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dnowicki
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Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 11:59 pm Post subject:

mcdonald0517 wrote:

Thank you once again, Dave. Not only do you answer my questions, but you always give so much more. Yes, as I switch among all the branches of my family in different locations of Poland, I sometimes forget to shift my brain for the correct context of the records I am viewing. I really appreciate your explanation of civil / sacramental record keeping and how they overlapped and were different in each partition. It's a lot to remember and track - definitely muddy! I always learn from you...

Your explanations did provide me with some inferences that were helpful in my placing these records in my tree. When I get back this far, the information gets less specific and it is more like triangulating clues for the best possible theory of how the pieces fit together. It's a constant work in process as new documents and clues arise.

I am posting again for some help. The attached 1728 baptismal record is for Filip Jakub Radzyminski. I also included the entry for this record found in the summary index. I have three questions:

1. Is this one male child that was given two names: Filip and Jakub, or are these 2 infants?
2. If one child and two names, was it more customary at this time for a person to use the first name, or did they sometimes go by the second name? I am wondering if this person could have never used Filip and only used Jakub...
3. I want to confirm as much as possible the surname of the mother. Geneteka translates it as Lipowska, and I can see it was written in after the fact by someone in the actual baptism record. However, when I look at the mother's surname in the index entry, it doesn't look like Lipowska or Radzyminska... it looks like something else.. or just bad handwriting. what do you see?

Grateful for your assistance,
Cynthia

Cynthia,

It seemed to me that the easiest and quickest way to answer your questions would be to copy them and answer them in order. So here goes…

1. Is this one male child that was given two names: Filip and Jakub, or are these 2 infants?

Everything indicates that it is one child with two names. All the case endings of the pertinent nouns are singular, e.g. filium, the Accusative Singular of the Masculine noun filius, filii, son. Sometimes a priest made it doubly clear by adding the words “bis nomina” (two names) but that is not necessary. You can take it to the bank that it is only one child.

2. If one child and two names, was it more customary at this time for a person to use the first name, or did they sometimes go by the second name? I am wondering if this person could have never used Filip and only used Jakub…

A clue about the two names lies in the date of Baptism, April 25. The Feast of the Apostles Philip and James (Jacob) is May 3. The two names point to his Name Day, which, of course, was the important day to be observed. It is possible that he only used Jakub. Among the peasantry second names we usually added by the priests doing the baptizing and the parents and certainly the child himself may not have been aware of the second name or it’s significance. A sibling of one of my direct ancestors from the first half of the 18th century was baptized with the name Juliana de Falco. I doubt that she was ever aware of the de Falco part. All it did was specify the Julianna who was her Patron Saint. With Szlachta/Gentry there is an additional consideration. Based on the records you have posted it appears that the family was either partial owners or leaseholders of the village of Zagdzewo. The family also appears to have been rather large with a number of brothers, cousins, aunts, uncles etc. who shared the same last name. Sometimes when several contemporaries shared the same given name they would use either the middle name or a nickname in order to distinguish themselves from each other. These are just possibilities. Your own research will determine how well and whether any of those possibilities fit.

3. I want to confirm as much as possible the surname of the mother. Geneteka translates it as Lipowska, and I can see it was written in after the fact by someone in the actual baptism record. However, when I look at the mother's surname in the index entry, it doesn't look like Lipowska or Radzyminska... it looks like something else.. or just bad handwriting. what do you see?

The additions to the record in lighter ink most probably were entered by the priest as he was proofreading what he had written. This opinion is based on the formation of letters which appear both in the body of the record and in the additions, He probably was not using a different color of ink but the technology of the time involved dipping a quill or a stylus into a container of ink/inkwell, something which usually resulted in different shades of ink based on how much was left on the quill or the stylus between dips. The index may have been written by the author of the entries or by someone else at a later date. Anyway you look at it, the index is much more prone to contain errors than the entries themselves. I would say that the maiden name is Lipowska and would disregard whatever you see in the index. This is the same method that scholars use when trying to determine which variants in various manuscripts are considered more reliable. The older the copy of the manuscript, the more weight which is given to the variants found there. This holds true for the works of classical antiquity such as the Aeneid of Virgil, the letters of Pliny the Younger or the Commentaries On The Gallic Wars of Caesar, etc. There are no ancient manuscripts that date from the time those works were composed and certainly are not in the handwriting of the author. The manuscripts generally date from centuries later. The same is true of copies of the Gospels. The oldest manuscript which contains the Gospels is the Codex Vaticanus which contains books of both the Old & New Testaments. It is written in Greek and dates from the mid–Fourth Century and has been in Vatican Library since before the Protestant Reformation. Of course, more recent discoveries such as the Dead Sea Scroll do contain older fragments of scriptural texts...But exegesis is a topic for another time and place.

