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rfiorille



Joined: 26 Jul 2019
Replies: 23
Location: Jersey City

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:02 am      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi Robert,
I think you may as well post these two records on the Russian Translation thread, and possibly your letter from the archives on the Polish translation thread as well, if you feel like you missed any of its content. Based on what the archives letter said, and since I cannot read the Russian records, I would say that this is not your great grandfather Jozef. It is a girl, Jozefa, very possibly his older sister. I am hesitant about whether your Andrzejewski family and this Andrzejczak family are one and the same, although the indication from the archives that the mother of these children is Katarzyna Gibalska, and the father is Jan, does favor that chance.
Best,
Sophia


Thank you Sophia. I did not receive an email that a reply was posted to this topic and only saw your reply today, almost 1 month after. I don't know if I was too excited at the moment when I read the name "Jozefa" to recognize that the name was female or if I let gmail translate the message before I read the name, because gmail translates it to Joseph Smile Either way, yes, wrong gender. The fact that the record was for a female was also pointed out to me by Marcelproust. I have not yet sent the for the copies of these records, but I plan to this week, if only for the one from 1886. The two from 1882 and 1884 I believe I found on the on the szukajwarchiwach.pl website because records are available up to 1884.

The record for Józefa Andrzejczak is here:

https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/54/731/0/6.1/137/str/1/1/100/Pbz5-cHU5JC5H0rQrJHRig/#tabSkany

and the record for Franc (Franciszek) Andrzejczak is here:

https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/54/731/0/6.1/135/str/1/1/100/gpOL5IJbOb2HffQlwm1cYQ/#tabSkany

I've attached the records below as well. My only hesitation for posting them on the Russian Translation thread as you suggest is that a translation of the records alone will not include the context of my search and the surname Andrzejewski that I'm researching - all of which is included in this post. So I am asking for a translation of the records within this post along with any more opinions on whether this is, or most likely is, the family of Jan Andrzejewski and Catherine Gibalska.

As far as the surname change, my feeling is that this is the same family. If I was able to understand, decipher and read the Russian and the Polish handwriting, I would be more motivated to dig deeper into the records to see if there is an Andrzejczak family and another Catherine Gibalska who married a Jan with a name similar to Andrzejewski. But the villages I'm dealing with seem small enough to rule out this possibility, so I'm going with it until I'm proven otherwise.

Thank you again for your suggestions Sophia. They're very much appreciated!
Robert



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Józefa Andrzejczak (nr 32 z 1884 r.)
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Franc (Franciszek) Andrzejczak (nr 92 z 1882 r.)
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:09 am      Post subject:
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rfiorille wrote:


Thank you Sophia. I did not receive an email that a reply was posted to this topic and only saw your reply today, almost 1 month after. I don't know if I was too excited at the moment when I read the name "Jozefa" to recognize that the name was female or if I let gmail translate the message before I read the name, because gmail translates it to Joseph Smile Either way, yes, wrong gender. The fact that the record was for a female was also pointed out to me by Marcelproust. I have not yet sent the for the copies of these records, but I plan to this week, if only for the one from 1886. The two from 1882 and 1884 I believe I found on the on the szukajwarchiwach.pl website because records are available up to 1884.

I've attached the records below as well. My only hesitation for posting them on the Russian Translation thread as you suggest is that a translation of the records alone will not include the context of my search and the surname Andrzejewski that I'm researching - all of which is included in this post. So I am asking for a translation of the records within this post along with any more opinions on whether this is, or most likely is, the family of Jan Andrzejewski and Catherine Gibalska.

As far as the surname change, my feeling is that this is the same family. If I was able to understand, decipher and read the Russian and the Polish handwriting, I would be more motivated to dig deeper into the records to see if there is an Andrzejczak family and another Catherine Gibalska who married a Jan with a name similar to Andrzejewski. But the villages I'm dealing with seem small enough to rule out this possibility, so I'm going with it until I'm proven otherwise.

