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TedMack



Joined: 12 Jun 2020
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:04 am      Post subject: Latin Record Translation
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G'day Dave

Thanks for the translations earlier this week. This week's translations are attached. There are 2 translations for Walenty as it was written up twice. Seems to be another case within the same parish where the surnames change - Krawczyk - Belkowski?? Suppose it could be Marianna's maiden name. Will need to search for a marriage record next, hopefully it is in this parish.

As usual as time permits.

Cheers
Ted



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Kurt1322



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Post Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:32 am      Post subject: Small Details?
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I was hoping that someone may help me with translating the marriage of my Great Uncle. I believe I have a handle on the basic stuff but I am wondering if their is a small detail of interest in the section of the "Legal Formalities" and announcement of the Bans? Particularly if any reference to Florian's occupation or status in Military?

Thank you,

Kurt



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:21 am      Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
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TedMack wrote:
G'day Dave

Thanks for the translations earlier this week. This week's translations are attached. There are 2 translations for Walenty as it was written up twice. Seems to be another case within the same parish where the surnames change - Krawczyk - Belkowski?? Suppose it could be Marianna's maiden name. Will need to search for a marriage record next, hopefully it is in this parish.

As usual as time permits.

Cheers
Ted


Hi Ted,

There is no significant difference between the two baptismal records and nothing that I can see which sheds light on the surname change. Surnames were still quite fluid and mutable during the late18th and early 19th Centuries. Rather than one being the maiden name of Maryanna (which I’ve never seen happen in the thousands of B&B records I’ve read and translated) I would suggest concentrating on the time when the surname Krawczyk first appeared. It is an occupational surname (tailor) and if the occupation of the first individual to appear with that surname was a tailor that may be your answer to the why and wherefore of the change.

Good luck.

Dave

1796 Birth & Baptism:

(Number) Kielczewo Smużne. On the same day I baptized a female infant by the name of Teresa born yesterday at the second hour after noon of the legitimate marital union of the industrious Norbert and Maryanna Bęlkowski, serfs in Kielczewo. The sponsors were the uright Sebastian Popławski (?), residing in Kielczewo Smużne, with the upright Maryanna ??biecka in the pastor’s office of the church.

B & B Walenty, take 1:
Kielczewo Smużne. On the 15th day of February I, who is above baptized an infant by the name of Walenty born on the 11th day of the same month at the 6th hour in the evening of the legitimate marriage of Norbert and Maryanna Bełkowski. The sponsors were the upright Roch Rutkowski and Magdalena Elemberkowa.

Take 2;
Kielczewo Smużne on the 15th day of February of the year as above I, who is above, baptized an infant by the name of Walenty, born on the 11th day of the current month and the (blank ) hour in the evening of the legitimate marriage of Norbert and Maryanna Bełkowski. The sponsors were the upright Roch Rutkowski and Magdalena Elemberkowa, the wife of the miller in Kielczewo Smużne.

B & B Wojciech
22 Kielczew Smużny. On the 10th day of April I, Ignacy Mejier, superior of the parish church of Wrząca, baptized an infant born the same day by the name of Wojciech, the son of the legitimate marriage of the industrious Ludwik and Rozalia Antczak. The sponsors were the industrious Marcin Nowitcak and Maaryanna Klimczakowa from Kielczew Smużny.
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:19 pm      Post subject: Re: Small Details?
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Kurt1322 wrote:
I was hoping that someone may help me with translating the marriage of my Great Uncle. I believe I have a handle on the basic stuff but I am wondering if their is a small detail of interest in the section of the "Legal Formalities" and announcement of the Bans? Particularly if any reference to Florian's occupation or status in Military?

Thank you,

Kurt


Kurt,

There is no mention of any military status or service in connection to the groom. There is no occupation given for the groom nor for anyone else who appears in the record. The legal notations state that the results of the prenuptial examination of the groom had been sent and that he produced his baptismal certificate from, I presume, Wielkie Mosty (presently Velyki Mosty, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine, where he had been born and where the parish church was located. The license/permission from the minors and orphans court in Lubaczów had been granted for the underage bride. The banns had been announced and the assistant priest who blessed the marriage did so with the consent of the local pastor. Like they say in the cartoons “That’s all, folks.”

From what I’ve read, the prenuptial exam in Galicia at the time of the wedding was extremely basic. The groom had to demonstrate that he had a rudimentary knowledge of the Catholic Faith by reciting the Our Father, the Hail Mary, the Glory Be and the Apostles’ Creed.

