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C J Schmidt



Joined: 27 Mar 2022
Replies: 37
Location: Wisconsin, USA

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:01 pm      Post subject: How to Locate Civil Records 1800-1900
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How to locate civil records within the Polish archives in Poland?

I have a transcript of a civil record for the death of Anna Grams, wife of Jan Grams. I obtained this by using the LDS Family Search request form, while it was still available. Attached
It states: Gubernia (county) Warszawa, District Kaminski

I have the original Parish Kleczew record Akt 42 1849 from, Akta stanu cywilnego Parafii Rzymskokatolickiej Kleczew (pow. koniński) https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1828249 Attached
The original had a smear over her husband Jan Grams name, but was clarified when the priest went to make his copy at the district office. (The district office???)

And, also have a translation of that same death record, from Polish Origins here. Attached

I do know that some of the civil records for this region, are found on LDS Family Search listed with Radziejow church records, under the heading of "Dokumenty" See: Kościół rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Radziejów (Radziejów)
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/87227?availability=Family%20History%20Library

I have also found Radziejow church records at: GENEALOGIA W ARCHIWACH https://www.genealogiawarchiwach.pl/archiwum-front?locale=pl
Lots of church records for my Kocinski and Karasinski branch and translated by Polish Origins person(s).

But at the State Archives (https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/strona_glowna) nothing for Radziejow.
Attached

So back to the first record attached stating, Gubernia Warszawa, District Kaminski

Would I do a search at the State Archives for, Gubernia Warszawa, District Kaminski?
Gubernia Warszawa???
District Kaminski???



[/i]



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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2804
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:08 pm      Post subject: Re: How to Locate Civil Records 1800-1900
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C J Schmidt wrote:
How to locate civil records within the Polish archives in Poland?

I have a transcript of a civil record for the death of Anna Grams, wife of Jan Grams. I obtained this by using the LDS Family Search request form, while it was still available. Attached
It states: Gubernia (county) Warszawa, District Kaminski

I have the original Parish Kleczew record Akt 42 1849 from, Akta stanu cywilnego Parafii Rzymskokatolickiej Kleczew (pow. koniński) https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1828249 Attached
The original had a smear over her husband Jan Grams name, but was clarified when the priest went to make his copy at the district office. (The district office???)

And, also have a translation of that same death record, from Polish Origins here. Attached

I do know that some of the civil records for this region, are found on LDS Family Search listed with Radziejow church records, under the heading of "Dokumenty" See: Kościół rzymsko-katolicki. Parafja Radziejów (Radziejów)
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/87227?availability=Family%20History%20Library

I have also found Radziejow church records at: GENEALOGIA W ARCHIWACH https://www.genealogiawarchiwach.pl/archiwum-front?locale=pl
Lots of church records for my Kocinski and Karasinski branch and translated by Polish Origins person(s).

But at the State Archives (https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/strona_glowna) nothing for Radziejow.
Attached

So back to the first record attached stating, Gubernia Warszawa, District Kaminski

Would I do a search at the State Archives for, Gubernia Warszawa, District Kaminski?
Gubernia Warszawa???
District Kaminski???



[/i]


C.J.,

A gubierna was an administrative division of the Russian Empire. The gubierna Warszawska only existed in Partitioned Poland until Poland regained its independence following WWI. Searching for a Polish National Archive for Gubierna Warszawska or for any subsection of the gubierna is sort of like looking for the one eyed, one horned purple people eater of the 1958 song of the same name—doomed to failure because it does not exist.

Geneteka has a subsite which lists where available records may be found https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=6999

Also, if you look at the film notes connected to records n Family Search you will see where the records were filmed: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/87227?availability=Family%20History%20Library Since records for Radziejów were filmed at the Polish National Archive in Bydgoszcz and the Archive of the Diocese of Włocławek all the records held by those archives for Radziejów are found on the listed films and records not on the films are not to be found in the respective archives.

Sorry to rain on your parade but the search you imagine using will yield no results.

