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Luk_Bud



Joined: 13 Mar 2023
Replies: 8
Location: Iowa, United States

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Post Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:05 pm      Post subject: Full Translation Request - Katarzyna Budziński Birth/Baptism
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Hello,

I asked to have this record transcribed in the Polish Group at familysearch.org. The person who did the translation only picked out the specific parts that she thought related to the direct family, but I am wondering if some of the other folks on the record could be relations that don't share the same family name. The writing is in cursive so it is hard to read. She said it was in Russian with Polish names.

Here is what she transcribed :
Birth Record No. 157(158) (Scan No. 27 in genealogiawarchiwach.pl) Skrwilno Parish
Katarzyna Budzinska, born in Chrapon on the 22nd September 1875, christened on the 26th September 1875, daughter of Franciszek Budzinski, a farmer in Chrapon, 45 years old, and of his wife, Malgorzata Kapczynska (so written), 46 years old.

Here is the link to the original record :
https://www.genealogiawarchiwach.pl/#query.type=ALL&query.facetQuery.date=1875&query.city=Skrwilno&query.suggestion=false&query.thumbnails=false&query.facet=true&query.asc=false&query.sortMode=PUBLICATION&modal=294273710&personTree=false&goComments=false&searcher=big&query.query

I have also attached the downloaded image for convenience.

Her record is the second one on the right page of the book. I can find her father's name, but not her name in the record. Though I spent quite a bit of time looking for it. Also, the curious thing is the woman who did the translation provided a different maiden name for her mother than what was listed on her older sister's marriage certificate which was filed in Chicago, IL. The name on the marriage license is Jagodzinska. I share DNA with the 2nd great-granddaughter of her sister. Could we be making an assumption based on the same 2nd great-grandfather's name and correct location? Could there have been 2 women named Małgorzata who were married to Franciszek Budzinski?

I would appreciate knowing the exact translation and any insight to my questions. Every little detail may help me in my quest.

My quest is to eliminate "known" relatives to find my unknown grandfather. Any family who might have known that my mother was raised by her aunt, the older sister of her biological mother have passed. There were a lot of sibling to my biological grandmother, but they were not very prolific.



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Patricia
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:26 am      Post subject: Re: Full Translation Request - Katarzyna Budziński Birth/Bap
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Luk_Bud wrote:
Hello,

I asked to have this record transcribed in the Polish Group at familysearch.org. The person who did the translation only picked out the specific parts that she thought related to the direct family, but I am wondering if some of the other folks on the record could be relations that don't share the same family name. The writing is in cursive so it is hard to read. She said it was in Russian with Polish names.

Here is what she transcribed :
Birth Record No. 157(158) (Scan No. 27 in genealogiawarchiwach.pl) Skrwilno Parish
Katarzyna Budzinska, born in Chrapon on the 22nd September 1875, christened on the 26th September 1875, daughter of Franciszek Budzinski, a farmer in Chrapon, 45 years old, and of his wife, Malgorzata Kapczynska (so written), 46 years old.

Here is the link to the original record :
https://www.genealogiawarchiwach.pl/#query.type=ALL&query.facetQuery.date=1875&query.city=Skrwilno&query.suggestion=false&query.thumbnails=false&query.facet=true&query.asc=false&query.sortMode=PUBLICATION&modal=294273710&personTree=false&goComments=false&searcher=big&query.query

I have also attached the downloaded image for convenience.

Her record is the second one on the right page of the book. I can find her father's name, but not her name in the record. Though I spent quite a bit of time looking for it. Also, the curious thing is the woman who did the translation provided a different maiden name for her mother than what was listed on her older sister's marriage certificate which was filed in Chicago, IL. The name on the marriage license is Jagodzinska. I share DNA with the 2nd great-granddaughter of her sister. Could we be making an assumption based on the same 2nd great-grandfather's name and correct location? Could there have been 2 women named Małgorzata who were married to Franciszek Budzinski?

