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megha879



Joined: 22 Dec 2023
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Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:47 pm      Post subject: Can anyone help with text on baptismal records?
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Hello,
I've managed to get images of baptismal records for my great-grandfather and some of his siblings. I'm not sure if the handwritten text is in Latin or Polish, but either way I cannot make out the handwriting for the life of me.

I'm specifically trying to make out the sections under Parentes: Patris and Matris, since they should list details about the childrens' parents' parents (my great-great-great grand parents).

I've included all of the siblings baptismal records as they should contain the same text and some may be easier to read than others. One of the records (Joannes) has a lot of little text because the child was considered illegitimate.
And the last line of all of the records that spans both the 'Patris' and 'Matris' cells, I believe, is the name of the priest doing the Baptism.

Also, does anyone know what Apost. after a name means? Andreas is listed Andrea Apost on his certificate.

Thanks for any assistance!

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Illegitimate child with additional text.
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Andreas Apost?
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j_lex



Joined: 06 Feb 2021
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Location: Buffalo, NY

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Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:47 pm      Post subject:
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Hello! I am just a hobbyist looking for answers as well, but I can make out some of the names in your documents. There are definitely well qualified folks on here to give you a full translation and provide further meaning. All of the records are in Latin, except the additional text on Joannes which is Polish.

It isn't much, but here's my reading of your records.

Andreas: Franciscus Guzy inquillius, filius Blazii et Mariam ae natae Mazur.
Marianna filia Mathaei Chachaj agric. et Catharinae natae Michalec.

Franciscus (Frank/Franciszek) tenant farmer, son of Blasius (Blaise/Błażej) and Maria (Mary/Marya) born Mazur.
Marianna (Maryann/Mary) daughter of Mathaeus (Matthew/Mateusz) Chachaj farmer and Catharina (Catherine/Katarzyna) born Michalec.

In Frank's baptism, the father Frank's occupation may be 'hort.' which I interpret as gardener.

I do not have any insight on the Apost. abbreviation. Hope this helps.

-j
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megha879



Joined: 22 Dec 2023
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Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:10 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you so much! That's fantastic!

Do you know if the Maria born Mazur and Catharina born Michaelec - mean Mazur and Michaelec were their maiden names?
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j_lex



Joined: 06 Feb 2021
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Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:22 am      Post subject:
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The first handful of times looking at records in other languages is a bit intimidating, but eventually you figure out the patterns and can pick out the key words.

Yes, that is my interpretation. I think I would be confident in that as a working hypothesis until someone else clarifies further.
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 6:54 am      Post subject: Re: Can anyone help with text on baptismal records?
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megha879 wrote:


Also, does anyone know what Apost. after a name means? Andreas is listed Andrea Apost on his certificate.

[/img]


Hi Megha879 and J_Lex,
Dave provides very thorough and informative answers to questions about Latin records. He might be working hard at prep for tomorrow's Wigilia, though, so I thought I might jump in here and point you to one of his responses to a question back in May 2022.
Here is the link:
https://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?p=60331&highlight=apostle#60331
Best regards,
Sophia
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:12 am      Post subject: Re: Can anyone help with text on baptismal records?
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megha879 wrote:

One of the records (Joannes) has a lot of little text because the child was considered illegitimate.



Hi again,

As J_Lex pointed out, this part of the record is written in Polish. It is an acknowledgement of paternity. This is what it says:

"Wyznaję przy[illegible] że jestem naturalnym ojcem tego dziecięcia."

The father signed, as well as "swiadkami" (witnesses).

This is followed by text in Latin, which essentially is referring to the marriage on 25 October 1882.

Best regards,
Sophia
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megha879



Joined: 22 Dec 2023
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2024 6:02 pm      Post subject: Re: Can anyone help with text on baptismal records?
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Thanks so much! Sorry I missed this over the holidays! That also gives me a date to look up a marriage.
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2024 9:37 am      Post subject: Re: Can anyone help with text on baptismal records?
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megha879 wrote:
Thanks so much! Sorry I missed this over the holidays! That also gives me a date to look up a marriage.


Hi Megha879 and J_Lex & Sophia,

Now that the 12th day of Christmas has passed and the Christmas season is officially over and since I am no longer suffering from sugar overload caused by an excess of Christmas cookies I read through the posts in this thread and what follows are my additions.

The child’s name was entered as Andrew the apostle which does not exactly mean that was his formal name. His name was simply Andrew/Andrzej. Apostle (Apost.) was added by the priest in order to specify the child’s name day which, of course, in Poland was the day celebrated rather than the child’s actual birthday. He was named after Andrew the Apostle whose feast day falls on November the 30th and thus that was his name day.

When reading records from Galicia it is important to keep in mind that although the registers were used as Parish sacramental registers they were designed by the Austrian government for its own civil purposes. Austria was a Catholic country and was the principal party in the Austro-Hungarian Empire which included more countries than Austria and Hungary. Since the Empire contained regions which each had their own vernacular the civil authorities needed a common language in which to record vital stats and thus settled upon Latin as that language. Latin, of course, had not been the vernacular of any ethnic group for centuries.

Nata or as it appears in its Genitive Singular form, natæ, means born and it is one of several ways to designate a woman’s maiden name in Latin.

