dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2634
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Katarzyna Brytan - birth 1791
| Blue wrote: | Hi Dave.
Thank you for the explanation about the children as well as the burials.
I have come across an older baptism record, which is slightly different to the other baptism records I have seen. This baptism record only has one date (which I am assuming is the baptism date rather than the birth date)? I am also guessing that children would have been baptised within one or two days of their birth?
I read the record as:
[Parish: Huta Krzeszowska]
Page: 20-21
[Year]: 1791
Nr. Domus = House Number: 88 [I am guessing the house number is not a street number; but a church reference number?]
Mensis ie [?] = Month [and] day: 3 November
Nomen = Name: Catharina = Katarzyna
Religio Catholica Acatholica = Catholic or not: Catholic
Sexus Puer Puella = Boy or girl: girl
Illegitimi Legitimi Thori = illegitimate or legitimate status [?]: legitimate
Parentes parens = father: Michael Brytan parens = Michal Brytan, father
Parentes mater = mother: Lucia ex Jozwik nata mater = Lucja, maiden name Jozwik, mother
Patrini nomen conditio = Name and occupation of sponsors: Martinus Serafin X villanus; Sophia Jozwiczka X villana = are the sponsors peasant farmers ? |
Hi blue,
One reason that this record is different from what you’ve seen in the past is that the records you posted in the past were from places within the German Partition and this one is from the Austrian Partition (Galicia). During the First Partition of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1772 Austria took much of the southern lands of the Commonwealth. Within a few years the Austrian civil authorities set up a system of civil registration in the Latin language. In the German Partition civil records were simply transcripts of the parish registers. The setup was a bit different in the Austrian Partition. The civil authorities determined the format of the records (the columnar format) early on. Some of the data to be entered was really of import to the civil authorities and not really to the ecclesiastical authorities. In your record, for example, the house number was a civil thing. You are correct that it is not a street number but it is neither sort of church reference number. It was just a way in which houses in a village were referenced. The single date is probably the date of baptism, which also would have been the date of civil registration. Baptisms usually took place shortly after birth and sometimes on the day of birth. Poles celebrated a person’s name day rather than the day of birth. The child was given the name Katarzyna and she was baptized in November so it is likely that her name day was the Feast of Catherine of Aexandria (25 Nov.)
Here follow corrections/additions to your transcription and translation.
Dave
[Parish: Huta Krzeszowska]
Page: 20-21
[Year]: 1791
Nr. Domus = House Number: 88 (Cf. Above for explanation)
Mensis = Month November; (D)ie 3tia (tertia)= the 3rd day of November
Nr. Domus = House Number: 88
Nomen = Name: Catharina = Katarzyna
Religio Catholica Acatholica* = Catholic or Non-Catholic:* Catholic checked
Sexus Puer Puella = Boy or girl: girl checked
Illegitimi Legitimi Thori = Of an illegitimate or legitimate bed: legitimate checked
Parentes parens = father: Michael Brytan parens = Michal Brytan, father
Parentes mater = mother: Lucia ex Jozwik nata mater = Lucja, maiden name Jozwik, mother
Patrini nomen conditio = Name and status/condition/occupation of sponsors: Martinus Serafin X villanus; Sophia Jozwiczka X villana = Marcin Serafin X**, a villager; Sophia Jozwik X**, a villager
Notes: *Acatholica/Non-Catholic: In linguistic terminology the first letter of the word Acatholica is known as an Alpha Privative. In Greek grammar the letter alpha (or alpha nu (αν)- before vowels) is a negative or privative prefix. It is found in Latin and English words derived from Greek. Here the Greek word καθολικός (Catholic) becomes ακαθολικός (Not Catholic/Non-Catholic). Some examples of English words derived from Greek which use an Alpha Privative are atheist, agnostic, and anaesthetic (alpha nu).