I hope this answers your questions and provides a little more food for thought.

Dave

jajan

Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:46 am Post subject: Gierlinski Mar 1801 Brzostkow, Jarocin, Wielkopolskie

Hi Dave, I hope you are doing well and looking forward to Spring gardening!

If you have the time, could you please translate this marriage record which is the last one on the page? I do not need the right hand side translated, which I understand indicates that the groom was 27 and the bride 26, and both were single. I would like to make sure that I understand the information on the left portion of the entry.

Thank-You, jajan

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dnowicki
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Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2025 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Gierlinski Mar 1801 Brzostkow, Jarocin, Wielkopolskie

jajan wrote:

Hi jajan,

Thanks for the kind thoughts. There would be very little of import you could miss in the entry. Most of the text deals with the usual legalities involved in an ecclesiastical marriage.

The translation follows.

With wishes for continued success,

Dave

Left Col. Date of Wedding: January 26
Body of Entry: Smiełowo: After the three proclamations of the banns had been announced beforehand on festive days and since no canonical impediment had been detected and since those to be joined in marriage, Walenty Gierlinski, a bachelor from Smiełowo, and Justyna Kucharska, a maiden from Smiełowo, had given their consent through words, I, L. Chrzanowski, joined together in marriage and blessed them in the presence of Maciej Guraski and Kazimierz Piątkoski, all from Smiełowo.

jajan

Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2025 4:08 pm Post subject: Wech Mar 1810 Kołdrąb, Żnin County, Kuyavian-Pomerania

Thank-You, Dave for the Gierlinski marriage translation. It is as far back as I have gotten that line, so it is very helpful to have a clear translation. I had hoped for maybe a hint of occupation or status. It helps to know that it does not provide indications of that info.

If you are willing to do so, I have another similar translation request for another end of the line family that is related. Again, I am only looking for a translation of the body of the marriage record on the left side. It is the first one for Jan Wech. I think it will be similar in lack of information but a translation would still be very much appreciated.

Sincerely, jajan.

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dnowicki
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Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Wech Mar 1810 Kołdrąb, Żnin County, Kuyavian-Pomerania

jajan wrote:

Hi jajan,

The entry has the same type of info or lack thereof.

The translation follows.

All the best,

Dave

Left Col.: The month of November; The village of Posługowko
Body of Entry: 1810 On the 4th day of November I, who is above, the curate of the place, blessed the marriage between the industrious* Jan Wech, a bachelor from the village of Szkółki, and Ewa Chmielowna**, a maiden from Posługowko after the 3 banns had been announced on Sundays in ther presence of the people gathered for the Divine Rites*** and since no canonical impediment had been revealed against the marriage between the above named parties. The witnesses were the industrious Kristof Bruder(?), a head of a household, Andrzej ?yx, a head of a household, and Felicjan Janoski, a householder.

Notes: *laboriosus/undutrious: a generral term for a peasant.
**The feminine suffix owna was used for an unmarried female.
***Divina/Divine Rites: Sunday Mass

FSokolowski

Joined: 28 Mar 2017
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Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:51 pm Post subject: Marcin translations

Hello, would somebody be willing to try translating these for me please? I'm quite sure the death certificate is for my ancestor, but I am still trying to work out if the birth record belongs to him, because the names are a bit different.

Thank you

Marcin Sobol 1763 [170v Skierniewice].JPG

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JGwizdowski
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 5:41 pm Post subject: Birth Record with No Name ?

Hello Dave! I have a simple request for help to understand a record...

