TedMack
Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Replies: 309
Location: Sydney, AustraliaBack to top |
Posted: 4 Days ago at 7:58 am
Post subject: Latin Record Translation
G'day Dave
Some very useful information as always - saved myself some money for an ice cream as Charles E. Bennett’s New Latin Grammar (1918) is available on line at - https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/bennett.html .
Looks like you edited your original reply and dropped off some notes where you had an asterisk - these follow:
.....Agnieszka Mąkowska, the mother of the household* of the Curate of this place.
The sponsors were the worthy* Augustyn Kobusinski......
Can you please provide your comments.
Cheers
Ted
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2486
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| TedMack wrote: | G'day Dave
Some very useful information as always - saved myself some money for an ice cream as Charles E. Bennett’s New Latin Grammar (1918) is available on line at - https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/bennett.html .
Looks like you edited your original reply and dropped off some notes where you had an asterisk - these follow:
.....Agnieszka Mąkowska, the mother of the household* of the Curate of this place.
The sponsors were the worthy* Augustyn Kobusinski......
Can you please provide your comments.
Cheers
Ted |
Hi Ted,
Here are the omitted notes.
Agnieszka
materfamilias/mother of household: usually used for the family matriarch. It is not clear to me that she is the mother of the curate or a servant/housekeeper since one record describes her as serving the curate which strikes me as a strange way for the priest to refer to his mother. A possible way to clear up the relationship would be to find an entry which gives the curate’s surname.
spectabilis/worthy: usually used to describe the social status of a patrician from a large town, which does not seem to fit the local organist—especially since only one entry describes him with that term. Perhaps it was used to indicate that he was a relatively well-to-do big fish in the small pond of the parish.
Glad to see that you saved enough cash for ice cream. (After all, ice cream, the elixir of life, is that which, as Ennius wrote, makes “vita vitalis”. ) I still have my hard cover copy of Bennett’s grammar but a few years ago I discovered a digital copy for Kindle which was free. I downloaded it but have not had occasion to use it but, hey, it was free. I doubt that Bennett’s grammar will turn you into a Latin scholar but checking it out will show how simple sacramental records are and why mastering Latin sacramental records—a worthy goal—does not mean that you can start reading other Latin docs.
Enjoy the ice cream.
Dave
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TedMack
Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Replies: 309
Location: Sydney, AustraliaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:27 am
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| dnowicki wrote: | | TedMack wrote: | G'day Dave
Some very useful information as always - saved myself some money for an ice cream as Charles E. Bennett’s New Latin Grammar (1918) is available on line at - https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/bennett.html .
Looks like you edited your original reply and dropped off some notes where you had an asterisk - these follow:
.....Agnieszka Mąkowska, the mother of the household* of the Curate of this place.
The sponsors were the worthy* Augustyn Kobusinski......
Can you please provide your comments.
Cheers
Ted |
Hi Ted,
Here are the omitted notes.
Agnieszka
materfamilias/mother of household: usually used for the family matriarch. It is not clear to me that she is the mother of the curate or a servant/housekeeper since one record describes her as serving the curate which strikes me as a strange way for the priest to refer to his mother. A possible way to clear up the relationship would be to find an entry which gives the curate’s surname.
spectabilis/worthy: usually used to describe the social status of a patrician from a large town, which does not seem to fit the local organist—especially since only one entry describes him with that term. Perhaps it was used to indicate that he was a relatively well-to-do big fish in the small pond of the parish.
Glad to see that you saved enough cash for ice cream. (After all, ice cream, the elixir of life, is that which, as Ennius wrote, makes “vita vitalis”. ) I still have my hard cover copy of Bennett’s grammar but a few years ago I discovered a digital copy for Kindle which was free. I downloaded it but have not had occasion to use it but, hey, it was free. I doubt that Bennett’s grammar will turn you into a Latin scholar but checking it out will show how simple sacramental records are and why mastering Latin sacramental records—a worthy goal—does not mean that you can start reading other Latin docs.
