Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:15 am
Post subject:
| Brian wrote: | Hi,
I don't really need a translation of a German record; rather I'm hoping to find out about a name written on that record.
My 2nd great-grandmother was named Caroline Charlotte Albertine Loewe (born 19 Nov 1854 in Wussow, Pomerania). On her 16 Mar 1877 marriage record, Caroline's mother (born 17 Dec 1825 in Labuhn, Pomerania, assuming that her death record is accurate) has a name that seems to me to be spelled "Caroline Zcyck" or "Caroline Zcijck." Are either of those Polish names, or possible misspellings of actual Polish names?
In handwritten notes on the marriage record dated 30 Dec 1940, the name was changed to "Zoyk."
I asked the researcher who translated the record about that, and she said: "Why this change was made so late, I can also not say exactly. On the one hand, during the time of National Socialism, the whole of Germany was busy doing genealogical research, of course with the aim of proving one's 'Aryan ancestry'. This could also be supported by the fact that the name Loewe was changed to Löwe and especially that the rather foreign (perhaps Polish) sounding name of the bride's mother was somewhat 'smoothed out'. On the other hand, these findings and corrections could also have been made in the course of legal proceedings."
The name was later spelled "Zoyke" on her daughter Bertha's 20 Jun 1879 marriage record. And it's spelled "Zeuke" on Caroline's own death record from 20 Mar 1888.
Any idea what to make of this name? I've seen the names "Zeuke" (sometimes transcribed as "Zenke"), "Soike", "Soyk", etc. in other records online (not necessarily connected to my family), but I'm not sure what name I'm actually dealing with here. And I'm a bit skeptical of the handwritten notes from 63 years later. They change my 2nd great-grandfather's birthplace (from Krampkewitz to Kolburg -- meaning Kolberg?), as well as his mother's name (from Bertha Albertine Hass to Caroline Kickbusch -- and although my 3rd great-grandfather did marry a woman named Caroline Kieckbusch, it wasn't until 1881, a full 30 years after my 2nd great-grandfather was born; but I'll save my question about his mother for another day).
Thanks.
Caroline Loewe's marriage record is here: https://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,460197,3
Bertha Loewe's marriage record is here: https://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,460174,5
And Caroline Zeuke's death record is here: https://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,460195,8 |
Hello Brian,
Some thoughts regarding the names you mentioned:
Loewe or Löwe: I wouldn’t over emphasize this change. The German has what is called “Umlaute” (ä, ö, ü instead of ae, oe and ue) and as a rule of thumb, they are used - but sometimes not. Look at the word “Maerz” instead of “März” in Caroline Loewe's marriage record for example.
Zeuke and other spellings: It’s a general problem you will face in a lot of documents. The registrar (or the priest in the church book) heard a name how it was spoken and wrote it down. There was no other document available to check against and the informant could not check either, because he could not write. Hence you will find even simple looking names in a lot of spellings.
The comment on Caroline Loewe's marriage record: Knowing the problem of different spelling variants in their documents the civil registry offices introduced quite early a kind of quality management. By adding cross references to other documents or by correcting data according to other documents they tried to improve the data quality. Unfortunately this was not always successful. Hence you will find corrections to corrections – or just undetected errors.
Hope this helps,
Michael
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 3:52 pm
Post subject:
Thanks Michael. I guess I still don't know what to make of the original name written on Caroline Loewe's marriage record. I’m not sure that’s the word a registrar would write if he heard the sound “Zoyk.” The letter that comes after “Z” doesn’t look like his “o”s at all, or his "e"s, or any other vowel that he writes — it looks just like his other lowercase “c”s. Which leads me to believe that he intended to write a “c.”
Maybe someone had reasons for wanting to change the name later by claiming that “c” was supposed to be an “o.” But it sure doesn’t seem like he meant to write his “o”, or to represent the sound that an “o” would make. I obviously can’t know though; and anyway, no matter his intent, maybe he just got it wrong. I may have to let this one go. Thanks.
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 972
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:45 am
Post subject:
| Brian wrote: | Thanks Michael. I guess I still don't know what to make of the original name written on Caroline Loewe's marriage record. I’m not sure that’s the word a registrar would write if he heard the sound “Zoyk.” The letter that comes after “Z” doesn’t look like his “o”s at all, or his "e"s, or any other vowel that he writes — it looks just like his other lowercase “c”s. Which leads me to believe that he intended to write a “c.”
Maybe someone had reasons for wanting to change the name later by claiming that “c” was supposed to be an “o.” But it sure doesn’t seem like he meant to write his “o”, or to represent the sound that an “o” would make. I obviously can’t know though; and anyway, no matter his intent, maybe he just got it wrong. I may have to let this one go. Thanks. |
Hi Brian,
I found your question interesting.
Specifically, you want to know whether the names ZCYCK or ZCIJCK are Polish names, or possible misspellings of actual Polish names. I do not think so. There is no “zc” letter combination in Polish spelling.
You are trying to get at the root of your surname and see if its origins are Polish or German. Sometimes this is fairly easy to do. As an example, you can find Polish genealogy records for the surname SZNAJDER. Given the rules of Polish pronunciation, this name sounds almost identical to the German pronunciation of the surname SCHNEIDER. Knowing that the word Schneider means tailor in German, I would feel comfortable saying this name is rooted in the German language, and the spelling Sznajder is a Polish adaptation of it. You can use one of the features of Google Translate, the “listen” icon, to hear how the names sound.