Thank you again for your suggestions Sophia. They're very much appreciated!
Robert


Hi Robert,
Nice to see you back again! Regarding the translation, almost all of the translations from Russian are done by Karol "MarcelProust" who has already participated in your thread, so he will likely recognize it and recall the context. Actually, I'm not convinced that full context is needed in order to get a proper translation, but you could always post there with a quick intro explaining how you are looking for Andrzejewskis but the archive only found Andrzejczaks, or some such wording.
Regarding the names Jozef and Jozefa, you do need to be cautious. When these names are used in the nominative case, it is easy to see that one is male and the other female. When used in sentences, however, you might easily be tripped up, as the male name Jozef changes depending on the grammatical case, and can even be Jozefa! Simple example, "the son of Jozef" is "syn Jozefa." The -a ending is taking the place of English "of." This is why, if you have ever looked at a calendar that provides Polish name days, you might be confused. Each day is a day "of saint somebody" so the name gets an ending attached to it. But I digress.
I take your point about the expected rarity of two couples living in the same place, one being Jan Andrzejewski who married Katarzyna Gibalska, and the other being Jan Andrzejczak who married Katarzyna Gibalska. Just this past Spring I went diving into records with what I thought was a really rare name, only to find three different women named exactly that, although not all the same age. Still, I agree with your choice to follow these Andrzejczaks, until something else proves otherwise.
Best,
Sophia
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rfiorille



Joined: 26 Jul 2019
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Location: Jersey City

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:09 am      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:

Hi Robert,
Nice to see you back again! Regarding the translation, almost all of the translations from Russian are done by Karol "MarcelProust" who has already participated in your thread, so he will likely recognize it and recall the context. Actually, I'm not convinced that full context is needed in order to get a proper translation, but you could always post there with a quick intro explaining how you are looking for Andrzejewskis but the archive only found Andrzejczaks, or some such wording.
Regarding the names Jozef and Jozefa, you do need to be cautious. When these names are used in the nominative case, it is easy to see that one is male and the other female. When used in sentences, however, you might easily be tripped up, as the male name Jozef changes depending on the grammatical case, and can even be Jozefa! Simple example, "the son of Jozef" is "syn Jozefa." The -a ending is taking the place of English "of." This is why, if you have ever looked at a calendar that provides Polish name days, you might be confused. Each day is a day "of saint somebody" so the name gets an ending attached to it. But I digress.
I take your point about the expected rarity of two couples living in the same place, one being Jan Andrzejewski who married Katarzyna Gibalska, and the other being Jan Andrzejczak who married Katarzyna Gibalska. Just this past Spring I went diving into records with what I thought was a really rare name, only to find three different women named exactly that, although not all the same age. Still, I agree with your choice to follow these Andrzejczaks, until something else proves otherwise.
Best,
Sophia


Thank you Sophia, it's good to be back! I received the topic reply notification email so hopefully whatever snag was causing me not to get them earlier has been cleared Smile My wife is Slovenian and although I could never figure out or understand all the declinations and grammatical cases of the Slovenian language on my own, I have seen a name-ending change to names (as well as surnames) in that language that is very similar to what you describe in the Polish language. I did show the record of this Jozefa Andrzejcak to Karol when I first received it and that was when he pointed out that it was for a female child. Along with the record was the email from the archives so maybe he just read Jozefa in their email? Although I am doubtful that is the case. Regardless, I will post the records to the Russian Translation Thread for confirmation, as well as for vital information regarding Jan Andrzejcak and Katarzyna Gibalska because, as a matter of fact, I never got that info from the records. Thanks for your quick reply!

Sincerely,
Robert
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:44 am      Post subject:
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Hi Robert,
I see your translations were done. Now, how do you interpret them? In the 1882, Jan is Andrzejewski but in the 1884 he is Andrzejczak. And in the 16 months that separates these two records, Jan ages by 1 year, Katarzyna ages by 3 years, and Pawel ages by 15 years!
I am tempted to conclude that the priest was not very good with details, no disrespect intended. I will be interested to know your take on it.
Best,
Sophia
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rfiorille



Joined: 26 Jul 2019
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Location: Jersey City

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Post Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:24 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi Robert,
I see your translations were done. Now, how do you interpret them? In the 1882, Jan is Andrzejewski but in the 1884 he is Andrzejczak. And in the 16 months that separates these two records, Jan ages by 1 year, Katarzyna ages by 3 years, and Pawel ages by 15 years!
I am tempted to conclude that the priest was not very good with details, no disrespect intended. I will be interested to know your take on it.
Best,
Sophia


