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starshadow
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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 3:49 pm      Post subject:
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Thanks Piotr! This is all very fascinating. It really seems to match up with the story. Especially about the stonemasons from Trento Italy. And it could help explain a lot of things. I'm also wondering if those stonemasons may have been contracted to build anything else in Krosno. For example churches or other buildings.
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Piotr Zelny
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Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:30 pm      Post subject:
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Honestly speaking, I have no idea about any other construction sites in the town of Krosno and its vicinity where the Italian stonemasons might have been employed. The life can write every scenario. However, there is only one fact, they were contracted to build the narrow-gauge railroads in the Carpathians because they were experienced in building such constructions in let’s say similar mountainous landscape. According to me, we may presume that they might have participated in construction works of another big and important for the whole region investments dated back to the 2nd have of the 19th c. which I’ve already mentioned. But that is all. I can’t state anything more, without sources it’d be over interpretation.

There are several old churches in Krosno, those the biggest had been built long before the 19th c. There are many buildings from the 2nd have of the 19th c. but anyone whose construction would indicate that it needed bringing stonemasons workers from the other end of the Austrian Empire.

The fact that you’ve discovered such revelation about your Polish family branch is really great success. This is very personal story and I guess, it might have been known just to closest family members. I’m waiting for my DNA test, will see what kind of revelation are there, haha.

Apropos the Queen Bona Sforza, I feel some kind of personal connection with her and profound gratitude to her as she had built around 500 years ago the place where I can work nowadays. Smile



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Piotr Zelny
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Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:34 pm      Post subject:
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Beautiful in every season


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Sophia
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Post Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:20 am      Post subject:
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Hi Starshadow and Piotr,
I have been enjoying reading this conversation, very much! Now, I wish to add one more Polish - Italian connection, and that is the Polish national anthem, "Jeszcze Polska nie zginela." It mentions Italy, (in the chorus, no less!) so if one were to sing all of its verses, one would hear the name of Italy many times.
I do not know the words to very many countries' national anthems, but I think you would have to search through quite a lot of them before you find any other country whose anthem mentions another country in its lyrics.
All the best to you both,
Sophia
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Piotr Zelny
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Post Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:44 pm      Post subject:
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Hi,

Sophia, you are right. I didn't realize it before, somehow. I wonder if Italians know about it, that we sing about Italy. I wonder if anyone is singing about us.

Starshadow, I like this legend about Queen Bona staying in Zręcin in 1526 which you have provided in previous posts. I do not know any other ruler veiled in so many legends, in our region. But I have not heard this one. Our region is the historic area of co-called Sanok Land, Krosno and Zręcin were also part of it. Queen Bona received the county of Sanok and many other counties, towns, villages and castles as her royal endowment. She managed and derived income from these areas to maintain her court, table and wardrobe etc. Therefore, in her Sanok estates (in the capital which was the town of Sanok), she founded a royal castle. However, she probably had never been here. I'm afraid that she had never been to Zręcin either. There are historians who determine the so-called itineraries of particular kings, queens and their courts etc. There are no historical sources confirming Queen Bona's stay in our region. There are, however, many legends telling about her fantastic adventures in Sanok and the surrounding area.

Some legends are based on real events. More or less true mouth-to-mouth stories, today we would call them gossips. For hundreds of years they have been deformed like in the children’s game of Chinese telephone.

Bona's royal retinue did not have to hide and she did not have to fear for her life, no one would raise a hand against the queen. The ruler was an almost holy person. Queen Bona was adored in the Sanok (Zrecin, Krosno) region. Bona went down very well in the history of the Sanok region. Her coat of arms (the serpent devouring Saracen) is one of the three components of the coat of arms of the city of Sanok. In 1526, she did not go to Hungary, plunged in war and chaos. In addition, in 1526 she was pregnant for almost a whole year, gave birth in November, and a few months later she became pregnant again.

