Gabriel Brandt de Toledo
Joined: 24 Mar 2022
Replies: 3
Location: BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:18 pm
Post subject: "Grochole" in Kraków or Sandomierz Voivodeships
Hello!
I'm Gabriel Brandt de Toledo and my Polish ancestry comes from Mazowieckie, Mazury, Kaszuby, and Małopolska. Of those four, my Małopolskie ancestry comes entirely from my third great-grandmother Anna Julianna Zielińska, who was born in Warszawa in 1830: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=1&zs=0158d&sy=1830&kt=1&plik=0660-0663.jpg#zoom=2.25&x=385&y=1698
Her parents Bernard Zieliński and Magdalena Skalska got married 3 years before in the same city: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=1&zs=0162d&sy=1827a&kt=2&plik=111-114.jpg#zoom=2.25&x=0&y=0
As it can be seen on the record above, Bernard was the son of Andrzej Zieliński and Katarzyna N.N. and was born in a place called "Grochole" in the Kraków Voivodeship, whereas Magdalena was the daughter of Franciszek Skalski and Petronela Głowczyńska and was from Koziegłowy just south of Częstochowa, in the same voivodeship. While I've found her family's records there, I can't figure out where Bernard's Grochole actually is.
Turning to their akta znania ( https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSCZ-B7JH-4 ), Bernard brought a witness called Ignacy Markowski, who was also from Grochole and who had known him since their childhood. Ignacy claimed Grochole was actually in the Sandomierz Voivodeship, which made me think it was one of the two Grocholice villages there.
After Anna Julianna's birth, the first record I have of the couple is their daughter Marianna's birth in Gostkowo near Ciechanów in 1835 ( https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=13&zs=0136d&sy=1835&kt=1&plik=003-006.jpg#zoom=1.75&x=0&y=0 ), which leads me to speculate that they either fled Warszawa during the November Uprising or left shortly thereafter. They then kept going north until Bernard died in Głużek in 1849: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=13&zs=0655d&sy=1849&kt=3&plik=01-02.jpg#zoom=1.75&x=548&y=1486
Here, not only is Grochole repeated, but it is also claimed that Bernard's parents Andrzej and Katarzyna had lived in a "Łowicz," which makes it even harder to identify where they were from, as there doesn't seem to be a Grochole that was either in the Kraków or Sandomierz voivodeships and that was simultaneously close to a Łowicz. The fact that Bernard didn't know his mother's maiden name also doesn't help. In summary, if anybody could help me untangle where Bernard and his family were from, I'd be very grateful.
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1028
Back to top |
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:09 pm
Post subject: Re: "Grochole" in Kraków or Sandomierz Voivodeship
| Gabriel Brandt de Toledo wrote: | Hello!
I'm Gabriel Brandt de Toledo and my Polish ancestry comes from Mazowieckie, Mazury, Kaszuby, and Małopolska. Of those four, my Małopolskie ancestry comes entirely from my third great-grandmother Anna Julianna Zielińska, who was born in Warszawa in 1830: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=1&zs=0158d&sy=1830&kt=1&plik=0660-0663.jpg#zoom=2.25&x=385&y=1698
Her parents Bernard Zieliński and Magdalena Skalska got married 3 years before in the same city: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=1&zs=0162d&sy=1827a&kt=2&plik=111-114.jpg#zoom=2.25&x=0&y=0
As it can be seen on the record above, Bernard was the son of Andrzej Zieliński and Katarzyna N.N. and was born in a place called "Grochole" in the Kraków Voivodeship, whereas Magdalena was the daughter of Franciszek Skalski and Petronela Głowczyńska and was from Koziegłowy just south of Częstochowa, in the same voivodeship. While I've found her family's records there, I can't figure out where Bernard's Grochole actually is.
Turning to their akta znania ( https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSCZ-B7JH-4 ), Bernard brought a witness called Ignacy Markowski, who was also from Grochole and who had known him since their childhood. Ignacy claimed Grochole was actually in the Sandomierz Voivodeship, which made me think it was one of the two Grocholice villages there.