Hi Sophia,

Your observations are interesting. I agree with you that the priest was not very good with details. I am confused however about the different surnames of the father. The Polish Archives wrote in their email that the surname of the father on all three birth acts was Andrzejczak, so why Marcelproust translates the father's surname as Andrzejewski for the birth of Franciszek confuses me. I believe I see these names on the birth acts and they appear to be the same letters, but I'm not sure. The different surnames also present another "problem" for me. I'm not certain if the Polish Archives performed an additional search of my first request for the years 1889 -1893 with the name Andrzejczak. I thought that's what they were indicating in their email to me when they told me about these three births:

W przedmiotowych materiałach nie odnaleziono wpisu dotyczącego osoby o
imieniu i nazwisku: Józef (Josef) Andrzejewski, ani wpisów dotyczących
jego rodzeństwa, a tym samym ich aktów urodzeń.

Jednocześnie informujemy, że w toku przedmiotowej, jak i poprzedniej
kwerendy (zob. sprawa OK.XXXX.XX.2019) odnaleziono akty urodzeń osób o
nazwisku Andrzejczak, których matką była Katarzyna z Gibalskich a ojcem
Jan (zapisywany także w formie Iwan, stanowiącej rosyjski odpowiednik
imienia Jan), a mianowicie:


Translated:

The material in question was not found alert on a person with a name and surname: Joseph (Josef) Andrzejewski, or posts about his siblings, and thus their birth certificates.

Please also note that in the course of this and the previous query (see. OK.6344.89.2019 matter) found birth certificates of people named Andrzejczak, whose mother was Catherine of Gibalskich and his father John (also written in the form of Ivan, which is the Russian equivalent of the name John), namely:


I feel I have to make another request for them to search for any children with the last name Andrzejczak born to Jan Andrzejczak and Katarzyna Gibalskich between 1889 and 1893 again. Does this make sense what I'm confused about or trying to figure out?

Best,
Robert
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:45 pm      Post subject:
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rfiorille wrote:

Hi Sophia,

Your observations are interesting. I agree with you that the priest was not very good with details. I am confused however about the different surnames of the father. The Polish Archives wrote in their email that the surname of the father on all three birth acts was Andrzejczak, so why Marcelproust translates the father's surname as Andrzejewski for the birth of Franciszek confuses me. I believe I see these names on the birth acts and they appear to be the same letters, but I'm not sure. The different surnames also present another "problem" for me. I'm not certain if the Polish Archives performed an additional search of my first request for the years 1889 -1893 with the name Andrzejczak. I thought that's what they were indicating in their email to me when they told me about these three births:

W przedmiotowych materiałach nie odnaleziono wpisu dotyczącego osoby o
imieniu i nazwisku: Józef (Josef) Andrzejewski, ani wpisów dotyczących
jego rodzeństwa, a tym samym ich aktów urodzeń.

Jednocześnie informujemy, że w toku przedmiotowej, jak i poprzedniej
kwerendy (zob. sprawa OK.XXXX.XX.2019) odnaleziono akty urodzeń osób o
nazwisku Andrzejczak, których matką była Katarzyna z Gibalskich a ojcem
Jan (zapisywany także w formie Iwan, stanowiącej rosyjski odpowiednik
imienia Jan), a mianowicie:


Translated:

The material in question was not found alert on a person with a name and surname: Joseph (Josef) Andrzejewski, or posts about his siblings, and thus their birth certificates.

Please also note that in the course of this and the previous query (see. OK.6344.89.2019 matter) found birth certificates of people named Andrzejczak, whose mother was Catherine of Gibalskich and his father John (also written in the form of Ivan, which is the Russian equivalent of the name John), namely:


I feel I have to make another request for them to search for any children with the last name Andrzejczak born to Jan Andrzejczak and Katarzyna Gibalskich between 1889 and 1893 again. Does this make sense what I'm confused about or trying to figure out?