Enjoy the ice cream.
Dave |
Thanks Dave - the ice cream was enjoyable even though it is mid winter, any time is a good time for ice cream.
The unreadable place name is Skoraszewice which is also the name of the Parish. Attached is a copy of the full page of the record, the only place where it appears that the curate's name is given is midway down on page 2 although I think it may be saying that the curate has changed?? Otherwise, it's a visit to FamilySearch library to see if it is on the previous page. I note the organist is a perpetual godparent as well.
Cheers
Ted
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2486
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:34 am
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
[quote="TedMack"][quote="dnowicki"] | TedMack wrote: |
Thanks Dave - the ice cream was enjoyable even though it is mid winter, any time is a good time for ice cream.
The unreadable place name is Skoraszewice which is also the name of the Parish. Attached is a copy of the full page of the record, the only place where it appears that the curate's name is given is midway down on page 2 although I think it may be saying that the curate has changed?? Otherwise, it's a visit to FamilySearch library to see if it is on the previous page. I note the organist is a perpetual godparent as well.
Cheers
Ted |
Hi Ted,
If you mean the line which begins “Productum in Congregatione…” the priest who appears in the entry is the local dean (dziekan) not the local parish curate. One of the duties of a dean was to look at the parish registers. The dean is signing off that he fulfilled that duty.
You are absolutely correct—it is never too cold for ice cream...even at the North or the South Pole.
Dave
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Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:27 am
Post subject: Latin Record Translation
RE POST: Hello would someone please be able to translate this document for me for Petrus Jurkowski, I can read the parent's names, but I am unable to tell what the mother's (Angella's) surname is. Thank you in advance
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2486
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: 17 hours ago at 9:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Teresa Burger
| kalwin wrote: | Did I decipher that marriage record correctly? Could you please point out my mistakes.
12 October 1857 Majdan Huta 107/67
Adalbertus Herman (23) faber ferri, legitimanorum parentum, Antonii faberbis ferri in Bohorodczany et Elisabetha Bałoban filius.
Theresia Burger (15) filia legitima Antonii Burger, vitri faber in Majdan Huta et p.d. (post defuncta) Anastasiae Jaśniska.
Testes:
Adalbertus Burger vitrii faber ex Kolomea
Gabriel Philippowicz ferri faber ex Kolomea
Testimonium Parentus et Proclamationum sponsi uperidem im Actis No 13
Jako my, rodzicy małoletnich nowożeńców na ich małżeństwo zezwalamy, znakiem św. krzyżów stwierdzimy:
Anton Herman kowal w Bohorodczany X i
Anton Burger hutnik w Majdanie X
Benedixi Joannes Romankiewicz Administrator |
Hi,
You did quite well with your transcription of the handwritten text. Here are the few necessary corrections.
1. feberbris ferri should be fabri ferri. Faber is a 2nd Declension noun and the Genitive Singular is fabri.
2. In the testes section vitrii should be vitri. Vitrum is a 2nd Declension noun and the Genitive Singular is vitri.
3. Testimonium Parentum is actually Testimonium Ortus. Ortus, ortus, m. is a 4th Declension noun. In 4th Declension masculine nouns the Genitive Singular has the same ending as the Nominative Singular. Testimonium Ortus is translated as “Testimony of Birth” or as “Certificate of Birth”.
4. Uperidem is actually written as reperitum (which is a scribal error—it should be repertum). It is the Perfect Passive Participle of the verb reperio, reperire, repperi, repertum, to find. The phrase should be translated as “...is found in Acts Number 13.
In the Polish text…
1. “...św. krzyżów stwierdzimy” is “św. krzyża (singular) twierdzimy” (There is no initial s). The usual English phrase is his/her/their mark. Since both fathers were illiterate they had to sign with their mark rather than their name.
2. Bohorodczany is Bohorodczanach—the Locative ending of this place name is
-ach.
Wishing you continued success,
Dave
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