I would appreciate knowing the exact translation and any insight to my questions. Every little detail may help me in my quest.

My quest is to eliminate "known" relatives to find my unknown grandfather. Any family who might have known that my mother was raised by her aunt, the older sister of her biological mother have passed. There were a lot of sibling to my biological grandmother, but they were not very prolific.


Hello Patricia,
The person doing the translation picked out the specific parts that related to the direct family. It is quite common for records written in Russian to have Polish names in parentheses. So the translation was correct.

That's something I wonder about. It is the maiden name of the child's mother. In parentheses the priest wrote Kapczyńska, but when I read the Russian version of that surname I would say Kempczyńska.
But the last name is definitely not Jagodzinska, which you mentioned earlier. Do you have other documents where this could be checked?

Here is my translation:
No.157
Chrapoń
It happened in Skrwilno, on September 26th, 1875, at 2 p.m.
Appeared Franciszek Budziński, a farmer living in Chrapoń, 45 years old, in the presence of Jan Biros(?) 45 years old and Michał Czarnecki 50 years old, both farmers from Chrapoń, and presented Us a female infant child, informing that the child was born in Chrapoń, 22nd September, 1875 at 2 a.m., to his legal wife, Małgorzata nee Kapczyńska, 45 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today, the child was given the name Katarzyna, and the godparents were: Tomasz Czajkowski and Rozalia Pesta.
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses and was signed by Us.
The administrator of the Skrwilno parish, serving as Civil Registrar: Priest Łukasz Grabowski.

Best regards, Barb
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Luk_Bud



Joined: 13 Mar 2023
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Location: Iowa, United States

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Post Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:24 pm      Post subject: Katarzyna Budziński
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Barb,

Thank you so much for the full translation.

Is that a normal practice to not name the baby until the baptism, or is that just the way they record the baptismal event?

Best Wishes,

Patricia
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:44 pm      Post subject: Re: Katarzyna Budziński
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Luk_Bud wrote:
Barb,

Thank you so much for the full translation.

Is that a normal practice to not name the baby until the baptism, or is that just the way they record the baptismal event?

Best Wishes,

Patricia


Hi Patricia,
The child's first name is registered for the first time at baptism, either in the church or the state office (or both places).
I've looked at the surnames Budzinski, Kapczynski, Kempczynski at Genetyka. You asked if it could be possible that Franciszek was married to 2 Malgorzata? Theoretically-yes. When Katarzyna was born in 1875, both Franciszek and Malgorzata were 45 years old. He could have been married first to Malgorzata Jagodzinska, and later to Malgorzata Kapczynska / Kempczynska. But I can't find either the marriage records or the death records.
-Barbara
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Luk_Bud



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Location: Iowa, United States

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Post Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:41 pm      Post subject: Budzinski
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Thank you very much for the extra information and your effort to try to find marriage records. Being a farmer one would think they stayed in the same area, but perhaps they moved in after 1873 which is the date of Katarzyna's sister with the other mother's last name.
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:42 pm      Post subject: Re: Budzinski
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Luk_Bud wrote:
Thank you very much for the extra information and your effort to try to find marriage records. Being a farmer one would think they stayed in the same area, but perhaps they moved in after 1873 which is the date of Katarzyna's sister with the other mother's last name.



Patricia, I have an interesting lead. I will write tomorrow.

-Barb
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TedMack



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Location: Sydney, Australia

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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:01 am      Post subject: Re: Katarzyna Budziński
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BarbOslo wrote:
Luk_Bud wrote:
Barb,

Thank you so much for the full translation.

Is that a normal practice to not name the baby until the baptism, or is that just the way they record the baptismal event?