On the line for March 24, house #2. There is no child's name listed, but there is a line beneath which I can only decipher the words "baptism" and "Zolynia". Can you explain what this line means?

As an aside, my g.grandmother Agnes Bzdziuch, who died in 1909, had property in Zolynia, according to her probate records. This may provide me some new clues!

Trust you are well, and Happy New Year!

Best,
Joe

Bzdziuch Un-named birth 1804.png.png

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dnowicki
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Marcin translations

FSokolowski wrote:

Hi F. Sokolowski,

Early short paragraph burial records usually do not contain much info which makes it easy to connect an individual to a baptism record. All the record of Xian burial is doing is keeping track of burials in the parish in a given year. Age at the time of death is often far from accurate and the parents of adults are seldom named. For a married person sometimes the spouse (especially if surviving) is named. A major reason for the lack of info is that the deceased was not providing the data and the accuracy of the data depends on the extent of knowledge of the informant or of the parish priest at the time of burial. The surname variation between the baptism and death records is easily understood for several reasons—not all peasants had/used surnames, surnames were mutable, and peasants generally were illiterate so data was entered as it was heard by the parish priest. Basically, as far as I can see, a connection between the individual in both records is possible and even likely. It is up to you to take the data and to create an argument to support the conclusion which you draw.

The translations follow.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Burial Record: From the city/town of Skierniewice
In the year 1812 on the 27th (of whatever month is given in the previouus entries) the upright* (&) industrious** Marcin Sobolwski died of the disease of epilepsy***after having been fortified by the Sacraments**** and was buried in the cemetery (I can’t read the handwriting of the last two words but they would not be helpful as identifiers.).

Notes: *honestus/upright: an adjective used to identify a farmer from a small city/town.
**laboriosus/industrious: an adjective used to describe an individual as a peasant.
***morbo caduco/from the falling sickness: a description of epilepsy
****Sacramentis/ by the Sacraments—Penance, Communion, and Extreme Unction—collectively known as “The Last Rites”.

Baptism Record: Skierniewice
In the year as above on the 9th day of November I,m who is named above, baptized an infant by the name of Marcin, the son of the legitimate marital union of the upright* Marcin Sobol and Ewa Kiczułowna**. The sponsors/godparents were the upright* Pawel Grzeczynski and the renowned*** and worthy**** Wiktoria Cielocka.

Notes: *honestus/upright: an adjective used to identify a farmer from a small city/town.
**–owna: an old feminine suffix formerly common and now no longer in vogue which identified a woman in terms of her father’s surname (i.e. her maiden name). Drop the suffix and you get the masculine form of the surname, in this case Kiczuł.
***famatus/renowned: an adjective used to refer to a middle class craftsman.
****spectabilis/worthy: an adjective used for a patrician/aristocrat from a town

dnowicki
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Birth Record with No Name ?

JGwizdowski wrote:

Hi Joe,

The entry reads: The Rev. Sebastian Gruszdecki(?) baptized (the unnamed child) in Zołynia. The child was baptized at home shortly after birth, probably in danger of death (“in extremis”). The child may or may not have survived. Usually, but not always, when a child survived they were brought to church where the ceremonies surrounding the main event (the pouring of water with the words “I baptize you...etc.” took place. In Catholic terms the main event is the Sacrament.(Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders are once in a lifetime events because they confer what the ancients in general and not just Christians, called an indelible “character” which can only happen once in a person’s life and the “ceremonies” are considered Sacramentals and thus can happen at a later time. (Memories of grammar school religion class. Marriage does not confer a "character" and thus can be repeated after a spouse's death. As they used to say in Chi-town "That knowledge and a dime will get you a transfer on any bus or El in the city. Transfers were free and bus fare was a dime back then. Ah, memories of the good or not so good old days—days which are not to be repeated or relived.. Upon enlistment Roman soldiers received a tattoo which marked them as members of a legion and was intended to prevent desertion before the 25 year enlistment was completed. The same thing happened to slaves to keep them from running away. Christians understood those 3 Sacraments as permanently marking one’s relationship to Christ, a mark which could not be undone or repeated. Thus the later visit to church is not a second baptism. If there is an entry in the parish register later in the year for the “supplying of the ceremonies” then you have proof positive that the child survived and the child’s given name would appear in the “ceremonies” entry)..