Best,
Robert


Hi Robert,
I went and looked at the surname as written in the two records that Marcelproust translated, and I agree with you. The name ends the same way both times, with the letter A, the letter K, and the symbol for the last consonant being a hard consonant, which is to say it is written Andrzejczak.
I think Marcelproust's translation is wrong.
I think you are using a "machine" translation of the Polish from the archives, but it has come out pretty close. In that first sentence, the words "alert" and "posts" are really better understood as "entries" in the church record. In the second sentence, your "Catherine of Gibalskich" should be "Katarzyna nee Gibalska" or "Katarzyna, maiden name Gibalska" or even "Katarzyna of the Gibalski family;" any of these can be used in English to express what Gibalskich means in this sentence.
Why not go ahead and ask the archives to review the 1889-1893 records for Andrzejczak children? The worst they can say is that there are none.
Until they find Joseph, I will not be totally convinced that this Andrzejczak family is your Andrzejewski family. Have you thought of asking whether birth records (like, two decades earlier) show more than one Katarzyna Gibalska?
Best,
Sophia

Edit on Nov. 14: Ignore that last suggestion. I see that Katarzyna Gibalska would have her birth record in a different parish. Given the year she would have been born, I expect it would be written in Polish rather than English. Have you looked for it?
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rfiorille



Joined: 26 Jul 2019
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Location: Jersey City

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:02 am      Post subject:
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Hello Forum!

Would it be possible to get the name of entry #2 on the attached index and also a translation for its entry #68? Additionally, here is a link to them online (images 44 and 29).

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1825178

Thank you!
Robert



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Post Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:38 am      Post subject:
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rfiorille wrote:
Hello Forum!

Would it be possible to get the name of entry #2 on the attached index and also a translation for its entry #68? Additionally, here is a link to them online (images 44 and 29).

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1825178

Thank you!
Robert


Hi Robert,
If you want a full translation of this document, you should try posting on the Russian records translation thread where Marcel is more likely to see it.
If all you want to know is the given name of the person whose baptism is recorded in Akt #68, I can help you because within the Russian text, there are key names written also in Polish.
The child's name is Michał. His father's name is Marcin Andrzejczak. His mother is Józefa Budnera.
Best regards,
Sophia
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rfiorille



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Post Posted: 5 Days ago at 6:33 am      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi Robert,
If you want a full translation of this document, you should try posting on the Russian records translation thread where Marcel is more likely to see it.
If all you want to know is the given name of the person whose baptism is recorded in Akt #68, I can help you because within the Russian text, there are key names written also in Polish.
The child's name is Michał. His father's name is Marcin Andrzejczak. His mother is Józefa Budnera.
Best regards,
Sophia


Hi Sophia,

Thank you for deciphering the names and for the suggestion to post on the Russian records translation thread. I posted the record here in order to keep my Andrzejewski research all together, but I see your point about better visibility.

I never responded to your previous post back in 2019 asking if I had searched for Katarzyna Gibalska's birth record. I did find the record and you were correct that, being from 1861, it was written in Polish. If you have interest, the record is here https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/jednostka/-/jednostka/1830326. It is scan #10 on the webpage, entry #29 in the records. Here is the translation:

Marynki
Nr 29

It happened in the village Modzerowo on the 12th day of October 1861, at 10 a.m. Appeared Jan Gibalski, farmer living in Marynki, 45 years old, in the presence of Andrzej Marciniak, 41 years old and Maciej Rusztyk, 50 years old, both farmers living in Marynki and presented Us a female child, born in Marynki, on the 7th day of the current month and year, at 3 p.m., with his wife Marianna nee Rydlewska, 36 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today, the child was given the name Katarzyna and the godparents were: Antoni Sobiecki and Elżbieta Katzarowska.
This act was read to the illiterate declarant and witnesses and signed only by us.

Priest Józef Sypniewski, serving as Civil registrar.

I am still searching for the birth record of my great grandfather Jozef Andrzejewski. More records are now available on the szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl site than there were previously in 2019, but the Russian is proving very difficult for me to decipher even the indices. I think I have found a Jozef Andrzejczak born in 1888, but I think he may be the child of the same Marcin Andrzejczak and Jozefa Budnera in the record I posted before this. I will post that to the Russian Record Translation thread.

Thank you again for your help!
Robert
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