Wishing you success,

Dave
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Sophia
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Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1042

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:36 am      Post subject:
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Hi CJ and Dave,
Well, to be fair, the Massachusetts Bay Colony no longer exists, either, but I imagine there is probably some document in some archive in the UK with information about it. So I think CJ's question was a fair one.
If I am not mistaken, in the time frame you are looking at, CJ, the priest was responsible for both church records and civil records. In the church book, he recorded the details that were required by the church. Later, he made a "copy" of it, albeit with a different list of required details (fewer, it would seem, based on what you attached), to be submitted as the civil record. I am not picturing him going to this district office and writing in their books, but I do not know exactly how the process worked.
Best regards,
Sophia
P.S. Dave, that was a great song! We can always count on you to add that touch of humor.
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:52 am      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi CJ and Dave,
Well, to be fair, the Massachusetts Bay Colony no longer exists, either, but I imagine there is probably some document in some archive in the UK with information about it. So I think CJ's question was a fair one.
If I am not mistaken, in the time frame you are looking at, CJ, the priest was responsible for both church records and civil records. In the church book, he recorded the details that were required by the church. Later, he made a "copy" of it, albeit with a different list of required details (fewer, it would seem, based on what you attached), to be submitted as the civil record. I am not picturing him going to this district office and writing in their books, but I do not know exactly how the process worked.
Best regards,
Sophia
P.S. Dave, that was a great song! We can always count on you to add that touch of humor.


Hi Sophia,

The fickle fingers of fate have conspired in such a way that I actually have considerable experience researching vital records from Massachusetts Bay Colony. Two of my nephews through their mother, my late sister-in-law, have ancestors who lived in what was once Massachusetts Bay Colony, both in what today is the State of Massachusetts and what since 1820 has been the State of Maine. After I had given my nephews a family history book of our Polish ancestors they requested that I do the same sort of research on their mother’s side, which I did. Using the research I had done their aunt, their mother’s younger sister, joined the daughters of the American Revolution (DAR), based on the proof that an ancestor had taken part in the Penobscot Expedition during the Revolutionary War. The Penobscot Expedition was a joint Militia and Naval expedition from Massachusetts Bay Colony which turned out to be the USA’s worst naval disaster until Pearl Harbor. A bit of trivia—Paul Revere was an officer in the militia portion of the expedition and was court-martial-ed after the disastrous Expedition had ended. Anyway I am sure that the Colony sent reports back to England and those reports may still exist in some obscure archive. However vital stats records were maintained by town clerks and are housed in the clerk’s office and copies were probably not forwarded to England. Attached is an example of births from Gloucester, Essex, Massachusetts Colony for the year 1728.

In my opinion combining ecclesiastical and civil responsibilities is not really a good idea. Separation of church and state was a wise move on the part of our founders. A priest’s primary responsibility was to be a religious functionary. Being required to act as a civil functionary muddied the waters and blurred the distinction between his ecclesiastical and civil responsibilities. In what became the Russian partition civil records in the Napoleonic long paragraph format came into being with the foundation of the Duchy of Warsaw. The original plan was that civil records were to be kept by someone other than a parish priest. The problem was that in the small villages there was a small pool of candidates for the job since the literacy rate was very low. The result was that a compromise came into being where the parish pastor, who often was the only only person in the village who was literate, became the civil registrar. Following the Congress of Vienna in 1815 the same long paragraph format (although modified) continued to be used in the Russian partition. The records were kept in Polish until 1868 and then in Russian until the end of WWI. Although it is possible that transcripts of the records may have been sent to Russia it is unlikely that, if they survived, they continue to be held in an archive under the title of Gubierna Warszawska. Often Parish priests especially in large parishes hired someone who was literate in Polish and in Russian to make copies of the records to be submitted to the civil authorities. Attached are the preliminary notes and the copy in Russian of the birth and baptism of my great grandfather’s daughter Zofia from his second marriage. Those two documents form what I like to call the anatomy of the creation of a civil registration record. The Parish of Chodecz was large—188 B&Bs by August 3—and thus the civil copy was written by a scribe from notes provided by the parish priest and then signed by the pastor. The father of the child and the sponsors AKA the godparents came to the parish office and spoke with the parish priest to make arrangements for the baptism. The priest compiled that information as notes which the scribe then used to compose the civil registration. Notice that the parish priest was using a blank Latin baptismal register to enter the information in Polish for the scribe to use. The pastor of the parish did not actually write the civil registration document but only signed the completed copy. The pastor of the parish took care of compiling the information and signing the civil copy in the parish office rather than in a civil registration office, which at that time in the Russian partition did not exist. Both Radziejów and Chodecz were located within what at the time was Gubierna Warszawska and civil vital records were composed locally and the primary civil copies were stored locally in the parish archives. Additional copies were forwarded to other archives such as the archives of the diocese of Włocławek.