Good luck with your research.

Dave
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TedMack



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:24 am      Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
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dnowicki wrote:
TedMack wrote:
G'day Dave

Thanks for the translations earlier this week. This week's translations are attached. There are 2 translations for Walenty as it was written up twice. Seems to be another case within the same parish where the surnames change - Krawczyk - Belkowski?? Suppose it could be Marianna's maiden name. Will need to search for a marriage record next, hopefully it is in this parish.

As usual as time permits.

Cheers
Ted


Hi Ted,

There is no significant difference between the two baptismal records and nothing that I can see which sheds light on the surname change. Surnames were still quite fluid and mutable during the late18th and early 19th Centuries. Rather than one being the maiden name of Maryanna (which I’ve never seen happen in the thousands of B&B records I’ve read and translated) I would suggest concentrating on the time when the surname Krawczyk first appeared. It is an occupational surname (tailor) and if the occupation of the first individual to appear with that surname was a tailor that may be your answer to the why and wherefore of the change.

Good luck.

Dave


G'day Dave

Looking through the records with the surnames listed is slightly problematic as not all the B&B records list a surname (only Teresa and Walenty). My 3xGGM Aniela Krawczyk has no surname listed in her B&B. The marriage for Norbert has no surname listed, neither does his death record (to be sent) although I did find Walenty's death record and it lists Belkowski as the surname. Unable to locate Norbert's wife's death record as there are too many Maryanna records with no surname - I'll keep looking for clues.

The first mention of Krawczyk was in Aniela's marriage record, her death record lists the maiden name as Krawiec.

Attached to indicate how the surnames are changed around (to complicate things she married Jacek Oleynik who has Klimczak on his baptism). Disregard the parents listed for Jacek in his death record - It is a furphy (Australian slang for "a false report") by his brother Kacper.

I am unable to locate any further details of Krawczyk or Belkowski in Geneteka so will need to further search the Latin pre 1808 records for any clues.

Cheers
Ted



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TedMack



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:25 am      Post subject: Latin Record Translation
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G'day Dave

Attached are the 2 death records for Walenty and Norbert - don't think there are any clues to the Krawczyk v Belkowski mystery. Daughter Aniela's marriage record gives the impression that Norbert was still alive in 1809, but from other records where this impression is given I have found that it is not always as transcribed - it may well be that the death for Norbert is incorrect.

Can you please translate when time permits.

Cheers
Ted



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TedMack



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Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:22 am      Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
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dnowicki wrote:


Hi Ted,

There is no significant difference between the two baptismal records and nothing that I can see which sheds light on the surname change. Surnames were still quite fluid and mutable during the late18th and early 19th Centuries. Rather than one being the maiden name of Maryanna (which I’ve never seen happen in the thousands of B&B records I’ve read and translated) I would suggest concentrating on the time when the surname Krawczyk first appeared. It is an occupational surname (tailor) and if the occupation of the first individual to appear with that surname was a tailor that may be your answer to the why and wherefore of the change.

Good luck.

Dave

1796 Birth & Baptism:

(Number) Kielczewo Smużne. On the same day I baptized a female infant by the name of Teresa born yesterday at the second hour after noon of the legitimate marital union of the industrious Norbert and Maryanna Bęlkowski, serfs in Kielczewo. The sponsors were the uright Sebastian Popławski (?), residing in Kielczewo Smużne, with the upright Maryanna ??biecka in the pastor’s office of the church.



G'day Dave

Just wondering if you can read the date in Record 110 in the attached - I'm only after the date as your translation for the above refers to the baptism being undertaken on the same day.

Cheers
Ted



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:16 pm      Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
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TedMack wrote:
G'day Dave

Attached are the 2 death records for Walenty and Norbert - don't think there are any clues to the Krawczyk v Belkowski mystery. Daughter Aniela's marriage record gives the impression that Norbert was still alive in 1809, but from other records where this impression is given I have found that it is not always as transcribed - it may well be that the death for Norbert is incorrect.

Can you please translate when time permits.

Cheers
Ted


Hi Ted,

The death record you posted is definitely not that of your ancestor. He is 28 years old at the time of his death and as described as the son of Tomasz. The village where the events took place is not the village where your ancestors were living. If this record worth the death of your ancestor Norbert he would have been described in terms of his widowed wife. Also the marriage record of Aniela does much more than imply that her father was still alive at the time of her wedding. It makes a statement of fact that he was alive. Here is what the marriage records states: “...która w domu rodzielskim została w assystencyi ojca swego Norberta Krawczyka komornika zamieszkanego w Kielczewie Smużnym y Maryanny matki swey…” (Don’t let the old 19th & early 20th Century Polish spellings throw you. The spelling reforms were still more than 100 years in the future when the records were composed. The translation of this statement is “...who remained in the company of her father Norbert Krawczyk, a tenant residing in Kiełczew Smużny, and Maryanna, her mother...”So unless Aniela was living in a haunted house her parents definitely were both alive at the time of her wedding. There is no reason for me to translate that death record.