May 2025 be for you what the ancient Romans would call an “annus faustus” (a lucky, prosperous, and happy year.

Dave

JGwizdowski
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 2:14 pm Post subject:

Thank you so much, Dave! You have a wonderful way of bringing history to life and helping to understand the lives of our ancestors!

Dziękuję!
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Nancy Gurnett

Joined: 23 Jan 2025
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Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2025 10:33 am Post subject: Latin Birth with brother father same name

My grandmother is the baptized. The father Gabriel: (agr. farmer) then cannot make out the short form scrawl 'before Ludovici'. SPL? or FIL? Some family are assuming godparent Catharina spouse (ux.) of Ludovici is Mary's grandfather remarrying? Agneti first wife? I have not found the birth records or marriage of Gabriel or Paulina. Still checking Ukrainian Greek Orthodox. This Gabriel is in Kresy Siberia museum as he was sent to Siberia along with other family members. No one has found his birth record?
Looking extremely forward to your professional assistance.
Thank you in advance!
Nancy G.

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dnowicki
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Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2025 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Latin Birth with brother father same name

Nancy Gurnett wrote:

Hi Nancy,

The translation follows.

A note “universis et singulis” (“to all & sundry” and not just to you): It is most helpful to post the clearest possible copy of a scanned doc for translation. This usually involves using a photo app to improve the legibility of faded docs.

The village is now known as Zbarazh and here is the contact info link: https://www.rkc.lviv.ua/Zbarazh-en It may be worthwhile contacting the parish for the info you need.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Top of Certificate:
Left Side: Republic of Poland
Województwo/Province: Tarnopol
District/Powiat (County): Zbaraż
Center: Number (of certificate issued): 183
Right Side: Arch-Diocese: Lwów
Dekenat (Deanery): Tarnopol
Parish: Zbaraż

Certificate of birth and of baptism

The parish office of The Roman Rite of St. Anthony of Padua attests to all and sundry of whom it is or may be of interest that in the baptislmal registers of this church for the village of Krewolce Volume IV, Page 1, Number 4 is found the following:

In the year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred Seven that is 1907 on the twenty-fourth day of the month of Januarywas born at house number 100, and on the twenty-fourth day of January of the current year was baptized by Rev. Felicjan (Felician)) Gomulzczak(?)

Col. 1: Name of the one baptized: Marya (Marie)
Col. 2: Religion: Roman Catholic (Roman Rite)
Col. 3: Sex/Gender: Female
Col. 4: The (marital) bed: Legitimate
Col. 5: PARENTS
Col. 5a: The Father: Gabriel Warezak , a farmer, the son of Ludwik (Louis) and Agnieszka (Agnes) Kiełbuś (?)
Col. 5b: The Mother: Paulina, the daughter of Antoni (Anthony) Leczeck(?) and Marya (Marie) Gargulinska
Col 6a & b: The Sponsors & Notation: Kazimierz (Casimir) Gargulinski. a farmer (&) Katarzyna (Catherine) Warezak the wife of Ludwik (Louis)

The midwife: Paulina Wadoya(?)

In testimony of which I sign this certificate with my own had and affirm it with the seal of the parish church.

By the parish office in on the day of (Remainder is cut off.)

Signature of the parish priest with the parish seal (Not visible on copy)

Nancy Gurnett

Joined: 23 Jan 2025
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Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Latin Birth with brother father same name

Nancy Gurnett wrote:

Baptism Maria Warezak Bottom.jpg

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I thank you for the added information Dave! Here is the bottom part (oversized when scanned 2018). Midwife: Paulina Watowa. The whole family were midwives. Mailed in February 1927?? (she was emigrating to Canada that year and would have needed this to

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FSokolowski

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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2025 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Marcin translations

dnowicki wrote:

FSokolowski wrote:

FSokolowski

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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2025 1:34 pm Post subject:

Thank you very much indeed for your help with the translations, they are incredibly interesting! I'll have to ask in some of the other threads about other avenues of research by the sounds of it. Thanks again!

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