**The X stands for the individual’s mark as if that person actually signed the register.
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:09 am
Post subject:
Hi,
Is it correct that Latin acts with given name Adalbertum - actual Polish name translation is Wojciech?
I have seen it multiple times in indexed metrics materials.
Thanks in advance for letting me know.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2634
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:48 am
Post subject:
| Mvpr7 wrote: | Hi,
Is it correct that Latin acts with given name Adalbertum - actual Polish name translation is Wojciech?
I have seen it multiple times in indexed metrics materials.
Thanks in advance for letting me know. |
Hi,
The short answer is that it is correct that the Latin name about which are asking in Polish is Wojciech. However, that is only a part of the story. Nouns in both Latin and in Polish are inflected, which means that how a noun is used in a sentence is determined by its case ending. Adalbertum in Latin is in the Accusative (Direct Object) Case so to be correctly translated into Polish it would have to be in the Polish Accusative Case which is Wojciecha. The changing of endings of nouns is called a Declension. Latin has 5 Declensions (or groups of nouns which take the same sets of endings). The cases in Latin are Nominative (Subject), Genitive (Possessive), Dative (Indirect Object), Accusative (Direct Object), Vocative (Direct Address), and Ablative (Prepositional Case). Polish has the same cases except that the Latin Ablative forms two cases in Polish (Locative & Instrumental). The good news is that in historical records only the Nominative, Genitive, Accusative, and Ablative are found with regularity. Latin dictionaries give both the Nominative and the Genitive Singular of a noun. The Genitive Singular tells you to which of the 5 Declensions the noun belongs.
For the noun in question the Nominative is Adalbertus; the Genitive is Adalberti; the Accusative is Adalbertum and the Ablative is Adalberto. The Genitive ending (i) tells you that Adalbertus is a Second Declension noun. The Polish Nominative is Wojciech, the Genitive is Wojciecha, the Accusative is Wojciecha and the Ablative aka Instrumental is Wojciechem.
Unless you are familiar with another inflected language this may sound very confusing. If English is your primary language perhaps this example may be helpful. English has the remnants of a declension in personal pronouns (although the remnants are disappearing in informal speech in the relative pronoun “who”). If we take the pronoun “he” as an example the Nominative is “he”; the Genitive is “his”; the Accusative is “him”. The changes in the pronoun are intuitive for a native speaker of English.
This is a rather long answer to a simple question but is important when attempting to understand what you may find in a record. The bottom line is that no matter the form you may encounter the record is talking about the same person—Wojciech.
Attached is a list which I compiled of Latin given names with their Polish and English versions. It is not an exhaustive list but only includes names I’ve encountered in Latin records. Perhaps you may find it useful.
Wishing you happy researching,
Dave
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:55 am
Post subject:
Wow, thank you for comprehensive answer. Still, a mystery to me what is relation among Adalbert and Wojciech as I cannot easily see any common root. But I take it as it is... thanks for the list, it may be very useful in my research.
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starshadowPO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 May 2013
Replies: 303
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:58 pm
Post subject:
Please help me translate this document from Unieck parish, dated 1769.
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HelpTheFamily
Joined: 12 Mar 2022
Replies: 113
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:29 pm
Post subject:
Can you please translate this?
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:03 pm
Post subject: Translation of 1789 Death Record
My ancestor's death record is at the bottom of the attachment. I am having difficulty transcribing and translating the words following the name Henricus Miller. I'm not sure if they describe his age, or occupation or cause of death or something related to his burial. The place of death is Słońsk, in the district of Radziejowski, province of Masovia. Thanks for your help.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2634
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:47 am
Post subject: Re: Translation of 1789 Death Record
| HMuller wrote: | | My ancestor's death record is at the bottom of the attachment. I am having difficulty transcribing and translating the words following the name Henricus Miller. I'm not sure if they describe his age, or occupation or cause of death or something related to his burial. The place of death is Słońsk, in the district of Radziejowski, province of Masovia. Thanks for your help. |
Hi HMuller,
The handwriting in the word which immediately follows the name of the deceased is illegible to me. The ending portion, which I’m able to read, appears to be “rator” or possibly “ratus”. Either way it is an occupational or status term. Words ending in “or” are usually occupational, e.g. agricultor (farmer). Words ending in “ratus” are status terms e.g. uxoratus (a married man). Unfortunately, without being able to determine the initial letters that is all I can tell you. The other entries on the page give the age of the deceased, but not this entry.
