Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2024 11:00 am
Post subject: Help Translating/Identifying Woman's Maiden Name
Hi --
I'm revisiting some records from the mid-1700s to the early 1800s. What I have found is that during the 1700s are mutable "second names." In some cases, the second names are truly patronyms and not yet surnames in the sense that generations didn't inherit the second name along patrilineal lines.
My issue really revolves around the women's second names. I know there is no one size fits all, so I'm just looking for a general rule of thumb in the case of a 5x-great-grandmother Maryanna/Marianna (which may bring me to some a-ha! moment about her daughter-in-law too. IF not, I will start another thread.).
On the Marianna''s 1769 marriage record, she is identified as "Maryanna Stachowna." Her second name her seems to align with a family using Stachowiak as a patronym rather than a surname/maiden name in a more modern sense. I have three birth records including one for a Marianna Stachowiak who are the children of Stanisław Józefowicz, whose father is possibly a Jözef (still working that case out). I'm pretty confident about the relationships between these four people and the children's mother as Marianna's family of origin. (I've had to map out a lot of the village and some nearby places. Thank goodness these places have very small populations!)
On Maryanna's marriage record from 1769, the second name of Marianna's husband Błażej is a bit difficult to decipher, but appears to be Gruszak or Grzeszak. All seemed well and good at this point. Her maiden name does not appear on the children's birth or marriage records from the late 1700s. This is the case for almost all records in this parish from that time. About the time the couple marries, a handful of villagers (not all seemingly related -- at least closely) adopt a unique surname. These villagers, including my ancestors, attached this surname to them on all of their children's vital records from this point forward. (The surname only appears in the parish in this village starting at this time. Over time it spreads outside the parish.)
Most of Błażej and Maryanna's children married before 1808 or so, and their marriage records do not include their parents' names. One son marries in 1810. His marriage record identifies Błazej only by his first name (though the implication may have been that his surname is the same as his son's was often the case on birth records). It identifies Marianna as "Maryanna z Grzelakow Błażejowcy." Here are two snippets for context based on how I have deciphered the handwriting from that record:
| Quote: | "... przy Rodzicach dałą zostającz w asystencji Ojca Błażeja Gospodarza i Matki Marianny z Grzelaków Błażejowcy zamieszkałych w wsi Koszanowo ..."
"... Czego spica liśmy Akt w przyłmaśćy Błażeja liczącego lat Sześdziesiąt i Maryanny z Grzelakow Błażejowcy, lat pięcdziesiąt mający, Rodziców Zaslubienego ..." |
So now, finally, my question. Does the phrase "z Grzelaków" belong to:
a) Maryanna as in "Maryanna née Grzelak, wife of Błażej" or more literally "Maryanna from [the house of] the Grzelaks, wife of Błażej?"
b) Błażej as in "Marianna, wife of Błażej Grzelak"?
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1147
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Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2024 4:54 am
Post subject: Re: Help Translating/Identifying Woman's Maiden Name
| SPG wrote: | Hi --
I'm revisiting some records from the mid-1700s to the early 1800s. What I have found is that during the 1700s are mutable "second names." In some cases, the second names are truly patronyms and not yet surnames in the sense that generations didn't inherit the second name along patrilineal lines.
My issue really revolves around the women's second names. I know there is no one size fits all, so I'm just looking for a general rule of thumb in the case of a 5x-great-grandmother Maryanna/Marianna (which may bring me to some a-ha! moment about her daughter-in-law too. IF not, I will start another thread.).
On the Marianna''s 1769 marriage record, she is identified as "Maryanna Stachowna." Her second name her seems to align with a family using Stachowiak as a patronym rather than a surname/maiden name in a more modern sense. I have three birth records including one for a Marianna Stachowiak who are the children of Stanisław Józefowicz, whose father is possibly a Jözef (still working that case out). I'm pretty confident about the relationships between these four people and the children's mother as Marianna's family of origin. (I've had to map out a lot of the village and some nearby places. Thank goodness these places have very small populations!)
On Maryanna's marriage record from 1769, the second name of Marianna's husband Błażej is a bit difficult to decipher, but appears to be Gruszak or Grzeszak. All seemed well and good at this point. Her maiden name does not appear on the children's birth or marriage records from the late 1700s. This is the case for almost all records in this parish from that time. About the time the couple marries, a handful of villagers (not all seemingly related -- at least closely) adopt a unique surname. These villagers, including my ancestors, attached this surname to them on all of their children's vital records from this point forward. (The surname only appears in the parish in this village starting at this time. Over time it spreads outside the parish.)
Most of Błażej and Maryanna's children married before 1808 or so, and their marriage records do not include their parents' names. One son marries in 1810. His marriage record identifies Błazej only by his first name (though the implication may have been that his surname is the same as his son's was often the case on birth records). It identifies Marianna as "Maryanna z Grzelakow Błażejowcy." Here are two snippets for context based on how I have deciphered the handwriting from that record:
| Quote: | "... przy Rodzicach dałą zostającz w asystencji Ojca Błażeja Gospodarza i Matki Marianny z Grzelaków Błażejowcy zamieszkałych w wsi Koszanowo ..."
"... Czego spica liśmy Akt w przyłmaśćy Błażeja liczącego lat Sześdziesiąt i Maryanny z Grzelakow Błażejowcy, lat pięcdziesiąt mający, Rodziców Zaslubienego ..." |
So now, finally, my question. Does the phrase "z Grzelaków" belong to:
a) Maryanna as in "Maryanna née Grzelak, wife of Błażej" or more literally "Maryanna from [the house of] the Grzelaks, wife of Błażej?"
b) Błażej as in "Marianna, wife of Błażej Grzelak"? |
Hi SPG,
I read it the way you have presented it in choice A. The surname Grzelak belonged to Maryanna, not to Błażej.
It would be interesting if others would add to this thread.
Regards,
Sophia
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Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2024 10:26 am
Post subject:
Thank you for responding. For years I thought that Grzelak belonged to Maryanna, but I have become less convinced over time. I'm just confused by the grammar in the text. Other mothers, when mentioned, do not have this "format" in the same marriage registry book, that is, there is no reference back to the husband following the supposed maiden name.
I should also note that in the indices for the early parish records up until about 1800, individuals are listed "bez nazwisko" unless the family has a stable surname. However, when you look into the corresponding records, you'll find several of the fathers (especially as time moves forward) have a second name that are may truly be a patronym or occupation versus a surname in some cases. Of course, I could be overthinking this, but it is difficult to trace any so-called surname as indexed by modern transcribers back through the 1600-1700s at least in this parish.
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