TrishPO Top Contributor
Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Replies: 299
Back to top |
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:13 pm
Post subject: Question about correct date on record
Hi,
Marcel was kind enough to transcribe records for me. However on the record, it has to different dates. Can someone explain why? What date do I use for the date of death?
It happened in Wąwolnica, on February 16th/March 1st, 1902, at 2 p.m.
Appeared: Jan Łuszczyński, 42 years old and Józef Kędzierski, 38 years old, townsmen, farmers living in Wąwolnica, and they declared that on February 13th/26th of the current year, at 6 a.m., died in Wąwolnica: Feliks Marceli Pisarski, who lived in Wąwolnica, 68 years old, a peasant, worker, who was born in the village of Kowala, son of the late spouses: Andrzej Pisarski and Fryderyka nee Kędryk [the original baptism document for Feliks indicated his mother as Fryderyka nee Mędrak], who left his widowed wife, Emilia Zofia nee Rybczyńska, a peasant living in Wąwolnica.
Thanks for the advice.
Trish
|
|
|
marcelproustPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Replies: 4208
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Question about correct date on record
| Trish wrote: | Hi,
Marcel was kind enough to transcribe records for me. However on the record, it has to different dates. Can someone explain why? What date do I use for the date of death?
It happened in Wąwolnica, on February 16th/March 1st, 1902, at 2 p.m.
Appeared: Jan Łuszczyński, 42 years old and Józef Kędzierski, 38 years old, townsmen, farmers living in Wąwolnica, and they declared that on February 13th/26th of the current year, at 6 a.m., died in Wąwolnica: Feliks Marceli Pisarski, who lived in Wąwolnica, 68 years old, a peasant, worker, who was born in the village of Kowala, son of the late spouses: Andrzej Pisarski and Fryderyka nee Kędryk [the original baptism document for Feliks indicated his mother as Fryderyka nee Mędrak], who left his widowed wife, Emilia Zofia nee Rybczyńska, a peasant living in Wąwolnica.
Thanks for the advice.
Trish |
As for double dates. Poland was at russian occupation at that time. That is why the document is written in russian language. This double dating refers to so called Old Style and New Style dates. There was a calendar reform in XVI century: Gregorian calendar replaced Julian calendar in romancatholic countries. This reform came into use in Russia in 1918. So as i wrote Poland was under russian occupation and the priests were obligated to put two dates: Julian and Gregorian calendar dates.
The first date is Julian (Old Style), the second Gregorian (New Style).
To calculate the New Style Date You had to add 12 days to the old Style Date in XIX Century.
You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates
_________________
My translations are voluntary, but they take a lot of time and effort, so whenever you want to send money it will be a very nice "Thank you" gift to me.
THANK YOU 
PAYPAL: [email protected]
|
|
|
TrishPO Top Contributor
Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Replies: 299
Back to top |
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Question about correct date on record
| marcelproust wrote: | | Trish wrote: | Hi,
Marcel was kind enough to transcribe records for me. However on the record, it has to different dates. Can someone explain why? What date do I use for the date of death?
It happened in Wąwolnica, on February 16th/March 1st, 1902, at 2 p.m.
Appeared: Jan Łuszczyński, 42 years old and Józef Kędzierski, 38 years old, townsmen, farmers living in Wąwolnica, and they declared that on February 13th/26th of the current year, at 6 a.m., died in Wąwolnica: Feliks Marceli Pisarski, who lived in Wąwolnica, 68 years old, a peasant, worker, who was born in the village of Kowala, son of the late spouses: Andrzej Pisarski and Fryderyka nee Kędryk [the original baptism document for Feliks indicated his mother as Fryderyka nee Mędrak], who left his widowed wife, Emilia Zofia nee Rybczyńska, a peasant living in Wąwolnica.
Thanks for the advice.
