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JGwizdowski
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2025 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Help with name on 1789 birth record

As always, Dave, your explanations make for fascinating insights. My grandfather, Jozef Bzdziuch, managed to convince the rest of his immediate family to dispense with the family name and adopt the name of the village: Gwizdow. Understanding why they did is an easy call! Smile

What's more perplexing is: how did the son of poor farmers manage to get an education at the technical school in Lemberg/Lviv and receive training as an archictect. Jozef came to America and had a successful career in Chicago and Detroit.

I suppose no one could accuse him of bzdziuching around!

Thanks again, Dave... regards!

dnowicki wrote:

JGwizdowski wrote:

Hello all...I'm hoping you, Dave, or anyone with better trained eyes can help me with the name on this 1789 birth record from the parish at Grodzisko Dolne.

The record is halfway down on the page, 27 July 1789. I can't make any sense of the given name. The family name, to me, appears as Bzdzina? Could this surname be a variant of "Bzdziuch"?

What does the line beneath the name indicate? Finally, what is the difference between the cause of death "ordinary" and "natural"?

As always, thank you!

Hi Joe,

As far as the given name is concerned that is a tough judgment call. The priest was doing a lot of abbreviating in the entry and he abbreviated the given name. The letters are “Nico.” two masculine Latin names which come to mind are Nicodemus (Polish: Nikodem) and Nicolaus (Polish: Mikołaj), which would be a much more common possibility.

The name as it is entered could be a variant form of the name Bzdziuch . Can’t say for sure since surnames were quite fluid and since the bearers were generally illiterate the priest entered the name according to his own judgment of what he heard. Not long ago I helped a former school mate from grammar school with her Latin records from Galicia. The family surname was Rolek but for about a decade the name was entered as Lolek. Enunciation played a major role in what was written. It was sort of like Gump’s box of chocolatesؙ—you never know what you’re going to get. According to Fred Hoffman’s book on the origins and meanings of Polish surnames it is by no means a common surname. He wrote that it is derived from the verb bździeć meaning “to fart/talk nonsense” so I guess it would not be considered complimentary which may go a long way to explaining why it is not common. But who are we to judge?

The words below the name are “Idem sepelivit” which means “The same (as above) buried (him)”. This refers to the priest a few entries above, Stefan Plszczynski.

I don’t find any real difference between a natural and an ordinary death. Basically both deaths were from natural causes as opposed to being from accidents, murder, suicide, etc. Like the woman's first three husbands who died from eating poison mushrooms. Her fourth husband died from a blow to the head with a rolling pin because he wouldn't eat his mushrooms. No wonder the Ancient Romans had a saying "Beware the mushroom dinner."

I hope these words of wisdom answer your questions and are helpful.

Dave

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JGwizdowski
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Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:39 pm Post subject: Agnes Lizak Birth 1813

Hello Dave: Once again ask for your interpretive skills on the entry for 17 Dec 1813

Child: Agnieszka Lizak
Father: Kazimierz Lizak
Mother...? Pawul. My first guess would be Marianna, or maybe Magdalena? For the father, Mathew or Martinus?

Hoping you might produce a more accurate interpretation! Thank you, as always!

Agnes Lizak b 1813.jpg

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dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2025 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Agnes Lizak Birth 1813

JGwizdowski wrote:

Hi Joe,

The mother’s given name is Marianna. As far as her father’s given name is concerned...The handwriting and the Latin morphology make it a difficult call. The syntax used on the entire page for the name of the father is what is known as the Genitive of Origin. The Genitive of the two names you suggest are Martini for Martin/Marcin and Mathaei for Matthew/Mateusz. I definitely don’t see the entry as Mathaei. Although the handwriting is unclear, it appears that Martini is the more likely choice but it is not a 100% lock. In theory the scribes hired by the pastor to create the registers was supposed to have some minimal knowledge of Latin and good/clear handwriting. The scribe who was hired to make these entries definitely did not have a good/clear hand. Anyway, the final judgment call is yours to make. I hope this analysis helps with the call.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave

JGwizdowski
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Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2025 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Agnes Lizak Birth 1813

dnowicki wrote:

JGwizdowski wrote:

As always, a big thank you, Dave! Your observations are of great help in helping me form a proper theory. Best Regards!
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bigmakusa

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Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 2:52 pm Post subject: Request for Translation - Latin marriage record

Dave-

Would appreciate it if you could please translate the attached 1819-1820 marriage record from the Podlasie region of Poland. If you need to see the original, you can find it at the following link:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=3247&sy=1819&kt=2&plik=002.jpg

1819-1820 marriage record in Latin.jpg

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dnowicki
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Request for Translation - Latin marriage record

bigmakusa wrote:

Hi,

Sad to say...I’ll not be able to provide you with s verbatim translation of the record. Even sadder to report...most of what I can tell you is neither genealogically significant nor useful.