Best Wishes,

Patricia


Hi Patricia,
The child's first name is registered for the first time at baptism, either in the church or the state office (or both places).
I've looked at the surnames Budzinski, Kapczynski, Kempczynski at Genetyka. You asked if it could be possible that Franciszek was married to 2 Malgorzata? Theoretically-yes. When Katarzyna was born in 1875, both Franciszek and Malgorzata were 45 years old. He could have been married first to Malgorzata Jagodzinska, and later to Malgorzata Kapczynska / Kempczynska. But I can't find either the marriage records or the death records.
-Barbara



G'day Barbara and Patricia

I read these posts and had a look on Geneteka and found these records - not sure if they relate to the current search.

Cheers
Ted



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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:31 am      Post subject: Re: Budzinski
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BarbOslo wrote:
Luk_Bud wrote:
Thank you very much for the extra information and your effort to try to find marriage records. Being a farmer one would think they stayed in the same area, but perhaps they moved in after 1873 which is the date of Katarzyna's sister with the other mother's last name.



Patricia, I have an interesting lead. I will write tomorrow.

-Barb


Hi Patricia,
I found Katarzyna's other siblings. They were born / died in Chrapoń parish Skrwilno. In these records, the child's mother's surname was Kępkowska / Kempkowska. In the Polish language, the sound "ę" is almost similar to "em", so the priest could write either the first or the second (which he heard).
The children of Franciszek and Małgorzata:
believe that the first child was born in the parish of Gójsk
10.10.1863 – Franciszek, mother Kempkowska
25.09.1866 – Ewa, mother Kępkowska
19.02.1870 - Antoni, died 13.03.1870, mother Kępkowska
22.09.1875 – Katarzyna, mother Kempczyńska

Interestingly, the ages of parents are given in these records.
1863 - Franciszek was 30 (ab.1833) Małgorzata was 20 (ab.1843)
1866 - Franciszek was 30 (ab. 1836) Małgorzata was 25 (ab. 1841)
1870 - Franciszek was 40 (ab. 1830) Małgorzata was 30 (ab. 1840)
1875 - Franciszek was 45 (ab. 1830) Małgorzata was 45 (ab. 1830)

I think I found the wedding record too.
1858 - act no.1 from the parish of Gójsk (wedding took place in the village of Dziki Bór). See map.
Franciszek Budziński (parents: Marcin and Agnieszka Nasielska) and Małgorzata Kępkowska (parents: Maciej and Magdalena Jabłońska).
The age given in the marriage record is the most important. I trust it the most.

Franciszek's parents, Marcin Budziński and Agnieszka Nasielska married in 1825 in the parish of Skrwilno.
-Barb
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:49 am      Post subject: Re: Budzinski
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BarbOslo wrote:
BarbOslo wrote:
Luk_Bud wrote:
Thank you very much for the extra information and your effort to try to find marriage records. Being a farmer one would think they stayed in the same area, but perhaps they moved in after 1873 which is the date of Katarzyna's sister with the other mother's last name.



Patricia, I have an interesting lead. I will write tomorrow.

-Barb


Hi Patricia,
I found Katarzyna's other siblings. They were born / died in Chrapoń parish Skrwilno. In these records, the child's mother's surname was Kępkowska / Kempkowska. In the Polish language, the sound "ę" is almost similar to "em", so the priest could write either the first or the second (which he heard).
The children of Franciszek and Małgorzata:
believe that the first child was born in the parish of Gójsk
10.10.1863 – Franciszek, mother Kempkowska
25.09.1866 – Ewa, mother Kępkowska
19.02.1870 - Antoni, died 13.03.1870, mother Kępkowska
22.09.1875 – Katarzyna, mother Kempczyńska

Interestingly, the ages of parents are given in these records.
1863 - Franciszek was 30 (ab.1833) Małgorzata was 20 (ab.1843)
1866 - Franciszek was 30 (ab. 1836) Małgorzata was 25 (ab. 1841)
1870 - Franciszek was 40 (ab. 1830) Małgorzata was 30 (ab. 1840)
1875 - Franciszek was 45 (ab. 1830) Małgorzata was 45 (ab. 1830)

I think I found the wedding record too.
1858 - act no.1 from the parish of Gójsk (wedding took place in the village of Dziki Bór). See map.
Franciszek Budziński (parents: Marcin and Agnieszka Nasielska) and Małgorzata Kępkowska (parents: Maciej and Magdalena Jabłońska).
The age given in the marriage record is the most important. I trust it the most.