Trish |
As for double dates. Poland was at russian occupation at that time. That is why the document is written in russian language. This double dating refers to so called Old Style and New Style dates. There was a calendar reform in XVI century: Gregorian calendar replaced Julian calendar in romancatholic countries. This reform came into use in Russia in 1918. So as i wrote Poland was under russian occupation and the priests were obligated to put two dates: Julian and Gregorian calendar dates.
The first date is Julian (Old Style), the second Gregorian (New Style).
To calculate the New Style Date You had to add 12 days to the old Style Date in XIX Century.
You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates |
Hi Marcel,
Should I write both dates down in my family group sheet for that person?
Thank you for the translation, advice, and website. Very interesting reading.
Trish
|
|
|
marcelproustPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Replies: 4208
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Question about correct date on record
| Trish wrote: | | marcelproust wrote: | | Trish wrote: | Hi,
Marcel was kind enough to transcribe records for me. However on the record, it has to different dates. Can someone explain why? What date do I use for the date of death?
It happened in Wąwolnica, on February 16th/March 1st, 1902, at 2 p.m.
Appeared: Jan Łuszczyński, 42 years old and Józef Kędzierski, 38 years old, townsmen, farmers living in Wąwolnica, and they declared that on February 13th/26th of the current year, at 6 a.m., died in Wąwolnica: Feliks Marceli Pisarski, who lived in Wąwolnica, 68 years old, a peasant, worker, who was born in the village of Kowala, son of the late spouses: Andrzej Pisarski and Fryderyka nee Kędryk [the original baptism document for Feliks indicated his mother as Fryderyka nee Mędrak], who left his widowed wife, Emilia Zofia nee Rybczyńska, a peasant living in Wąwolnica.
Thanks for the advice.
Trish |
As for double dates. Poland was at russian occupation at that time. That is why the document is written in russian language. This double dating refers to so called Old Style and New Style dates. There was a calendar reform in XVI century: Gregorian calendar replaced Julian calendar in romancatholic countries. This reform came into use in Russia in 1918. So as i wrote Poland was under russian occupation and the priests were obligated to put two dates: Julian and Gregorian calendar dates.
The first date is Julian (Old Style), the second Gregorian (New Style).
To calculate the New Style Date You had to add 12 days to the old Style Date in XIX Century.
You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates |
Hi Marcel,
Should I write both dates down in my family group sheet for that person?
Thank you for the translation, advice, and website. Very interesting reading.
Trish |
It is up to You, but I think the date given as the second is more important.
_________________
My translations are voluntary, but they take a lot of time and effort, so whenever you want to send money it will be a very nice "Thank you" gift to me.
THANK YOU
PAYPAL: [email protected]
|
|
|
TrishPO Top Contributor
Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Replies: 299
Back to top |
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Question about correct date on record
| marcelproust wrote: | | Trish wrote: | | marcelproust wrote: | | Trish wrote: | Hi,
Marcel was kind enough to transcribe records for me. However on the record, it has to different dates. Can someone explain why? What date do I use for the date of death?
It happened in Wąwolnica, on February 16th/March 1st, 1902, at 2 p.m.
Appeared: Jan Łuszczyński, 42 years old and Józef Kędzierski, 38 years old, townsmen, farmers living in Wąwolnica, and they declared that on February 13th/26th of the current year, at 6 a.m., died in Wąwolnica: Feliks Marceli Pisarski, who lived in Wąwolnica, 68 years old, a peasant, worker, who was born in the village of Kowala, son of the late spouses: Andrzej Pisarski and Fryderyka nee Kędryk [the original baptism document for Feliks indicated his mother as Fryderyka nee Mędrak], who left his widowed wife, Emilia Zofia nee Rybczyńska, a peasant living in Wąwolnica.
Thanks for the advice.
Trish |
As for double dates. Poland was at russian occupation at that time. That is why the document is written in russian language. This double dating refers to so called Old Style and New Style dates. There was a calendar reform in XVI century: Gregorian calendar replaced Julian calendar in romancatholic countries. This reform came into use in Russia in 1918. So as i wrote Poland was under russian occupation and the priests were obligated to put two dates: Julian and Gregorian calendar dates.