Although the Austrian Empire emancipated the peasants from their feudal obligations in 1848 some of the old feudal terminology continued to be used to describe an individual’s social status or place in the hierarchy of peasantry. Two such words found in the records posted are gardener (hortulanus) and tenant (inquilinus). A gardener (hortulanus) owned his cottage and sufficient land for a garden and, perhaps, some farm animals but did not own farm fields. A tenant (inquilinus) did not own real property.

In the birth and baptism record of John/Jan the father’s acknowledgment of paternity appears in Polish since that was the language he understood and spoke. The notation then reverts to Latin and the text states that the child was legitimized through the marriage of his parents on 25 October 1882. The entry then provides you with a treasure map for the location of the marriage record. The map reads (v[ide] Lib[rum] copul[atorum] Tom[us] V pag[ina] 153) or in English: “see the Marriage Register, Volume V, page 153, which is where you will find the marriage entry.

In the future if you have any questions about Latin records please post your request in the Latin records translations thread of the Forum which is the location which I check regularly. I only read other threads occasionally if and when the spirit moves me.

Rumor volat...Since Sophia is perpetuating the rumor that I actually know something about the Latin language here is the straight dope on the lingo. You don’t need to know much Latin at all in order to translate or, better yet, to understand the columnar format of records from Galicia. As a Corollary, being able to understand the records does not mean that one can actually read Latin. Since the records follow the same format all that needs to be done is to pick out a few keywords and render them into English or, in the case of given names, into Polish. A few research aids which I’ve posted what seems like at least a hundred times in the past can help to make that task simple. Two of them are: Latin, Polish, English Given Names and Latin–English occupations. As j_lex pointed out, once you determine the pattern you should be able to find the important data contained in the records.

An additional clue for future research is found in the Polish statement acknowledging paternity. One of the witnesses is Józef Guzy, who quite likely is a relative of the father—perhaps a brother or an uncle or a cousin. Anyway it opens up possibilities for future research.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave
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Sophia
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:00 am      Post subject:
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Hi all,
Indeed, I am perpetuating the rumor that Dave knows something about Latin. I would call him a former teacher of the language, but since he continues to teach people here on the forum, that would be an inaccurate statement. (Nice to see you back, Dave!)
I will add a further rumor, that he may have something interesting to say regarding the notation on the baptism record that refers to the midwife.
Best of luck in your research Megha879,
Sophia
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:43 am      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi all,
Indeed, I am perpetuating the rumor that Dave knows something about Latin. I would call him a former teacher of the language, but since he continues to teach people here on the forum, that would be an inaccurate statement. (Nice to see you back, Dave!)
I will add a further rumor, that he may have something interesting to say regarding the notation on the baptism record that refers to the midwife.
Best of luck in your research Megha879,
Sophia


Hi Sophia,

The midwife entries only list the name of the midwife. The couple use the same midwife for three of the children and another midwife for the 4th. Nothing to comment on there.

If this were my family which I was researching, I would be much more interested in the sponsors for their child Józef (born in 1883). They are Józef Guzy and Anna Chachaj. My guess is that Józef Guzy is the same person who acted as witness for the declaration of paternity in the record of Jan Guzy (1882) and likely is the brother of Franciszek and I would guess that Anna Chachaj is the sister of Maryanna. I would also pay attention to the house numbers in the records in order to get a feel for the residence pattern of the couple.

For what they are worth those are my thoughts and in the ultimate analysis they are probably what Thomas Aquinas said about the tremendous volume of works he produced in his lifetime “They are all straw”. Tommy A was an extremely prolific author of Theological and Philosophical works who was really able to multitask. It was not unusual for him to be composing four books at the same time and dictating the text to four separate scribes at the same time in the same room. That is multitasking.

That’s all, Folks!

Dave
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megha879



Joined: 22 Dec 2023
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:02 am      Post subject:
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Quote:

Hi Sophia,

The midwife entries only list the name of the midwife. The couple use the same midwife for three of the children and another midwife for the 4th. Nothing to comment on there.

If this were my family which I was researching, I would be much more interested in the sponsors for their child Józef (born in 1883). They are Józef Guzy and Anna Chachaj. My guess is that Józef Guzy is the same person who acted as witness for the declaration of paternity in the record of Jan Guzy (1882) and likely is the brother of Franciszek and I would guess that Anna Chachaj is the sister of Maryanna. I would also pay attention to the house numbers in the records in order to get a feel for the residence pattern of the couple.

For what they are worth those are my thoughts and in the ultimate analysis they are probably what Thomas Aquinas said about the tremendous volume of works he produced in his lifetime “They are all straw”. Tommy A was an extremely prolific author of Theological and Philosophical works who was really able to multitask. It was not unusual for him to be composing four books at the same time and dictating the text to four separate scribes at the same time in the same room. That is multitasking.

That’s all, Folks!

Dave


Thanks so much, Dave and Sophia. That's really interesting information and gives me a good path to go down for research. I haven't done much on the generation of the family containing Franciscus and Józef, this is my first foray, so that will probably be next. If I have any further Latin questions, I'll be sure to put them in the correct forum category.

All the very best.
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