The entry actually begins at the bottom of the previous page. What is the problem? The link makes it possible to access the previous page. Unfortunately, the bottom of the previous page was written in disappearing ink. If you go to the previous page your record begins following the legible words “Benedixi praesentibus...vicar(ius loci)’. Nothing to see there folks. Unfortunately, based on other nearby entries the records begin with the date of the wedding, and that data is lost to the disappearing ink and the poor quality of the document. I can tell you that the wedding took place during the year 1820.

The portion of the doc you posted continues with the dates of the banns which is not usually significant info. The banns were announced on the 20th, 21st, & 22nd Sundays after Pentecost. To translate those dates into Gregorian Calendar days some counting is required starting with the date of Easter which in 1820 was on April 2. Pentecost is 50 days after Easter which would put it on May 28. The next step is to count the Sundays which come after May 28, 1820. My counting puts the 22nd Sunday after Pentecost on October 22, 1820 which means that the wedding took place between that date and October 29th. You might consider checking the date of the 22nd Sunday after Pentecost for yourself in case my count of the weeks is not accurate.

The remainder of the entry records many stock legal tidbits with a few bits of genealogically significant info interspersed as follows:

1. The groom was the upright* (honestus) Lawrence/Wawrzyniec Wasilewski, a bachelor age ???five (probably 25).

2. The bride was Christine/Krystyna Swislieszcuwna(???), a maiden, (possibly 19) years of age from the village of Karpowicze.

3. The witnesses were Bartholomew/Bartłomiej Starasiewicz(?) and Joseph/Józef Biezka, and many others present.

Note: *honestus/upright: an adjective used to describe a peasant farmer from a village or a small town.

The disappearing/faded ink in this document brings to mind a recent article about scrolls discovered during the 18th Century in Herculaneum, which, together with Pompei, was buried in volcanic ash from Mt. Vesuvius in the year 79. The scrolls had been carbonized due to the heat of the pyroclastic flow from the eruption. In the past when scholars tried to unroll the scrolls in order to read the contents the scrolls crumbled. Recent tech developments allowed the scrolls to be virtually unwrapped making it possible to read the contents. It is possible that technology exists which could restore the faded ink of your document but it is unlikely that the budget of the archive where the record is held will ever allow that to happen.

It is interesting that Pliny the Younger was an eyewitness to the eruption of Vesuvius (from a distance, of course) and recorded the event in two of his letters. His uncle, Pliny the Elder, was a natural scientist/historian who was also the admiral of the Roman fleet at Miseneum, wanted to get a closer view of the eruption and decided to take a galley to investigate. While preparing to leave port he received a message from friends in Herculaneum asking for his help to evacuate. Pliny decided to take a quadrime but ash from the eruption was filling the Bay of Naples which did not allow the use of such a large galley so he took a trireme instead. After he arrived the tide was out so he had to wait until the next day for high tide in order to leave. He and his friends decided to spend the night on the beach in order not to be trapped inside the villa by the accumulating ash. Unfortunately, Pliny died on the beach that night from “a constriction of the esophagus”. I was using the letters of Pliny the Younger for third year students in the 1980s at the time of the eruption of Mt. St. Helens in 1980. A lady I knew had a sister who lived downwind from the Volcano and she sent a jar of ash which my friend shared with me. The ash has the consistency and color of baby powder so I can understand how breathing the ash could result in the death of a person with breathing difficulties. Ah, memories of days past.

Anyway, sorry that there was so little legible info in the record. I hope that what little there is helps you.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave

ossnhughie
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 2:04 pm Post subject: Latin records translations

Hello Dave,

I was hoping that when you get the chance you can look at the 3 Latin records I put up back on pg 286 about half way down. They are of the 3 Frackiewicz brothers from Sumiliszki parish. It seems to me the mother has the same first name on all 3 but a different last name on the record for Piotr.

I appreciate all the help you can give but I know you get a lot of requests Smile

Warm regards,

Hugh
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stewart

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Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: baptism record

dnowicki wrote:

stewart wrote:

I've been sent a copy of my relative Julia Ilkow's baptism record from 1893. I am interested in the 2nd column from the right 'PARENTES at conditio' which can translate as PARENTS and status. So The first part is easy I think, her father was Demetrius Ilkow, a farmer. I can't read the word underneath which begins with P. I thought it might be Julia's mother's name??? Then underneath that word I translate as 'Nicolai Tkacz and Anastasia born Marusiak'. Who are they and what are their names doing there? It then has the word filia which means daughter, I don't understand what that is doing there. I wondered if the word beginning with P was Julia'a mother whether Nicolai and Anastasia might be Julia's maternal grandparents, but if that's the case why aren't Demetrius' parents listed? Then after 'filia' it reads 'agrico ex' followed by 2 words/names I can't decipher. or understand

So basically besides Demetrius Ilkow being Julia's father who/what is the rest of the column stating / describing?