Now we move on to the question of the shifting surname. After having done some research it is my opinion that the surname was always Krawczyk and never Bełkowski. I guess that the surname is in Australian slang a “furphy”. It seems to me that a combination of the surname appearing once in the Geneteka index and the coincidence of two couples in the same village having identical given names, Norbert and Maryanna, led to the false conclusion that the two couples we’re only one couple whose surname changed over the years. However that was not the case at all. One couple was Norbert and Maryanna Krawczyk and another couple was Norbert and Maryanna Bełkowski. Aristotelian logic demands, as the Scholastic Philosophers were wont to say, that if there was only one couple who had a shifting surname all should be explained with evidence “quod demonstrandum est” i.e. which must be demonstrated. There is no such evidence to prove the shifting of the surname since that did not happen. Based on info from Geneteka it appears that prior to 1807 Norbert and Maryanna Bełkowski left Kiełczew Smużny and moved to the village of Mchowo. Mchowo is approximately 16km or c. 10 miles to the north of Kiełczew Smużny. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Norbert and Maryanna Krawczyk were still living in the same old village of Kiełczew Smużny when their daughter married in 1809. In Mchowo their daughter Kunegunda died in 1808 (#24) and a son, Michał, who was born on 9 September 1807 (#36). (Cf. The attached images.) Although the evidence is not absolutely irrefutable it does form a logical and probable explanation. Certainly more could be written about the whys and the wherefores of the move to the new village so soon after the old feudal obligations have been eliminated in Prussian controlled territory in 1806. However that is a topic for another day. If nothing else this new information should provide you with a springboard for further research.

Looks like more fun awaits you.

Dave



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:23 pm      Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
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TedMack wrote:
dnowicki wrote:


Hi Ted,

There is no significant difference between the two baptismal records and nothing that I can see which sheds light on the surname change. Surnames were still quite fluid and mutable during the late18th and early 19th Centuries. Rather than one being the maiden name of Maryanna (which I’ve never seen happen in the thousands of B&B records I’ve read and translated) I would suggest concentrating on the time when the surname Krawczyk first appeared. It is an occupational surname (tailor) and if the occupation of the first individual to appear with that surname was a tailor that may be your answer to the why and wherefore of the change.

Good luck.

Dave

1796 Birth & Baptism:

(Number) Kielczewo Smużne. On the same day I baptized a female infant by the name of Teresa born yesterday at the second hour after noon of the legitimate marital union of the industrious Norbert and Maryanna Bęlkowski, serfs in Kielczewo. The sponsors were the uright Sebastian Popławski (?), residing in Kielczewo Smużne, with the upright Maryanna ??biecka in the pastor’s office of the church.



G'day Dave

Just wondering if you can read the date in Record 110 in the attached - I'm only after the date as your translation for the above refers to the baptism being undertaken on the same day.

Cheers
Ted


Ted,

Although it probably is of no import, all things considered, but the date is 15 October.

Dave
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TedMack



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Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:45 am      Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
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dnowicki wrote:


Hi Ted,

The death record you posted is definitely not that of your ancestor. He is 28 years old at the time of his death and as described as the son of Tomasz. The village where the events took place is not the village where your ancestors were living. If this record worth the death of your ancestor Norbert he would have been described in terms of his widowed wife. Also the marriage record of Aniela does much more than imply that her father was still alive at the time of her wedding. It makes a statement of fact that he was alive. Here is what the marriage records states: “...która w domu rodzielskim została w assystencyi ojca swego Norberta Krawczyka komornika zamieszkanego w Kielczewie Smużnym y Maryanny matki swey…” (Don’t let the old 19th & early 20th Century Polish spellings throw you. The spelling reforms were still more than 100 years in the future when the records were composed. The translation of this statement is “...who remained in the company of her father Norbert Krawczyk, a tenant residing in Kiełczew Smużny, and Maryanna, her mother...”So unless Aniela was living in a haunted house her parents definitely were both alive at the time of her wedding. There is no reason for me to translate that death record.

