dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:01 am
Post subject: Re: Kiselie/Kiseli, Poland
Hi Tim,
The reason one document says Russia and the other Poland is explained by the dates of the two docs. The passenger list is from 1913 and the citizenship papers are from 1928. During the late 18th Century Poland had been partitioned between Prussia, Russia and Austria and did not exist as a political entity from then until after WWI. Paweł/Paul lived in the territory which in 1913 had been controlled by Russia. However, after WWI Poland had once again been restored as an independent political entity known as the (Second) Republic of Poland. In 1928 the village was within the boundaries of the Republic of Poland.
I hope that this answers your question.
Wishing you successful research,
Dave
|
|
mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 960
Back to top |
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:31 pm
Post subject:
Hi Tim,
Locating this village is a difficult challenge. The village name was likely spelled incorrectly in the documents. Also, his surname is spelled differently in each document. The same for his wife, Ann. So the challenges are multiple. You need the correct Polish or Russian spelling of his surname and the village.
The best chance of finding it is to locate their church marriage record. Typically, our ancestors married in their local ethnic church (Polish Catholic or possibly Russian Orthodox in your case). The priest would be familiar with their language and the geographic regions, so chances are he would record the correct spellings of surnames and villages. Do you know when and where they married?
Also, I found some additional clues that will help locate his origins:
1. Attached is the 1920 census. Again, the surname is spelled incorrectly, but this is him, Annie, and son Nicolas. Note the scribe first wrote Grodno as place of birth then Russia. This is important clue.
2. Also in NJ, I think found his 1917 WWI draft card attached. This also indicates Grodno but I can’t quite make out the first word. “Solum, Solusu, Sohm”????
3. The 1930 census confirms some details: son Nicolas and daughter Mary both born in NJ. Estimated marriage year is 1917. Age of bride at marriage was 17 years. Her age at census was 30. So: 1930 - 30 = 1900 + 17 = 1917. I chose her to calculate because she was most likely the one giving the information to the census taker. Ann is shown as coming from Austria Poland and speaking Ukrainian. That tells me she likely came from a village in the Ukraine
4. Hamburg passenger list gives another variation of the village as Kueli (Kiselie, Kiseli).
5. The death certificate for his son in 1954 indicates his burial ceremony was conducted at a Russian Orthodox Church.
Together, this points to Paul coming from an area called Grodno Region in current Belarus (?). That aligns with the Russian and then Polish assignments on other documents. Here is some information on Grodno Region:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodno_Region
So, to further refine the search, I suggest you work to find their marriage record from the church. Again, do you know where they were married? Some possibilities would be New Jersey (because their first 2 children were born there). Another, more remote possibility is this New York marriage index I found in ancestry.com:
Name: Paul Weremedik
Gender: Male
Marriage License Date: 8 Aug 1916
Marriage License Place: Manhattan, New York City, New York, USA
Spouse:
Anna Wojcicky
License Number: 21890
Interested to hear your thoughts on this and discussion from others in the forum.
Best,
Cynthia
Sent from my iPad
Description: |
|
Filesize: |
1.64 MB |
Viewed: |
0 Time(s) |
|
Description: |
|
Filesize: |
472.47 KB |
Viewed: |
0 Time(s) |
|
Description: |
|
Filesize: |
1.56 MB |
Viewed: |
0 Time(s) |
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:51 pm
Post subject:
Cynthia, Thanks for the info. I am helping a friend with his family tree, so I will see what info I can get from him. Also, with my background knowledge in the Russian and Ukrainian language, I know their last name in Russian. My friend felt that he had some Belarussian ethnicity but wasn't sure. Grodno "state" does have 3 villages in different areas Slonim(similar to Solum???) The WWI registration card was a new find.
|
|
dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:15 pm
Post subject:
[quote="mcdonald0517"]Hi Tim,
Locating this village is a difficult challenge. The village name was likely spelled incorrectly in the documents. Also, his surname is spelled differently in each document. The same for his wife, Ann. So the challenges are multiple. You need the correct Polish or Russian spelling of his surname and the village.