The record comes from the period between the 1st (1772) and the 2nd (1793) Partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Rzeczpostpolita Obojga Narodów). The Commonwealth had no formal system for keeping civil vital stats. Church (Catholic) records acted as substitutes. The Catholic Church did not mandate the keeping of baptism and marriage records until 1575 during the Council of Trent (the Catholic Church’s response to the Protestant Reformation). Burial records were not mandated until later. In the Commonwealth the mandates of the Council of Trent were implemented by the early 17th Century. Since the purpose of keeping Sacramental records was religious the records included a minimum of what we would call genealogical data. The shortest records were burial records since they had the least religious import.
Since the Commonwealth retained most of its territory until after the Second Partition in 1793 the geographical description you provided is confusing to me. Województwo Mazowiecki (province of Masovia) was comprised of the area surrounding Warsaw but the district/county of Radziejów (powiat Radziejowski) was farther to the west within województwo brzesko-kujawskie (province of Brześć Kujawski), where there are several villages with the name Słońsk. I just throw that out there in case you want to double check your geographical description.
Sorry that I can’t be of more help with the word following the name of your deceased relative. The transcription and translation follows. Attached is a map of the Commonwealth in 1789.
Wishing you continued success,
Dave
Transcription:
Left Margin: Słońsk
Body of Entry: Die 4 Martii 1789 obiit Henricus Miller ????ratus (or ????rator) de Słońsk sepultus ibidem.
Translation:
Left Margin: Słońsk
Body of Entry
On the 4th day of March 1789 Henryk(Polish)/Heinrich(German)/Henry Miller (Meuller), ????? from Słońsk died, (and was) buried in the same place.
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Translation of 1789 Death Record
Hi Dave,
Thank you for attempting to decipher the word(s). At least you were able to give me the two possible word endings and what they might have revealed. Next time I visit my FHC, I will scrutinize other death and marriage records from that church book for a clearer example.
Ah, those pesky partitions and provinces. I admit to being lazy and using the location from his grandson’s 1818 marriage record: “Gminy Słońskiey, Powiatu Radziejowskiego, w Woiewodztwie Mazowieckim”, meaning “Township (of) Słońsk, District (of) Radziejowski, in Province (of) Masovia”. I should have realized the maps changed in 1815. The present day location is Słońsk Dolny, Aleksandrów County, Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship; 52°54'N 18°46’E. I.e., upstream Vistula, about 7 miles southeast of Toruń. On the 1789 map you provided, this location would have been in woj. inowrocławskie. Lesson learned: If I want to describe the location of a place in Poland, I need to know what time it is.
Best,
Hal
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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:04 pm
Post subject:
Could you please tell me the cause of death for Martinus Slomian (line 1 ? Thank you. wuness
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2634
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:07 am
Post subject:
| wuness wrote: | | Could you please tell me the cause of death for Martinus Slomian (line 1? Thank you. wuness |
Hi wuness,
As you know, being able to determine the letters in a handwritten word is a sine qua non to being able to read an entry. The scribe who wrote the death record is way out of the running for any penmanship award. I can only answer 50% of your question because I’m only certain of the second word in the entry—cerebri, which is the Genitive Singular of cerebrum, cerebri, n. the brain. I’m only able to determine the first two and the last two letters of the first word (in & io). The all important middle letters are totally unclear to me. I walked away from the text and revisited the entry several times in the hope that the mystery letters would reveal themselves, but no such luck. The child died of an injury or a disease of the brain. Unfortunately, I can’t be more specific than that. I can tell you that the word is either the Nominative Singular of a 3rd Declension noun or the Ablative Singular of a 2nd Declension noun. My gut feeling based on the following entry is that it is the Nominative Singular of a 3rd Declension noun. As a side note, although Latin has 5 declensions, the largest number of nouns (about 46%) belong to the 3rd Declension.