Now we move on to the question of the shifting surname. After having done some research it is my opinion that the surname was always Krawczyk and never Bełkowski. I guess that the surname is in Australian slang a “furphy”. It seems to me that a combination of the surname appearing once in the Geneteka index and the coincidence of two couples in the same village having identical given names, Norbert and Maryanna, led to the false conclusion that the two couples we’re only one couple whose surname changed over the years. However that was not the case at all. One couple was Norbert and Maryanna Krawczyk and another couple was Norbert and Maryanna Bełkowski. Aristotelian logic demands, as the Scholastic Philosophers were wont to say, that if there was only one couple who had a shifting surname all should be explained with evidence “quod demonstrandum est” i.e. which must be demonstrated. There is no such evidence to prove the shifting of the surname since that did not happen. Based on info from Geneteka it appears that prior to 1807 Norbert and Maryanna Bełkowski left Kiełczew Smużny and moved to the village of Mchowo. Mchowo is approximately 16km or c. 10 miles to the north of Kiełczew Smużny. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Norbert and Maryanna Krawczyk were still living in the same old village of Kiełczew Smużny when their daughter married in 1809. In Mchowo their daughter Kunegunda died in 1808 (#24) and a son, Michał, who was born on 9 September 1807 (#36). (Cf. The attached images.) Although the evidence is not absolutely irrefutable it does form a logical and probable explanation. Certainly more could be written about the whys and the wherefores of the move to the new village so soon after the old feudal obligations have been eliminated in Prussian controlled territory in 1806. However that is a topic for another day. If nothing else this new information should provide you with a springboard for further research.

Looks like more fun awaits you.

Dave


G'day Dave

Wonderful insightful information as always. I thought that the death record for Norbert was probably incorrect, but a translation was required by me to be sure.

Yes, it does appear that I may have jumped the gun here by associating Krawczyk and Belkowski without due diligence in establishing direct linkage. I suppose I was thrown by the reference in Aniela's last born child baptism record indicating that Aniela's maiden name was Belkowski - copy of image attached. I formed the link based on the information I have that Norbert and Marianna married in Feb 1786, their first born arrived in Feb 1787 and Aniela in Jan 1788. From then on everything seems to go quite. When I found the B&B records for those listed under Norbert & Marianna Belkowski I put 2 and 2 together and thought I came up with 4 but it looks like I actually came up with 5. It didn't help that Aniela married Jacek Olejniczak wherein they were called Klimczak up until his father remarried.

I definitely need to do more investigation and try and locate either further birth records or death records for Norbert & Marianna, although their deaths do not exist in Wrząca Wielka.

Cheers
Ted



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Post Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:29 pm      Post subject:
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Hi, I would be very happy about this translation.
1768, Warszawa. Marriage record Piotr Krauze and Franciszka Moscicka.



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TedMack



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:29 am      Post subject: Latin Record Translation
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G'day Dave

I have another Krawczyk record for translation please when time permits.

Cheers
Ted



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Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:23 am      Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
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TedMack wrote:
G'day Dave

I have another Krawczyk record for translation please when time permits.

Cheers
Ted


Hi Ted,

The 1820 record is certainly an outlier in terms of the mother’s maiden name. It is my belief that reading such records through the lens of the history of the time and the place can be a valuable aid in a better understanding of the record as well as a means to evaluate the accuracy of its content. Unlike today, the culture of the 19th Century (and not just in partitioned Poland) kept women from having a significant role in public life in general and in providing info for vital docs in particular. The mother of a child almost always was not present to provide info regarding her own maiden name nor was she present for the actual baptismal ceremony. Exactly where the info regarding her maiden name came from is virtually impossible to determine. The assumption in a long paragraph form baptismal record is that the info was provided by the father but that assumption is not necessarily accurate despite the wording found in the doc. The father or one of the witnesses or sponsors may have provided the info. On the other hand, the priest may simply have entered what he presumed was true from his knowledge of his parishioners. Since many priests hired someone who was literate to compose the final draft of the civil record from notes the priest had written while arranging for the actual baptism. Thus there are multiple points where incorrect info can enter the stream. The wording of the doc contains conventional phrases which describe the reporting of the birth, some of which may have been no more than a conventional fiction. An example would be the statement regarding the presenting of the child to the civil registrar. In reality since the priest was acting both as a religious functionary and as a civil registrar his actual contact with the child would have happened during the baptismal ceremony and not in the office. The bottom line is that the mother’s maiden name does not come from the first hand source, i.e. the mother, and there are many places from which incorrect info may derive. If one were to describe the status of the info regarding the maiden name of the mother in legal jargon one would have to categorize the info as hearsay at best. It can only be considered accurate if it can be shown to be backed up by other sources and I do not see that as a viable possibility.