The best chance of finding it is to locate their church marriage record. Typically, our ancestors married in their local ethnic church (Polish Catholic or possibly Russian Orthodox in your case). The priest would be familiar with their language and the geographic regions, so chances are he would record the correct spellings of surnames and villages. Do you know when and where they married?
Also, I found some additional clues that will help locate his origins:
1. Attached is the 1920 census. Again, the surname is spelled incorrectly, but this is him, Annie, and son Nicolas. Note the scribe first wrote Grodno as place of birth then Russia. This is important clue.
2. Also in NJ, I think found his 1917 WWI draft card attached. This also indicates Grodno but I can’t quite make out the first word. “Solum, Solusu, Sohm”????
3. The 1930 census confirms some details: son Nicolas and daughter Mary both born in NJ. Estimated marriage year is 1917. Age of bride at marriage was 17 years. Her age at census was 30. So: 1930 - 30 = 1900 + 17 = 1917. I chose her to calculate because she was most likely the one giving the information to the census taker. Ann is shown as coming from Austria Poland and speaking Ukrainian. That tells me she likely came from a village in the Ukraine
4. Hamburg passenger list gives another variation of the village as Kueli (Kiselie, Kiseli).
5. The death certificate for his son in 1954 indicates his burial ceremony was conducted at a Russian Orthodox Church.
Together, this points to Paul coming from an area called Grodno Region in current Belarus (?). That aligns with the Russian and then Polish assignments on other documents. Here is some information on Grodno Region:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodno_Region
So, to further refine the search, I suggest you work to find their marriage record from the church. Again, do you know where they were married? Some possibilities would be New Jersey (because their first 2 children were born there). Another, more remote possibility is this New York marriage index I found in ancestry.com:
Name: Paul Weremedik
Gender: Male
Marriage License Date: 8 Aug 1916
Marriage License Place: Manhattan, New York City, New York, USA
Spouse:
Anna Wojcicky
License Number: 21890
Interested to hear your thoughts on this and discussion from others in the forum.
Best,
Cynthia
Hi Cynthia & Tim,
Locating the village will not be easy. In the post WWI Republic of Poland Grodno was both a town and a powiat within what then was województwo białostockie (cf. attached map). In contemporary Europe the town and the powiat is located in Belarus near the border with Poland and with Lithuania. Probably the best option would be the church marriage record, as you wrote. Good old Google shows the Cathedral of St. Nicholas as the only Russian Orthodox church in Manhattan. Here is a link to the website: https://mospatusa.com/stnicholascathedral As far as I was able to learn Orthodox Christians from Belarus belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church in the USA. Family Search has an indexed extract for Paul & Anna’s marriage. It appears that the wedding license was obtained on 8 Aug. 1916, as you posted, and the wedding took place in Manhattan on 13 Aug. 1916. Family Search lists Paul’s parents but the person doing the indexing was not able to read the names of Anna’s parents. Here is the link: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24QF-FG2
As Forrest Gump was wont to say: “And that’s all I have to say about that.”
Good luck with the search.
Dave
Description: |
|
Filesize: |
1.58 MB |
Viewed: |
0 Time(s) |
|
|
|
mcdonald0517PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 960
Back to top |
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:34 pm
Post subject:
To add to what Dave found,
you can view the original Manhattan New York marriage certificate by going to a Family Research center or library affiliate near you. The film # is 1614518 and the digital image # is 7589693. It is marriage certificate # 19508. Here is the link, but again the images are locked for that line item and must be viewed from a research center or library affiliate near you.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/399474?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Cynthia
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:38 pm
Post subject:
Many thanks, folks. I appreciate your time! I will see what my friend says, if he wants to search more thank you
|
|
marcelproustPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Replies: 4188
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:50 am
Post subject:
In Grodno area there was a village Kisieli located here: https://goo.gl/maps/i7jeN2nJaNqqHhcN6
Maybe this is the village, you are looking for
_________________ My translations are voluntary, but they take a lot of time and effort, so whenever you want to send money it will be a very nice "Thank you" gift to me.
THANK YOU
PAYPAL: [email protected]
|
|
marierpk
Joined: 28 May 2020
Replies: 39
Location: Pataskala OH USABack to top |
|
|
|