lots of Polish families, it was still mangled every which way possible.  |
Michelle,
I agree that the main key into finding the spelling of Magdalena's surname lies in how it was pronounced. I don't know enough about the Polish language, but I found something interesting in the book Going Home by Jonathan D. Shea. Mr. Shea explains how polish letter combinations may sound to us (as Daniel and Slowomir have kindly told you), and he also mentions that we have to consider regional dialects. Imagine a surname spoken by someone with a strong Southern accent, and then by someone with a strong Boston accent, and how different those names would look if they were written down phonetically. He writes, " The sounds in Polish dialects can cause alternate spellings of names." He gives a number of different examples, but one example made me curious concerning Magdalena's surname. He said there is a dialect phenomenon in which the first letter of the surname gets dropped, and that happens most frequently with the letter H, or an H can be added to a surname that began with a vowel. He gave the example of finding the name Haraszkiewicz as Araszkiewicz, Harasimowicz, Arasimowicz, etc.
Of course I do not know if that dialect phenomenon would have occured in the area that Magdalena is from. I did try all your different spellings with an H added to them, and came up empty at Ellis Island. I had hoped it would be that simple. Of course it rarely is, but I wanted you to be aware of that phenomenon. It might not be that her name was that mangled on a manifest. It could just be that the indexer could not make out the handwriting, and they mangled in in the index, as my grandmother's surname Lenart was INDEXED as Seuard.
Yes, I did know that my grandmother would have become a citizen when my grandfather did, and wouldn't have had to apply on her own, and wouldn't have been able to apply on her own when they were married in 1917. Also around that time, if an American woman citizen married someone that wasn't a citizen, she would no longer be an American citizen! I had just wondered if she would have applied later. I doubt it if she was already considered a citizen. What I hadn't known until recently was that a wife's maiden name and place of birth should be on her husband's naturalization records.
Unfortunately, I should also mention that just the other day, on a different Polish message board, someone mentioned that the correct village is not always written on the naturalization papers. Sometimes they wrote the larger town that was nearby. I still haven't sent for my grandfather's naturalization papers, but if they let him just say POLAND, I'm sure that's all it would say. Poland (and maybe Galicy) is all it says on every other document that I've ever gotten for my grandparents. I now know where they are both from, so that isn't a problem, but I think it is a good idea to get as much documentation as you can, because you never know what you might learn from it.
I think you might be very close to learning more. Let us know what you find.
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