Here follows the translation of the B&B of Maryanna Krawczyk.

Dave

42. Kiełczew Smużny* on the 6th day of October I, who is above, the pastor, baptized an infant by the name of Maryanna, born on the second day of the same (month) of the legitimate marriage of the industrious Norbert and Maryanna Krawczyk. The sponsors were the industrious Adam Gawronski and Apolonia Jędrzeyka from Kiełczewo Smużne*.

Note: *Within this one record we find two variations of the name of the village,
Kiełczew Smużny and Kiełczewo Smużne*, which was by no means an unusual occurrence and is another example of the fluidity of names during the late 18th and early 19th Centuries.
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:25 am      Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
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dnowicki wrote:


Hi Ted,

The 1820 record is certainly an outlier in terms of the mother’s maiden name. It is my belief that reading such records through the lens of the history of the time and the place can be a valuable aid in a better understanding of the record as well as a means to evaluate the accuracy of its content. Unlike today, the culture of the 19th Century (and not just in partitioned Poland) kept women from having a significant role in public life in general and in providing info for vital docs in particular. The mother of a child almost always was not present to provide info regarding her own maiden name nor was she present for the actual baptismal ceremony. Exactly where the info regarding her maiden name came from is virtually impossible to determine. The assumption in a long paragraph form baptismal record is that the info was provided by the father but that assumption is not necessarily accurate despite the wording found in the doc. The father or one of the witnesses or sponsors may have provided the info. On the other hand, the priest may simply have entered what he presumed was true from his knowledge of his parishioners. Since many priests hired someone who was literate to compose the final draft of the civil record from notes the priest had written while arranging for the actual baptism. Thus there are multiple points where incorrect info can enter the stream. The wording of the doc contains conventional phrases which describe the reporting of the birth, some of which may have been no more than a conventional fiction. An example would be the statement regarding the presenting of the child to the civil registrar. In reality since the priest was acting both as a religious functionary and as a civil registrar his actual contact with the child would have happened during the baptismal ceremony and not in the office. The bottom line is that the mother’s maiden name does not come from the first hand source, i.e. the mother, and there are many places from which incorrect info may derive. If one were to describe the status of the info regarding the maiden name of the mother in legal jargon one would have to categorize the info as hearsay at best. It can only be considered accurate if it can be shown to be backed up by other sources and I do not see that as a viable possibility.

Here follows the translation of the B&B of Maryanna Krawczyk.

Dave



G'day Dave

Thanks for the translation - gives me some extra family to search in order to determine the correct surname.

Yes, it is correct that there are no guarantees that I am on the right track with the possibility of a name change. But in order to confirm one way or another I will need to trace marriage and death records of all the children and the parents to at least determine one way or the other. Unfortunately in this case I am working from the known (marriage to Mateusz Oleyniczak) as Krawczyk to determine the surname - as I have various maiden names from Marriage and birth records (most relate to variations of her fathers' Christian name Norbert), due diligence will require confirmation of Aniela's parents records. The parents' marriage record is brief and doesn't give any surnames and the search for death records continues as they are not located in either Wrząca Wielka or Mąkoszyn parishes. I still think that there is a possibility they are one and the same family.

On a side note, it can happen anywhere. I am assisting my wife with a search of a relative in her family tree where the story goes that her GGF told her Great Uncle in about 1920 that this relative travelled to the US and stayed for 4 years with the GGF's brother who was a steel magnate in Philadelphia. Last week I traced this relative (daughter of the GGF's sister) and was able to locate her travel to the US from Australia, however, she travelled to Montana (1907) and stayed with her relative from her fathers' side, who was a Carpenter. The 1910 US Census interestingly has her listed as the wife of this relative with one child - there is no record of the birth of this child in the Australia (as recorded on the census). So this whole story is one "Furphy" after another. So now it is down to a search to determine the relationship of this new unknown relative and finding out how much of the census is true.

Fun and games.

Cheers
Ted
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TedMack



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:50 am      Post subject: Latin Record Translation
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G'day Dave

I have these 2 B&B records from Wrząca Wielka parish - still delving into the Klimczak and Krawczyk (Belkowski) families. If you can translate when time permits please. Both on the same page.

Cheers
Ted



B&B Adrian Klimczak 1789 - record 37 (crop).jpg
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