The first date is Julian (Old Style), the second Gregorian (New Style).
To calculate the New Style Date You had to add 12 days to the old Style Date in XIX Century.
You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates |
Hi Marcel,
Should I write both dates down in my family group sheet for that person?
Thank you for the translation, advice, and website. Very interesting reading.
Trish |
It is up to You, but I think the date given as the second is more important. |
Hi Marcel,
Thank you again for your help and advice.
Trish
|
|
|
dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2793
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:54 am
Post subject: Re: Question about correct date on record
| Trish wrote: | | marcelproust wrote: | | Trish wrote: | | marcelproust wrote: | | Trish wrote: | Hi,
Marcel was kind enough to transcribe records for me. However on the record, it has to different dates. Can someone explain why? What date do I use for the date of death?
It happened in Wąwolnica, on February 16th/March 1st, 1902, at 2 p.m.
Appeared: Jan Łuszczyński, 42 years old and Józef Kędzierski, 38 years old, townsmen, farmers living in Wąwolnica, and they declared that on February 13th/26th of the current year, at 6 a.m., died in Wąwolnica: Feliks Marceli Pisarski, who lived in Wąwolnica, 68 years old, a peasant, worker, who was born in the village of Kowala, son of the late spouses: Andrzej Pisarski and Fryderyka nee Kędryk [the original baptism document for Feliks indicated his mother as Fryderyka nee Mędrak], who left his widowed wife, Emilia Zofia nee Rybczyńska, a peasant living in Wąwolnica.
Thanks for the advice.
Trish |
As for double dates. Poland was at russian occupation at that time. That is why the document is written in russian language. This double dating refers to so called Old Style and New Style dates. There was a calendar reform in XVI century: Gregorian calendar replaced Julian calendar in romancatholic countries. This reform came into use in Russia in 1918. So as i wrote Poland was under russian occupation and the priests were obligated to put two dates: Julian and Gregorian calendar dates.
The first date is Julian (Old Style), the second Gregorian (New Style).
To calculate the New Style Date You had to add 12 days to the old Style Date in XIX Century.
You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates |
Hi Marcel,
Should I write both dates down in my family group sheet for that person?
Thank you for the translation, advice, and website. Very interesting reading.
Trish |
It is up to You, but I think the date given as the second is more important. |
Hi Marcel,
Thank you again for your help and advice.
Trish |
Hi Trish,
As Marcel wrote, how you decide to handle dual dates is entirely up to you. Here are some things which I believe are worth considering in connection to dual dates. The Czarist government’s requirement of using Russian as the language of records in Poland together with the mandate to include dates according to the Julian Calendar formed a part of an attempt to eliminate Polish culture in what was known as the Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie) aka Russian Poland through forced Russification of Polish society. This was a reaction of the failed Polish uprising in 1864. Dates according to the Julian Calendar, in my opinion, was like the last breaths of a dying system. The Julian Calendar was actually a reform of the earlier Roman Calendar by Julius Caesar in 46 BC to bring the calendar more into sync with the solar year. The year 46 BC was in Roman usage the year 708 AUC. The ancient Romans calculated years from the foundation of Rome. AUC was shorthand for Ab Urbe Condita (From the Foundation of the City). Dates were calculated in reference to the fixed days of the Roman Calendar, i.e. the Kalends, the Nones, and the Ides. No one that I know of would seriously consider entering data according to the early Julian Calendar—2022 would be 2775 AUC according to the original Julian Calendar. But back to more recent history...What we know as the Gregorian Calendar was a reform of the Julian Calendar meant to correct the drift of the Julian Calendar from the solar year. Pope Gregory XIII’s reform of the calendar was intended to make sure that the celebration of Easter was in sync with the Vernal Equinox. (After all, no one wanted the Easter Bunny to bring baskets in winter weather.) Anyway, Pope Gregory decreed that the reform was to begin in 1582. The only countries which accepted the reformed calendar that year were the so called “Catholic” countries of Europe (and their colonies). The Gregorian calendar began to be used in Poland in that year of 1582. In typical knee jerk reaction fashion the “Protestant” countries of Europe and their colonies saw Gregory’s reform as a sinister Catholic plot and the Orthodox countries of Europe, including Russia, had not accepted anything decreed by the Bishop of Rome aka the Pope since the year 1054. By the end of the 19th Century the only countries of Europe which still used the Julian Calendar as their civil calendar were Russia and Greece. Russia began to use the Gregorian Calendar after the Russian Revolution and Greece adopted the Gregorian Calendar in 1923.