The image of the parish priest heading off to some registry office and entering information there seems to me to be very similar to Scrooge’s initial reaction to Jacob Marley’s ghost which he said may be the result of an undigested bit of beef or an under cooked potato—moving on from songs to movies for the analogy—my personal favorite version of A Christmas Carol is the 1951 Alastair Sim adaptation.

I hope you find the attachments and the above explanations interesting.

Hi ho, hi ho off to pull weeds I go,

Dave



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C J Schmidt



Joined: 27 Mar 2022
Replies: 37
Location: Wisconsin, USA

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:20 pm      Post subject:
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Hello Dave and Sophia,

Thank you both, for those responses.
Yes, Dave your response seems to be the case. Although it really doesn't explain the, Gubernia Warszawa, District Kaminski part very well. A good response none the less.

In addition, before entering the records at Szukaj w Archiwach for a location, the introductory page for each location includes this:
Example for Kleczew Parish:
Akta stanu cywilnego Parafii Rzymskokatolickiej Kleczew (pow. koniński)
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/zespol?p_p_id=Zespol&p_p_lifecycle=1&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_Zespol_javax.portlet.action=zmienWidok&_Zespol_id_zespolu=22123

"""Civil status registration system in force in 1808-1939/1945 in Polish lands that are part of the Duchy of Warsaw and then the Kingdom of Poland. Until 1808, there was no uniform marital status registration system in Poland, and the registration of facts from the lives of people was regulated by the appropriate religious (church) law. In the Catholic Church of the Roman rite, the registration was introduced in the 16th century. As a consequence of resolutions of the Council of Trent (in the 16th century, registration of baptisms and marriages and in the 17th century registration of deaths), and in Polish lands in the 17th century in 1808. The first in the Polish lands, based on the French Code of Napoleon, a registration system, which was supposed to be secular and independent of religion, and marital status acts were to be prepared and conducted by secular civil registers. In practice, incl. In the absence of educated persons, often the duties of civil status officials were entrusted to the clergy competent for the reasons for the fact that the fact was the premise to make a given act. These clergy were also competent in the scope of registration of civil status of people of non -Christian denominations, including the Mosaic religion. From 1826, based on the Civil Code of the Kingdom of Poland, in relation to Christian denominations, civil status files were combined with church records. Marital status was recorded by the superiors of individual parishes. The secular registration was maintained in relation to non -Christian religions (e.g. Judaism, Islam) and smaller Christian (e.g. Baptists), which mayors or appointed municipal officials celebrated......"""

Actually I have 2 records with the, Gubernia Warszawa, District Kaminski location on them. But none the less, both are found in the Sadlno (Radziejow) Dokumenty collection FHS.

I am Woman (Helen Reddy)
He me roar...
...Yes I am wise, but it is wisdom born of pain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WiED7UxcRw

Well, the last time I looked I still was..lol
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:01 am      Post subject:
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C J Schmidt wrote:
Hello Dave and Sophia,

Thank you both, for those responses.
Yes, Dave your response seems to be the case. Although it really doesn't explain the, Gubernia Warszawa, District Kaminski part very well. A good response none the less.

In addition, before entering the records at Szukaj w Archiwach for a location, the introductory page for each location includes this:
Example for Kleczew Parish:
Akta stanu cywilnego Parafii Rzymskokatolickiej Kleczew (pow. koniński)
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/zespol?p_p_id=Zespol&p_p_lifecycle=1&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_Zespol_javax.portlet.action=zmienWidok&_Zespol_id_zespolu=22123