Franciszek's parents, Marcin Budziński and Agnieszka Nasielska married in 1825 in the parish of Skrwilno.
-Barb



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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:32 am      Post subject: records
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I have these records. Can send you by e-mail.
10.10.1863 – Franciszek
25.09.1866 – Ewa
19.02.1870 - Antoni, died 13.03.1870


Barbara
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Luk_Bud



Joined: 13 Mar 2023
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:39 pm      Post subject: Katarzyna Budziński - MUCH THANKS TO BARB & Ted
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Thank you so much Barb and Ted.

I would love to have the original records and translations. I think my email is published somewhere on this site, but jic it is [email protected]. I would also like to know where you found them, all on Geneteka? I used Ted's query and found Antoni's birth record and tried my hand at reading it using the Russian birth record aid from this site. I found the father's name, his name and his mother's name, but the rest I couldn't make out.

Curiously, I am related to Katarzyna's sister Marianna through shared DNA according to Ancestry.com. Our DNA relationship is 2nd-3rd Cousin on maternal side with 116 cM shared DNA for Marianna's 2nd great granddaughter. She spells her 2nd great grandmother's name Maryanna Budzienska (Russian form of Budzińska?). Maybe they aren't sisters as I assumed? Could be cousins? Found an entry for a Marianna Budzińska on Geneteka for 1871 with no parents listed. Maryanna's 2nd great granddaughter entered a birth date of 15 Jan 1873 born in Chrapoń, Żuromin, Masovia, Poland for Maryanna. She doesn't have any parents associated with Maryanna. The "hints" on Ancestry based on census record have her estimated DOB as 1870 & 1871, both census have her birth place as Russia.

Is there an online database that holds the National Archives for Płocku records.? That is what the "Z" location is for both the birth record of Maryanna and the marriage record for Franciszek and Małgorzata.

Thank you both so very much for all the time you put in researching this for me. I really appreciate your help.

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Patricia
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Luk_Bud



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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:54 pm      Post subject: Kępkowska - Kempczyńska - Kapczyńska
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Hi Barb,

I was just re-reading the listings of siblings and noticed the different spellings of Małgorzata's last name between Katarzyna's record and her siblings. Do you think this is all the same woman?

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Patricia
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:12 pm      Post subject: Re: Kępkowska - Kempczyńska - Kapczyńska
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Luk_Bud wrote:
Hi Barb,

I was just re-reading the listings of siblings and noticed the different spellings of Małgorzata's last name between Katarzyna's record and her siblings. Do you think this is all the same woman?


Yes, I am sure that Katarzyna (1875) is the sister of the others. Most people at that time could not read or write. The priest wrote what he heard. No one could check if it was correct.
B.
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BarbOslo
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:27 pm      Post subject: Re: Katarzyna Budziński - MUCH THANKS TO BARB & Ted
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Luk_Bud wrote:
Thank you so much Barb and Ted.

I would love to have the original records and translations. I think my email is published somewhere on this site, but jic it is [email protected]. I would also like to know where you found them, all on Geneteka? I used Ted's query and found Antoni's birth record and tried my hand at reading it using the Russian birth record aid from this site. I found the father's name, his name and his mother's name, but the rest I couldn't make out.