After Anna Julianna's birth, the first record I have of the couple is their daughter Marianna's birth in Gostkowo near Ciechanów in 1835 ( https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=13&zs=0136d&sy=1835&kt=1&plik=003-006.jpg#zoom=1.75&x=0&y=0 ), which leads me to speculate that they either fled Warszawa during the November Uprising or left shortly thereafter. They then kept going north until Bernard died in Głużek in 1849: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=13&zs=0655d&sy=1849&kt=3&plik=01-02.jpg#zoom=1.75&x=548&y=1486
Here, not only is Grochole repeated, but it is also claimed that Bernard's parents Andrzej and Katarzyna had lived in a "Łowicz," which makes it even harder to identify where they were from, as there doesn't seem to be a Grochole that was either in the Kraków or Sandomierz voivodeships and that was simultaneously close to a Łowicz. The fact that Bernard didn't know his mother's maiden name also doesn't help. In summary, if anybody could help me untangle where Bernard and his family were from, I'd be very grateful. |
Hello Gabriel,
You are asking a very interesting question. Thank you for including all of the links to the documents where you saw the place name Grochole. The handwriting is clear enough, and the spelling of Grochole is consistent through these documents (with one Grochalu).
It may be an important clue that Bernard said Grochole was in Kraków voivodeship whereas the witness Ignacy Markowski said Grochole was in Sandomierz voivodeship. As borders changed, Grochole may have been in one voivodeship at the time of Bernard’s birth, and in another voivodeship at the time of his marriage. It is possible that Grochole was such a small place, that it later on merged with another town and that is why it is so difficult to find.
I looked at various sources, including gazetteers and historical maps. However, I was only able to find one reference to Grochole.
There is a book (written in French) which lists Grochole as part of Powiat Radomski (Radom County).
The book is Geographie Universelle traduite de l’Allemand, Volume 2, Part 2, by Anton Friedrich Bűsching, published in 1786.
To see the page of interest, follow this link and go to page 186:
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/G%C3%A9ographie_universelle_de_Busching_Trad/bS2IXxTpTY8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Grochole%22&pg=RA1-PA186&printsec=frontcover
In describing places within Powiat Radomski, the book shows:
In point 1, Radomsko.
In point 2, several “petites villes” (little towns), including Grochole, “Dzioloszyn” which could be Działoszyn, and “Nowo Krzepice” which could be today’s Krzepice.
In point 3, “Szczercowtz / Schtscherkow” could be Szczerców and “Klobuczko or Kloboutschko” could be Kłobuck.
In point 4, Konary.
All of these places are present on current maps, just to the north of Czestochowa.
By looking at this area, you may develop an idea of where Grochole was. The more southern Grocholice of the two Grocholice's that you found might be the right place.
I wish you good luck in your search.
Sophia
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Gabriel Brandt de Toledo
Joined: 24 Mar 2022
Replies: 3
Location: BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: "Grochole" in Kraków or Sandomierz Voivodeship
| Sophia wrote: | | Gabriel Brandt de Toledo wrote: | Hello!
I'm Gabriel Brandt de Toledo and my Polish ancestry comes from Mazowieckie, Mazury, Kaszuby, and Małopolska. Of those four, my Małopolskie ancestry comes entirely from my third great-grandmother Anna Julianna Zielińska, who was born in Warszawa in 1830: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=1&zs=0158d&sy=1830&kt=1&plik=0660-0663.jpg#zoom=2.25&x=385&y=1698
Her parents Bernard Zieliński and Magdalena Skalska got married 3 years before in the same city: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=1&zs=0162d&sy=1827a&kt=2&plik=111-114.jpg#zoom=2.25&x=0&y=0
As it can be seen on the record above, Bernard was the son of Andrzej Zieliński and Katarzyna N.N. and was born in a place called "Grochole" in the Kraków Voivodeship, whereas Magdalena was the daughter of Franciszek Skalski and Petronela Głowczyńska and was from Koziegłowy just south of Częstochowa, in the same voivodeship. While I've found her family's records there, I can't figure out where Bernard's Grochole actually is.
Turning to their akta znania ( https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSCZ-B7JH-4 ), Bernard brought a witness called Ignacy Markowski, who was also from Grochole and who had known him since their childhood. Ignacy claimed Grochole was actually in the Sandomierz Voivodeship, which made me think it was one of the two Grocholice villages there.
After Anna Julianna's birth, the first record I have of the couple is their daughter Marianna's birth in Gostkowo near Ciechanów in 1835 ( https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=13&zs=0136d&sy=1835&kt=1&plik=003-006.jpg#zoom=1.75&x=0&y=0 ), which leads me to speculate that they either fled Warszawa during the November Uprising or left shortly thereafter. They then kept going north until Bernard died in Głużek in 1849: https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.php?ar=13&zs=0655d&sy=1849&kt=3&plik=01-02.jpg#zoom=1.75&x=548&y=1486
Here, not only is Grochole repeated, but it is also claimed that Bernard's parents Andrzej and Katarzyna had lived in a "Łowicz," which makes it even harder to identify where they were from, as there doesn't seem to be a Grochole that was either in the Kraków or Sandomierz voivodeships and that was simultaneously close to a Łowicz. The fact that Bernard didn't know his mother's maiden name also doesn't help. In summary, if anybody could help me untangle where Bernard and his family were from, I'd be very grateful. |
Hello Gabriel,
You are asking a very interesting question. Thank you for including all of the links to the documents where you saw the place name Grochole. The handwriting is clear enough, and the spelling of Grochole is consistent through these documents (with one Grochalu).