"""Civil status registration system in force in 1808-1939/1945 in Polish lands that are part of the Duchy of Warsaw and then the Kingdom of Poland. Until 1808, there was no uniform marital status registration system in Poland, and the registration of facts from the lives of people was regulated by the appropriate religious (church) law. In the Catholic Church of the Roman rite, the registration was introduced in the 16th century. As a consequence of resolutions of the Council of Trent (in the 16th century, registration of baptisms and marriages and in the 17th century registration of deaths), and in Polish lands in the 17th century in 1808. The first in the Polish lands, based on the French Code of Napoleon, a registration system, which was supposed to be secular and independent of religion, and marital status acts were to be prepared and conducted by secular civil registers. In practice, incl. In the absence of educated persons, often the duties of civil status officials were entrusted to the clergy competent for the reasons for the fact that the fact was the premise to make a given act. These clergy were also competent in the scope of registration of civil status of people of non -Christian denominations, including the Mosaic religion. From 1826, based on the Civil Code of the Kingdom of Poland, in relation to Christian denominations, civil status files were combined with church records. Marital status was recorded by the superiors of individual parishes. The secular registration was maintained in relation to non -Christian religions (e.g. Judaism, Islam) and smaller Christian (e.g. Baptists), which mayors or appointed municipal officials celebrated......"""

Actually I have 2 records with the, Gubernia Warszawa, District Kaminski location on them. But none the less, both are found in the Sadlno (Radziejow) Dokumenty collection FHS.

I am Woman (Helen Reddy)
He me roar...
...Yes I am wise, but it is wisdom born of pain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WiED7UxcRw

Well, the last time I looked I still was..lol


Hi C. J.,

In your original post I didn’t realize that you wanted to know the meaning of the terms gubierna and district. Here they are: Gubierna was a term used to describe an administrative entity. In Polish it is województwo which in English equals a province or in the USA, a state. A district in Polish is a powiat, which in English equals a county.

The person who included “Gubierna Warszawska, district Kaminski” did you a disservice by providing incorrect info. During the 19th Century Kleczew was in Gubierna Kaliska (Province of Kalisz) and powiat Słupecki (County of Słupca) just to the west of powiat Koniński (County of Konin). In contemporary Poland Kleczew is in województwo Wielkopolskie, powiat Koniński. District (powiat) Kaminski fits well the lyrics of “Return To Sender” sung by Elvis since it did not exist...”no such number, no such zone”.

The definitive source for geographical info about 19th Century Partitioned Poland is Słownik geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego i innych krajów słowiańskich (The Geographical Dictionary of the Kingdom of Poland and other Slavic Language Countries).The link to the entry for Kleczew: http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_IV/125 A list of the most commonly used abbreviations is found in Tom (Volume) 1, pages 13 & 14.

Attached are a map of the powiaty (plural of powiat) of the 19th Century and early 20th Century Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie) and detailed maps of powiat Słupecki and powiat Koniński.

I hope that the provides the info you were looking for regarding the terminology.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave



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C J Schmidt



Joined: 27 Mar 2022
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Location: Wisconsin, USA

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:58 pm      Post subject:
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Quote:
The definitive source for geographical info about 19th Century Partitioned Poland is Słownik geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego i innych krajów słowiańskich (The Geographical Dictionary of the Kingdom of Poland and other Slavic Language Countries).The link to the entry for Kleczew: http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_IV/125 A list of the most commonly used abbreviations is found in Tom (Volume) 1, pages 13 & 14.


Thank you very much for that link. Idea There very well could be a few cities in that source, I will need to look up.

Some of the Older maps I have seen for Poland actually state areas called the, "dismemberment" of Poland. What the Polish people endured for centuries, is an abomination of desolation. What the European communities, made up of the common man, are also, an abomination. The profiteers, it would seem, are the only true victors, through it all.

I recently found a similar map, dated 1863-1864, after the January uprising, in Poland. (Attached) Which shows those some state locations as the 1914 map, you have attached.

My grandfathers cousin baptized at the same parish in Polajewo as my grandfather, would state on some of his domestic records here in the U.S. that he was from Warszaw. Shocked What I have since learned is that it was a state and not just a city location.
Currently Polajewo is:
Quote:
Połajewo is a village in the administrative district of Gmina Piotrków Kujawski, within Radziejów County, Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship.

Fortunately, my grandfather did state on a couple of his civil records, Polajewo. Also, fortunately for me, both sides of my Maternal genealogy are all located within a approx. 30 mile radius of Polajewo. Very Happy



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