This is a Polish pronunciation of Sznajder:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=pl&tl=en&text=Sznajder&op=translate
This is a German pronunciation of Schneider:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=de&tl=en&text=Schneider&op=translate
Looking at the various spellings you provided for your name, I think they are all trying to be approximately the same pronunciation. Using Polish spelling, “oj” and “oi” are a lot like English “oy” and German “eu.” Listen to these:
Polish pronunciation of Zojk:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=pl&tl=en&text=Zojk&op=translate
Polish pronunciation of Zoik:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=pl&tl=en&text=Zoik&op=translate
German pronunciation of Zeuk:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=de&tl=en&text=Zeuk&op=translate
The letters S and Z are distinctly different in Polish, and in German as well. However, they are still similar enough, in my opinion, that someone hearing a name spoken might write the name with either S or Z.
Polish pronunciation of Zojk and Sojk:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=pl&tl=en&text=Zojk%20i%20Sojk&op=translate
German pronunciation of Zeuk and Seuk:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=de&tl=en&text=Zeuk%20und%20Seuk&op=translate
Further, listen to how close G and K can sound. German pronunciation of Zeuk and Zeug:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=de&tl=en&text=Zeuk%20und%20Zeug&op=translate
There is a book by William Hoffman that delves into the linguistic roots of Polish surnames. One the contributors to the forum, Mike P., has a copy of this book and has been willing to look up names for people. Perhaps you could send him a message and ask if he will look for any Polish surnames that are similar to Zojk or Zoik. Here is one of his posts:
https://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?t=19074&highlight=hoffman
My guess is that the linguistic root of your name is not Polish, but German, possibly Zeug. Just my opinion.
Best regards,
Sophia
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Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:11 am
Post subject:
Thanks so much for this Sophia, I'll take all the opinions I can get on this one. I've never used Google Translate to listen to the pronunciations of names before, but that's a very helpful feature. Thanks also for steering me to Mike. I'm interested to see if he's able to come up with anything that might be similar to my name.
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MikeP
Joined: 27 Apr 2020
Replies: 16
Location: Houston, Texas, USABack to top |
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:41 pm
Post subject: Surname Zojk
| Brian wrote: | | Thanks so much for this Sophia, I'll take all the opinions I can get on this one. I've never used Google Translate to listen to the pronunciations of names before, but that's a very helpful feature. Thanks also for steering me to Mike. I'm interested to see if he's able to come up with anything that might be similar to my name. |
Hi Brian,
I checked Hoffman's "Polish Surnames" 3rd edition. Unfortunately, I did not find any surnames similar to Zojk or Zoik. Hoffman's book only lists surnames borne by 100+ Polish citizens in year 2002. This is a rare or very uncommon surname. On the Geneteka Website (https://www.geneteka.genealodzy.pl) I did a search for the surname Zojk. Only 71 entries in total. In the provinces of Pomorskie and Śląskie there are a total of 30 records of individuals with surnames Zoik, Zoyk, Zoyke, Zoyka, Zoike, Zojke, Zojka, Zoyka and Zoikin. I need advice on the next steps in this research topic.
Mike
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:55 am
Post subject:
Hi Mike,
This is more than enough, I appreciate you looking up that information. She was from Pomorskie but it looks like none of the six birth results on Geneteka are within a hundred years of my Caroline. And her parents weren’t married. Honestly, without any real confidence in the name or its origin I’m not sure it makes much sense to spend more effort on it. Thank you again.
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jmcenaney
Joined: 22 Dec 2020
Replies: 35
Location: Etna, NH, USABack to top |
Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:29 pm
Post subject: death record translation
Hi, I'm looking for a full translation of this death record, German to English. I'm unclear who it's for but I see a lot of familiar names (various Schalkenbachs, Weidig, Neusius). It's from a collection called Trier, Germany, Deaths, 1798-1950. Anna Maria Neusius is my 5th great grandmother. It's the top half of the page, entry #481. Thank you!
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Posted: Yesterday at 11:32 am
Post subject: Re: death record translation
| jmcenaney wrote: | | Hi, I'm looking for a full translation of this death record, German to English. I'm unclear who it's for but I see a lot of familiar names (various Schalkenbachs, Weidig, Neusius). It's from a collection called Trier, Germany, Deaths, 1798-1950. Anna Maria Neusius is my 5th great grandmother. It's the top half of the page, entry #481. Thank you! |
Hi,
Please find attached the translation:
No. 481 Death-Act
In the year 1823, on the 13th of the month of November at ten o’clock in the morning appeared in front of the registrar of Trier in the Canton of Trier in the Trier district
Jakob Weidig, residing in Trier, his profession a day laborer, old 39 years, husband and related with the deceased
and
Nikolaus Schalkenbach, residing in Trier, his profession a wigmaker [Perückenmacher], old 28 years, brother and related with the deceased
and declared,
that on the 12th of the month of November at 4 o’clock in the afternoon in Trier Magdalena Schalkenbach deceased. She was the wife of Jacob Weidig, born in Trier, old 28 years, residing in Trier, without profession, daughter of the deceased Peter Schalkenbach, his profession a merchant [Handelsmann], residing in Trier, and of Anna Maria Neusius.
[The short version of the following wording is: Read aloud, approved and signed. You will find the signatures of Nikolaus Schalkenbach and of the registrar, while Jacob Weidig declared not being able to write.]
Best regards,
Michael
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jmcenaney
Joined: 22 Dec 2020
Replies: 35
Location: Etna, NH, USABack to top |
Posted: Yesterday at 11:57 am
Post subject:
Thank you, Michael. I am so appreciative.
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