It may be an important clue that Bernard said Grochole was in Kraków voivodeship whereas the witness Ignacy Markowski said Grochole was in Sandomierz voivodeship. As borders changed, Grochole may have been in one voivodeship at the time of Bernard’s birth, and in another voivodeship at the time of his marriage. It is possible that Grochole was such a small place, that it later on merged with another town and that is why it is so difficult to find.
I looked at various sources, including gazetteers and historical maps. However, I was only able to find one reference to Grochole.
There is a book (written in French) which lists Grochole as part of Powiat Radomski (Radom County).
The book is Geographie Universelle traduite de l’Allemand, Volume 2, Part 2, by Anton Friedrich Bűsching, published in 1786.
To see the page of interest, follow this link and go to page 186:
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/G%C3%A9ographie_universelle_de_Busching_Trad/bS2IXxTpTY8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Grochole%22&pg=RA1-PA186&printsec=frontcover
In describing places within Powiat Radomski, the book shows:
In point 1, Radomsko.
In point 2, several “petites villes” (little towns), including Grochole, “Dzioloszyn” which could be Działoszyn, and “Nowo Krzepice” which could be today’s Krzepice.
In point 3, “Szczercowtz / Schtscherkow” could be Szczerców and “Klobuczko or Kloboutschko” could be Kłobuck.
In point 4, Konary.
All of these places are present on current maps, just to the north of Czestochowa.
By looking at this area, you may develop an idea of where Grochole was. The more southern Grocholice of the two Grocholice's that you found might be the right place.
I wish you good luck in your search.
Sophia |
Hello Sophia,
Thank you very much for your reply! I hadn't seen that source before.
With the information you gave me, I went to check what voivodeship Radomsko was a part of at the time of Bernard and Magdalena's marriage. It turns out it belonged neither to Kraków nor to Sandomierz, but to Kalisz: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Congress_Poland_1831.jpg
However, the fact that the powiat borders both voivodeships coupled with the reference to Łowicz on Bernard's death record (there's a Łowicz just east of Radomsko, closer to the border) makes me think it's not unreasonable that Bernard and Ignacy just mistakenly thought Grochole was in those voivodeships.
Looking for a map that showed more villages, I found this 1827 one by Juliusz Colberg: http://maps.mapywig.org/m/Polish_maps/series/535K_Colberg_atlas_wojewodztw/mappa_krolestwa_polskiego-006_woj_kaliskie_south_PBC_roteted.jpg
Grocholice is just outside the bounds of the Radomsko powiat, which is already a good sign, but it made me wonder whether it had once truly been part of it. It turns out that, by the time Büsching wrote the book you linked me, Radomsko was actually in the Sieradz Voivodeship: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Administrative_division_of_the_Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_in_1789.PNG
It's interesting to see how the Kraków Voivodeship went up to the north of Częstochowa at this point compared to how it ended just to the south of it by 1827, which corroborates the theory that Bernard was thinking about old borders. Once again looking for a more detailed map, I found this 1772 one by Rizzi Zannoni: http://maps.mapywig.org/m/Polish_maps/series/690K_Zannoni_Carte_de_la_Pologne/Zanonni_Carte_De_La_Pologne_sbc37295_Nr_13_Szląsko_Pruskie_Woiewodztwa_Kaliskie_Łenczyckie_y_Sieradzkie.jpg
Zooming in, I was shocked to see that Grocholice is actually spelled Grochole on this map! Not only that, but all the villages Büsching mentions are also visible on this map. So the Grochole he refers to is definitely the Grocholice that is now part of Bełchatów.
Unfortunately, I have yet to find some evidence of an Andrzej and Katarzyna Zieliński couple that had a son named Bernard there, or that lived in the Łowicz to the east of Radomsko, but I do believe this is the right place. This side of the family is truly the most puzzling: Bernard and Magdalena left their birthplaces and headed to Warszawa seemingly alone, got married and falsely claimed they were orphans (Magdalena's mother Petronela Tekla would die almost 20 years later, in 1846: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GPW9-V8H?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=GDJN-4Z1&i=27 ), had Anna Julianna there, and then fled/left during/after the November Uprising. So thank you once again for helping me make a little more sense of it!