Curiously, I am related to Katarzyna's sister Marianna through shared DNA according to Ancestry.com. Our DNA relationship is 2nd-3rd Cousin on maternal side with 116 cM shared DNA for Marianna's 2nd great granddaughter. She spells her 2nd great grandmother's name Maryanna Budzienska (Russian form of Budzińska?). Maybe they aren't sisters as I assumed? Could be cousins? Found an entry for a Marianna Budzińska on Geneteka for 1871 with no parents listed. Maryanna's 2nd great granddaughter entered a birth date of 15 Jan 1873 born in Chrapoń, Żuromin, Masovia, Poland for Maryanna. She doesn't have any parents associated with Maryanna. The "hints" on Ancestry based on census record have her estimated DOB as 1870 & 1871, both census have her birth place as Russia.

Is there an online database that holds the National Archives for Płocku records.? That is what the "Z" location is for both the birth record of Maryanna and the marriage record for Franciszek and Małgorzata.

Thank you both so very much for all the time you put in researching this for me. I really appreciate your help.


Sent the original records by e-mail.
I don't know if Marianna, to whom you are related, is the sister of the others. You say that she was born in 1871. Marianna from Genetyka was born on 18 September. Her parents were Jan Budzinski and Franciszka.
Budzienska is not Russian form of Budzińska. Those last names are quite similar. The priest wrote what he heard.
Skrwilno was in the Russian-occupied part of Poland, therefore some wrote Russia.
B.
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Post Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:48 pm      Post subject: Translation
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No. 200 Chrapoń
It happened in the village of Skrwilno, on October 11, 1863, at 1 p.m. Appeared Franciszek Budziński, laborer from Chrapoń, 30 years old, in the presence of Wawrzyniec Piwowarski, a farmer, 45 years old and Jan Borus, 39 years old, both from Chrapoń, and presented Us a male infant child, informing that the child was born in Chrapoń, yesterday at 12 a.m., to his wife, Małgorzata nee Kempkowska, 20 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today by the priest Wincenty Fabęcki the child was given the name Franciszek and the godparents were: Andrzej Niegorski and Praxeda Budzińska.
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses and it was signed by Us only, because the declarant and the witlesses were illiterate.
Priest J. Zołnowski, the parish priest.


No. 213 Chrapoń
It happened in the village of Skrwilno, on September 30, 1866, at 1 p.m. Appeared Franciszek Budziński, laborer from Chrapoń, 30 years old, in the presence of Paweł Szczepański, 30 years old and Wojciech Kupela, 33 years old, both from Chrapoń, and presented Us a female infant child, informing that the child was born in Chrapoń, on the 25 day of the current month and year at 5 p.m., to his wife, Małgorzata nee Kępkowska, 25 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today by the priest Wincenty Fabęcki the child was given the name Ewa and the godparents were: Paweł Szczepański and Anna Slusarska.
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses and it was signed by Us only, because the declarant and the witlesses were illiterate.
Priest J. Zołnowski, the parish priest.


No. 44 Chrapoń
It happened in Skrwilno, on February 24, 1870, at 1 p.m. Appeared Franciszek Budziński, laborer from Chrapoń, 40 years old, in the presence of Mikołaj Tatkowski 48 years old and Józef Kaźmierczak, 40 years old, peasants from Chrapoń, and presented Us a male infant child, informing that the child was born in Chrapoń, on February 19 of the current year at 4 a.m., to his wife, Małgorzata nee Kępkowska, 30 years old.
At The Holy Baptism, held today the child was given the name Antoni and the godparents were: Mikołaj Tatkowski and Marianna Damżał.
This act was read to the declarant and the witnesses and it was signed by Us only, because the declarant and the witlesses were illiterate.
Priest Józef Zołnowski, the parish priest.


No. 32 Chrapoń
It happened in Skrwilno, on March 14, 1870, at 2 p.m. Appeared Józef Borus, peasant, 40 years old and Jakub Damżał, 30 years old, and they declared that yesterday, at 5 a.m., died Antoni Budziński, 3 weeks old, born and lived in Chrapoń, a son of Franciszek and Małgorzata Budziński. After convinced myself about the death of Antoni Budziński this act was read to the illiterate declarants and it was signed by Us only.
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