A good example of the scribe’s poor handwriting is found in the column “Conditio et Professio Patris”. Both entries are the same, inquilinus, but if one were not familiar with the vocabulary used in that column, it seems to me that it would be difficult to see “inquilinus” in what is entered in the column. Since I’m not an expert in medical terminology and in 19th Century causes of death and diseases I’m not able to accurately guess at the first word.
Sorry that I can’t be of more help.
Dave
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:49 am
Post subject:
Dave: I had no idea a translation would be this involved. Thank you for your efforts. Seven years after Martin died, in 1878, two of his sisters also died at the ages of 1 and 3. I'm intrigued. I will send their obits later for translation. wuness
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TedMack
Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Replies: 420
Location: Sydney, AustraliaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:20 am
Post subject: Latin Record Translation
G'day Dave
Can you please translate the attached Latin records - 2 from Wrząca Wielka parish and the other 2 from Mąkoszyn parish. I've also included a Polish record for one of the deaths that gives the fathers first name as Wojciech while the Latin record lists it as Norbert. The 2 records from Mąkoszyn parish are for further investigation when I have the time and inclination to continue to confirm if they are relatives.
As usual when time permits.
Cheers
Ted
PS. I have no idea what the Christian name is for the first record.
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shecallsmemister
Joined: 02 Feb 2023
Replies: 8
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:24 pm
Post subject:
Hello Dave -
Aleksander suggested I reach out to you for assistance in translating the full texts of the two attached marriage records:
Simon Manuszewski / Anna Paradowska (first record entry in September)
Ambrosius Manuszewski / Julianna Zyglara (left column, 2nd entry from bottom)
Thank you in advance for all of your assistance!
Ken
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2634
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:13 am
Post subject:
| shecallsmemister wrote: | Hello Dave -
Aleksander suggested I reach out to you for assistance in translating the full texts of the two attached marriage records:
Simon Manuszewski / Anna Paradowska (first record entry in September)
Ambrosius Manuszewski / Julianna Zyglara (left column, 2nd entry from bottom)
Thank you in advance for all of your assistance!
Ken |
Hi Ken,
I’m not really sure how a full translation of the 1788 marriage record should be handled. The text is long and mostly deals with the ecclesiastical legalities the priest fulfilled both prior to and during the marriage ceremony. The part which I have not decided how to handle is that the legalities are really abbreviations/summaries of the rules followed. If you look at the Latin text you can see that “etc.” repeats frequently. The “etc.” usually follows only one word. The first example appears in the fifth line after the word “September” and it reads “praemissis etc”. I know very well how the full text would read and how it should be translated. It would read “praemissis tribus bannis nulloque impedimento detecto” and translates as “After the three announcements of the banns had been proclaimed beforehand and since no impediment had been detected” but the text as written would be translated “After had been proclaimed etc.” My quandary is should the text be translated strictly as written or should the understood part of the “etc.” be included. I would appreciate your thoughts on that matter. Since the legalities are of no real genealogical import do you want them included in the translation?
The translation of the 1819 record follows.
Dave
1819 Marriage Record Translation:
Left Margin: (Village of) Neophania*
Body of Entry: After the banns had been proclaimed beforehand, on the 16th of November, I, Heronim Ornass, joined together (in matrimony) Ambrozy Manuszewski, a bachelor, 26 years of age, with Julianna Zyglara, a maiden, 21 years of age. The witnesses (were) Franciszek Kaliszewski and Jan Kaliszewski from the same village.
Note: *My best estimation of the contemporary name of the location is Nowy Dwór.
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