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1028
Back to top |
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:37 am
Post subject: Re: "Grochole" in Kraków or Sandomierz Voivodeship
| Gabriel Brandt de Toledo wrote: |
Hello Sophia,
Thank you very much for your reply! I hadn't seen that source before.
With the information you gave me, I went to check what voivodeship Radomsko was a part of at the time of Bernard and Magdalena's marriage. It turns out it belonged neither to Kraków nor to Sandomierz, but to Kalisz: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Congress_Poland_1831.jpg
However, the fact that the powiat borders both voivodeships coupled with the reference to Łowicz on Bernard's death record (there's a Łowicz just east of Radomsko, closer to the border) makes me think it's not unreasonable that Bernard and Ignacy just mistakenly thought Grochole was in those voivodeships.
Looking for a map that showed more villages, I found this 1827 one by Juliusz Colberg: http://maps.mapywig.org/m/Polish_maps/series/535K_Colberg_atlas_wojewodztw/mappa_krolestwa_polskiego-006_woj_kaliskie_south_PBC_roteted.jpg
Grocholice is just outside the bounds of the Radomsko powiat, which is already a good sign, but it made me wonder whether it had once truly been part of it. It turns out that, by the time Büsching wrote the book you linked me, Radomsko was actually in the Sieradz Voivodeship: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Administrative_division_of_the_Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_in_1789.PNG
It's interesting to see how the Kraków Voivodeship went up to the north of Częstochowa at this point compared to how it ended just to the south of it by 1827, which corroborates the theory that Bernard was thinking about old borders. Once again looking for a more detailed map, I found this 1772 one by Rizzi Zannoni: http://maps.mapywig.org/m/Polish_maps/series/690K_Zannoni_Carte_de_la_Pologne/Zanonni_Carte_De_La_Pologne_sbc37295_Nr_13_Szląsko_Pruskie_Woiewodztwa_Kaliskie_Łenczyckie_y_Sieradzkie.jpg
Zooming in, I was shocked to see that Grocholice is actually spelled Grochole on this map! Not only that, but all the villages Büsching mentions are also visible on this map. So the Grochole he refers to is definitely the Grocholice that is now part of Bełchatów.
Unfortunately, I have yet to find some evidence of an Andrzej and Katarzyna Zieliński couple that had a son named Bernard there, or that lived in the Łowicz to the east of Radomsko, but I do believe this is the right place. This side of the family is truly the most puzzling: Bernard and Magdalena left their birthplaces and headed to Warszawa seemingly alone, got married and falsely claimed they were orphans (Magdalena's mother Petronela Tekla would die almost 20 years later, in 1846: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GPW9-V8H?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=GDJN-4Z1&i=27 ), had Anna Julianna there, and then fled/left during/after the November Uprising. So thank you once again for helping me make a little more sense of it! |
Hi Gabriel,
I am very happy that I was able to help you.
You found several very valuable maps, which tell the story of Grochole / Grocholice over time. Most exciting is the Zannoni map, which shows the Grochole spelling. I am curious, if there is a series of Zannoni maps, perhaps one map of the series will show a key to the symbols that are used on this map. I am asking, because I see many towns have a symbol next to them which certainly indicates a church, but Grochole does not have that symbol. I cannot decipher the meaning of the symbol next to Grochole. Also, it makes me wonder whether the church that was in Grochole was not yet active when Bernard was born, so you may need to look at church records from some other town nearby. You may find it useful to also look for Ignacy Markowski, when you look at church records.
I will give you two additional links which I found very interesting. One is for the regional museum, in Bełchatów, which has a lot of history of this area:
http://www.muzeum.belchatow.pl/
The second one is for a blog about various historical events in Bełchatów, which includes an interesting article about how a railway station was originally planned for Grocholice:
https://pthbelchatow.wordpress.com/2017/04/25/kolej-warszawsko-wiedenska-stacja-grocholice/
I wish you good luck in your research,
Sophia
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Gabriel Brandt de Toledo
Joined: 24 Mar 2022
Replies: 3
Location: BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: "Grochole" in Kraków or Sandomierz Voivodeship
| Sophia wrote: | | Gabriel Brandt de Toledo wrote: |
Hello Sophia,
Thank you very much for your reply! I hadn't seen that source before.