In short, the Julian dates were most certainly of little to no import to Poles living under Russian rule prior to the end of WWI. My question is why include the second date on a family group sheet? In my view, it should just be a footnote attached to the record itself. After all, the genealogy hobby really should look to the future in providing info in an interesting manner for those who may be interested in the history of their ancestors in days yet to come. Genealogy programs are useful—perhaps even essential—for keeping data organized and stored but I find reading things like family group sheets about as interesting and exciting as reading a phone book, presuming they are still published these days. In my opinion a narrative is more readable and has a greater chance of being of interest to future generations than a bare list of facts. Genealogy programs store and report data in ways which can be deadly dull for anyone not really into the genealogy hobby.
A related issue is how to list the location where an event took place. Genealogy programs usually automatically want to list places in terms of contemporary locations. During the 19th Century Poland didn’t exist as a political entity so to be historically accurate places should be listed in terms of the 3 powers which had seized parts of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth back in the 18th Century. Genealogy programs, in my experience, don’t/can’t handle that issue well. That is true not only of places in Europe but also of locations in North America. For example, someone born in 1771 in what is now Bangor Maine was born in Bangor Massachusetts Colony. So, dealing with place names also involves personal decisions.
Anyway, I hope that you find the above information of some value as you decide how you want to deal with facts like dates and places.
All the best,
Dave
|
|
|
TrishPO Top Contributor
Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Replies: 299
Back to top |
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Question about correct date on record
| dnowicki wrote: | | Trish wrote: | | marcelproust wrote: | | Trish wrote: | | marcelproust wrote: | | Trish wrote: | Hi,
Marcel was kind enough to transcribe records for me. However on the record, it has to different dates. Can someone explain why? What date do I use for the date of death?
Thanks for the advice.
Trish |
As for double dates. Poland was at russian occupation at that time. That is why the document is written in russian language. This double dating refers to so called Old Style and New Style dates. There was a calendar reform in XVI century: Gregorian calendar replaced Julian calendar in romancatholic countries. This reform came into use in Russia in 1918. So as i wrote Poland was under russian occupation and the priests were obligated to put two dates: Julian and Gregorian calendar dates.
The first date is Julian (Old Style), the second Gregorian (New Style).
To calculate the New Style Date You had to add 12 days to the old Style Date in XIX Century.
You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates |
Hi Marcel,
Should I write both dates down in my family group sheet for that person?
Trish |
It is up to You, but I think the date given as the second is more important. |
Hi Marcel,
Thank you again for your help and advice.