The legend of Queen Bona in Zręcin is probably a distorted gossip about Isabella Jagiellon the daughter of Bona Sforza and king Sigismund I the Old. Isabella Jagiellon was the queen of Hungary. In the result of the civil war in 1551 she had to give up the Hungarian crown. She returned to Poland to her mother and father. In 1555, she moved to Sanok and lived in the castle, in February 1556 she moved to Lviv. Officially, she was in Sanok and Lviv to look after the royal property, but in fact to be as close to the Hungarian border as possible to quickly enter the country at the call of the Hungarian knighthood. So it happened, in September 1556 she left Lviv and entered Hungary.

In 1555 and 56 the whole area was buzzing with rumors about the exiled Hungarian queen, daughter of Queen Bona, who lived in Sanok in the castle and was secretly getting ready to enter Hungary. It seems that one of the rumors from Zręcin has survived for 500 years and is still alive. During these 500 years of playing the Chinese telephone, Isabella Jagiellon was exchanged to better known Bona Sforza and the route of her secret march from Lviv to Hungary to the route from or through Zręcin to Hungary (local patriotism of small fatherlands-regions is very strong in Poland), the date was also changed by 40 years from 1556 to the best known date in the Hungarian history, that is 1526 (the catastrophic disaster at the battle of Mohacs and breakup of the state). Except that, the general situation is correct and the 500-year-old rumor reflects the contemporary atmosphere of fear and danger that surrounded the exiled Hungarian queen, daughter of Bona.

It seems to me that we have managed to solve a little historical puzzle. But this Zręcin story will survive it. Everyone in Sanok believes that Bona had been to or even lived in the castle, even local history teachers teach the kids in this way despite of many museum lessons being organized in the castle.

Piotr



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:27 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi Starshadow and Piotr,
I have been enjoying reading this conversation, very much! Now, I wish to add one more Polish - Italian connection, and that is the Polish national anthem, "Jeszcze Polska nie zginela." It mentions Italy, (in the chorus, no less!) so if one were to sing all of its verses, one would hear the name of Italy many times.
I do not know the words to very many countries' national anthems, but I think you would have to search through quite a lot of them before you find any other country whose anthem mentions another country in its lyrics.
All the best to you both,
Sophia


Hi Sophia, Piotr, & Starshadow,

Although the Anthem mentions Italy it is more an historical footnote than a paean in praise of the Italian nation. The Italy in the song is neither ancient nor modern Italy. It refers to the Kingdom of Italy set up by Napoleon. Italy was just the starting point of the march of Dąbrowski’s Legions as part of their dream of the restoration of a free and independent Poland. After the Third Partition of Poland Jan Henryk Dąbrowski and other Polish patriots in exile hitched their cause to Napoleon’s rising star—only to ultimately find their hopes dashed. The attachment to Napoleon was part of the “My enemy’s enemy is my friend view of international politics. The Kingdom of Italy, much like The Duchy of Warsaw, was a French client state which came to an end after the fall of Napoleon. From that time until the unification of Italy with the capture of Rome in 1870 the Italian peninsula was composed of city republics and small independent states (like the Papal States). The Italy of the Polish National Anthem was Napoleon’s Kingdom of Italy, which only comprised some of northern modern Italy, not the Italy of the late 19th Century…No Tuscan or Sicilian style meals for the guys as they began their march...The Anthem, often known as Dąbrowski’s Mazurka, was composed as a marching song for his legions. It became the Polish National Anthem in 1927. During the first years of newly independent Poland there were several other strong contenders for the choice of a national anthem. Other strong contenders were the the Bogurodzica, allegedly composed during the 14th Century, the religious hymn, Boże coś Polskę, and the Warszawianka, a spin-off of France’s Marseillaise.

Like other marching songs (e.g. the Civil War era Mine Eyes Have seen… and the WWI song Over There the songs were a combo of beat and lyrics intended to, as was said during the Civil War era, “Get the men’s blood up.”