With the information you gave me, I went to check what voivodeship Radomsko was a part of at the time of Bernard and Magdalena's marriage. It turns out it belonged neither to Kraków nor to Sandomierz, but to Kalisz: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Congress_Poland_1831.jpg
However, the fact that the powiat borders both voivodeships coupled with the reference to Łowicz on Bernard's death record (there's a Łowicz just east of Radomsko, closer to the border) makes me think it's not unreasonable that Bernard and Ignacy just mistakenly thought Grochole was in those voivodeships.
Looking for a map that showed more villages, I found this 1827 one by Juliusz Colberg: http://maps.mapywig.org/m/Polish_maps/series/535K_Colberg_atlas_wojewodztw/mappa_krolestwa_polskiego-006_woj_kaliskie_south_PBC_roteted.jpg
Grocholice is just outside the bounds of the Radomsko powiat, which is already a good sign, but it made me wonder whether it had once truly been part of it. It turns out that, by the time Büsching wrote the book you linked me, Radomsko was actually in the Sieradz Voivodeship: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Administrative_division_of_the_Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_in_1789.PNG
It's interesting to see how the Kraków Voivodeship went up to the north of Częstochowa at this point compared to how it ended just to the south of it by 1827, which corroborates the theory that Bernard was thinking about old borders. Once again looking for a more detailed map, I found this 1772 one by Rizzi Zannoni: http://maps.mapywig.org/m/Polish_maps/series/690K_Zannoni_Carte_de_la_Pologne/Zanonni_Carte_De_La_Pologne_sbc37295_Nr_13_Szląsko_Pruskie_Woiewodztwa_Kaliskie_Łenczyckie_y_Sieradzkie.jpg
Zooming in, I was shocked to see that Grocholice is actually spelled Grochole on this map! Not only that, but all the villages Büsching mentions are also visible on this map. So the Grochole he refers to is definitely the Grocholice that is now part of Bełchatów.
Unfortunately, I have yet to find some evidence of an Andrzej and Katarzyna Zieliński couple that had a son named Bernard there, or that lived in the Łowicz to the east of Radomsko, but I do believe this is the right place. This side of the family is truly the most puzzling: Bernard and Magdalena left their birthplaces and headed to Warszawa seemingly alone, got married and falsely claimed they were orphans (Magdalena's mother Petronela Tekla would die almost 20 years later, in 1846: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GPW9-V8H?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=GDJN-4Z1&i=27 ), had Anna Julianna there, and then fled/left during/after the November Uprising. So thank you once again for helping me make a little more sense of it! |
Hi Gabriel,
I am very happy that I was able to help you.
You found several very valuable maps, which tell the story of Grochole / Grocholice over time. Most exciting is the Zannoni map, which shows the Grochole spelling. I am curious, if there is a series of Zannoni maps, perhaps one map of the series will show a key to the symbols that are used on this map. I am asking, because I see many towns have a symbol next to them which certainly indicates a church, but Grochole does not have that symbol. I cannot decipher the meaning of the symbol next to Grochole. Also, it makes me wonder whether the church that was in Grochole was not yet active when Bernard was born, so you may need to look at church records from some other town nearby. You may find it useful to also look for Ignacy Markowski, when you look at church records.
I will give you two additional links which I found very interesting. One is for the regional museum, in Bełchatów, which has a lot of history of this area:
http://www.muzeum.belchatow.pl/
The second one is for a blog about various historical events in Bełchatów, which includes an interesting article about how a railway station was originally planned for Grocholice:
https://pthbelchatow.wordpress.com/2017/04/25/kolej-warszawsko-wiedenska-stacja-grocholice/
I wish you good luck in your research,
Sophia |
Hello Sophia,
Thank you for the additional sources. It's interesting how Grocholice seems to have been more important than Bełchatów in the past, which matches Bernard and Ignacy's description of "Grochole" as a city/town rather than a village. Its parish already existed when Bernard was born and its records are available on FamilySearch, but the handwriting and the number of records crammed in a single page makes it hard to understand what's going on.
For example, on this page alone, there seem to be many Zielińskis, but I couldn't find an Andrzej or a Bernard (and apparently 3 of them were named Mikołaj?): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSXK-Q9NM-8?i=657&cat=299028
There's a couple named Filip Antoni? and Katarzyna Graczak that seems relevant: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSXK-Q9LF-5?i=34&cat=299028
I was hoping I was misreading "Antony" and it was actually "Andreas," but that doesn't seem to be case. I'll see if I can find something more meaningful. Anyways, thank you again!
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