Trish |
Hi Trish,
As Marcel wrote, how you decide to handle dual dates is entirely up to you. Here are some things which I believe are worth considering in connection to dual dates. The Czarist government’s requirement of using Russian as the language of records in Poland together with the mandate to include dates according to the Julian Calendar formed a part of an attempt to eliminate Polish culture in what was known as the Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie) aka Russian Poland through forced Russification of Polish society. This was a reaction of the failed Polish uprising in 1864. Dates according to the Julian Calendar, in my opinion, was like the last breaths of a dying system. The Julian Calendar was actually a reform of the earlier Roman Calendar by Julius Caesar in 46 BC to bring the calendar more into sync with the solar year. The year 46 BC was in Roman usage the year 708 AUC. The ancient Romans calculated years from the foundation of Rome. AUC was shorthand for Ab Urbe Condita (From the Foundation of the City). Dates were calculated in reference to the fixed days of the Roman Calendar, i.e. the Kalends, the Nones, and the Ides. No one that I know of would seriously consider entering data according to the early Julian Calendar—2022 would be 2775 AUC according to the original Julian Calendar. But back to more recent history...What we know as the Gregorian Calendar was a reform of the Julian Calendar meant to correct the drift of the Julian Calendar from the solar year. Pope Gregory XIII’s reform of the calendar was intended to make sure that the celebration of Easter was in sync with the Vernal Equinox. (After all, no one wanted the Easter Bunny to bring baskets in winter weather.) Anyway, Pope Gregory decreed that the reform was to begin in 1582. The only countries which accepted the reformed calendar that year were the so called “Catholic” countries of Europe (and their colonies). The Gregorian calendar began to be used in Poland in that year of 1582. In typical knee jerk reaction fashion the “Protestant” countries of Europe and their colonies saw Gregory’s reform as a sinister Catholic plot and the Orthodox countries of Europe, including Russia, had not accepted anything decreed by the Bishop of Rome aka the Pope since the year 1054. By the end of the 19th Century the only countries of Europe which still used the Julian Calendar as their civil calendar were Russia and Greece. Russia began to use the Gregorian Calendar after the Russian Revolution and Greece adopted the Gregorian Calendar in 1923.
In short, the Julian dates were most certainly of little to no import to Poles living under Russian rule prior to the end of WWI. My question is why include the second date on a family group sheet? In my view, it should just be a footnote attached to the record itself. After all, the genealogy hobby really should look to the future in providing info in an interesting manner for those who may be interested in the history of their ancestors in days yet to come. Genealogy programs are useful—perhaps even essential—for keeping data organized and stored but I find reading things like family group sheets about as interesting and exciting as reading a phone book, presuming they are still published these days. In my opinion a narrative is more readable and has a greater chance of being of interest to future generations than a bare list of facts. Genealogy programs store and report data in ways which can be deadly dull for anyone not really into the genealogy hobby.
A related issue is how to list the location where an event took place. Genealogy programs usually automatically want to list places in terms of contemporary locations. During the 19th Century Poland didn’t exist as a political entity so to be historically accurate places should be listed in terms of the 3 powers which had seized parts of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth back in the 18th Century. Genealogy programs, in my experience, don’t/can’t handle that issue well. That is true not only of places in Europe but also of locations in North America. For example, someone born in 1771 in what is now Bangor Maine was born in Bangor Massachusetts Colony. So, dealing with place names also involves personal decisions.
Anyway, I hope that you find the above information of some value as you decide how you want to deal with facts like dates and places.
All the best,
Dave |
Hi Dave,
Thank you for all the valuable information and history lesson. I do appreciate it!
To answer your question, I want to be as accurate as possible when logging names, dates, and places no matter where ancestors are from. I do like creating family groups sheets for several reasons. I can list the correct date, and add the notation about the second date that was found in a record. I can list the various name changes. I can list the names of towns and also list what they are known as today. Plus it is much easier to share a word document with people.
Like you mentioned about genealogy programs, you are correct. They do not handle the different issues well.
You read my mind for I was going to ask in another post about the correct way to list a town that was under Germany/Prussia rule. I have had people notifying me to tell me I was wrong in the way I had the town listed. I had contacted two Polish Genealogical Societies concerning this matter and received two different answers about the same question. And it's not just with Polish record, I have people telling me I'm wrong in the way I documented a record from 1750 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Colony as well as a 1602 document from the Kingdom of Naples.
I just want to be as accuracte as possible. Thanks for the advice.
Trish
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Register