Besides the mention of Italy the Anthem also mentions Sweden in the 3rd stanza: “Jak Czarniecki do Poznania
Po szwedzkim zaborze…”
The 2nd stanza makes clear that it is Napoleon’s Italy from which the Legions march putting into practice lessons learned from Napoleon: Dal nam przyklad Bonaparte, Jak zwyciezac mamy

Personally, I think it was a good choice for an anthem. If it had been on American Bandstand, the contestants would have said: “I like it. It has a good beat...easy to dance to…” This comes as no surprise since the Mazurka is a lively dance tune.

Dave
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Piotr Zelny
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Post Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 1:39 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Starshadow,

I've got another information about Italian workers in the region of Krosno. It seems that they had been frequently employed on the huge construction sites, especially of the communication and transportation infrastructure. They worked on the construction site of the co-called Second Imperial Road from Żywiec through Sucha, Jordanów, Limanowa, Nowy Sącz, Jasło, Krosno Sanok to Lviv. The road was build in the years 1812 - 23 (1830). There is a manuscript about the course of construction 'Ubersicht der II Galiżischen Haupt Commerzial oder Karpaten Strasse' written by Austrian clerk from Nowy Sącz in 1823. The manuscript is kept in the library of Krakow Polytechnic.

It seems that the Italian construction workers were not so strange view in the Galician province. Hope, it may help in the future.

Best regards
Piotr



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starshadow
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Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:05 am      Post subject:
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Thank you Piotr, Sophia, and Dave. This has all been very enlightening. I appreciate it very much.

By the way, I believe the Italian National anthem likewise mentions Poland. What a coincidence.
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:32 am      Post subject:
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Piotr Zelny wrote:
Hi Starshadow,

I've got another information about Italian workers in the region of Krosno. It seems that they had been frequently employed on the huge construction sites, especially of the communication and transportation infrastructure. They worked on the construction site of the co-called Second Imperial Road from Żywiec through Sucha, Jordanów, Limanowa, Nowy Sącz, Jasło, Krosno Sanok to Lviv. The road was build in the years 1812 - 23 (1830). There is a manuscript about the course of construction 'Ubersicht der II Galiżischen Haupt Commerzial oder Karpaten Strasse' written by Austrian clerk from Nowy Sącz in 1823. The manuscript is kept in the library of Krakow Polytechnic.

It seems that the Italian construction workers were not so strange view in the Galician province. Hope, it may help in the future.

Best regards
Piotr


Thank you for this research Piotr. It's so amazing to learn about Galicia in that time. These clues are helping me get closer to solving this puzzle.

I have been busy comparing the ancestral trees of some of my Italian DNA matches (those who have trees), and am finding similarities between them. Hopefully they will point in the direction of finding my missing 3rd-great-grandfather. I am suspecting his surname may have been "Marcon". But that might change.
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starshadow
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Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:52 am      Post subject:
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I asked my cousin in Poland to send me some pictures of Krosno, to see some of the architecture. I was hoping maybe she might capture some of the railroad pillars and other constructs we've been discussing.


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starshadow
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:35 am      Post subject:
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I don't know why I didn't see this before, but I just read this on Wikipedia.

"It was not until the middle of the 19th century, the period of the Galician autonomy from 1867 to the outbreak of the World War I, that Krosno started to rise from the decline. The birth of Polish oil industry undoubtedly contributed to the notable and rapid increase of importance of the town. The first oil company started by Ignacy Łukasiewicz, Tytus Trzecielski and Karol Klobassa in 1856 and the refinery they erected in Chorkówka caused gradual inflow of foreign capital."

"Krosno is located in an oil bearing region. Surface seepage of oil was locally used (unrefined) in lamps as early as the 16th century. In the 19th century Ignacy Łukasiewicz a local pharmacist began exploiting the deposits from hand-dug wells, years before the drilling at Titusville, Pennsylvania which is usually said to be the beginning of modern petroleum development."

I think the date of the oil well is key, 1856.

Krosno must have been quite a focus of innovation and experimentation in the mid 19th century, and probably attracted industrialists from all over Europe.
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