Hello Stewart,

Your reading of the name of Julia’s father is correct but it should be translated into the vernacular. The English version of his name has two forms—Demeterius and also Dmitri. The Polish version of his name is Dymitr. The next word in the column is Parasceva in Latin & it is the given name of Julia’s mother. The English version is Parascheva and the Polish is Paraskewa. She is the daughter of Nicholas (Polish: Mikołaj) Ilkow & Anastasia (Polish: Anastazja) née Marusiak, who are farmers. Yes, they are Julia’s maternal grandparents.

The parents of a child’s father (Julia’s paternal grandparents) were usually included. Why the priest who baptized and confirmed her did not enter their names is anyone’s guess.

Certificates such as this from what during the 19th Century was Austrian ruled Galicia actually contain very little in the way of Latin morphology and syntax so they are quite easy to translate as long as one is familiar with the vernacular surnames and place names. The certificate you were sent was issued during the period between WWI and WWII when the region was part of the Second Polish Republic. (The First Polish Republic was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth which disappeared from the map of Europe following the Third Partition of Poland in 1795. The Commonwealth was a sprawling territory which had been the largest country/political entity in Europe.) The date the certificate was issued would appear at the bottom of the certificate which is not included in the image you posted. The word filia does not appear where one would expect to find it based on English word order but since Latin was a highly inflected language word order did not play a pivotal role in Latin composition. The noun endings were what was important, not the word order. The words agricol(ae) ex (farmers from) are followed by the Polish name of the village where they resided and appear to me as S(?)alamowna Górka. Two good sources for info about locations in Poland are http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/ and https://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/publication/edition/12786?id=12786&from=publication

Here are some details found in the record about which you did not ask but which may prove valuable to you: Julia was born on July 7 and was Baptized and Confirmed on July 8. Since her family was Eastern Rite Catholic (called Greek Catholic at the time and today known as Ukrainian Rite Catholics) the so called Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Communion, & Confirmation) were all received at the same time. Latin (Roman) Rite Catholics spread them out—Baptism in infancy, Communion after age seven and Confirmation later.

The other info which you may find useful is in the column for the sponsors aka godparents. The female sponsor aka godmother was Rozalia, the wife of Michael (Polish: Michał) Ilkow, who were likely relatives of Julia’s father.

Attached is a late 19th Century map of Galicia.

Wishing you successful research,

Dave

Dave, just for the sake of completion: in the Patrini column who would Georgius Procyszyn have been? a) a 2nd godfather along with Michael Ilkow or b) the only godfather with Rosalia Ilkow as godmother but with no role for Michael Ilkow?

dnowicki
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Latin records translations

ossnhughie wrote:

Warm regards,

Hugh

The name of the father and the given name of the mother are the same in all 3 records. The maiden name of the mother in the 1728 and 1736 (not 1737) baptismal records is the same—Mackiewicz. The maiden name in the 1734 record is not even close—Pezewicz(?).

Vale,

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:14 am Post subject: Re: baptism record

[quote="stewart"

Dave, just for the sake of completion: in the Patrini column who would Georgius Procyszyn have been? a) a 2nd godfather along with Michael Ilkow or b) the only godfather with Rosalia Ilkow as godmother but with no role for Michael Ilkow?[/quote]

Stewart,

Here is the transcription and translation of the entry. The column heading “Patrini” means “Sponsors”. The entry reads: “Georgius Procyszyn+ (et) Rosalia Michaelis Ikkow uxor+ agricolae ex Woloske Selo”. The translation of the entry is: “George (Polish: Jerzy) Procyszyn (&) Rosalia (Polish: Rozalia) the wife of Michael (Polish: Michał), farmers from Wołoska Wieś”. The + represents either the signature for literate individuals or the mark for those who are illiterate as appeared in the parish register. George/Jerzy was the male sponsor/godfather and Rosalia/Rozalia was the female sponsor/godmother. Michael/Michał was her husband and had no role in the baptism ceremony.

Here are some items for the sake of historical accuracy:

1. Not everything is the entry is in Latin. Given names are in Latin but surnames and place names are in the vernacular. The village where the sponsors resided is entered in Ukrainian but I translated it into the Polish form. I translated given names into both English and Polish for each name.

2. It is extremely important to understand that in the theology and practice of the Roman (Latin) and Eastern Rite Catholic Churches godparents officially do not exist. Those who are popularly known as godparents are actually sponsors. Two Sacraments involve sponsors, Baptism & Confirmation. Matrimony has witnesses not sponsors. Three official witnesses are required for validity, the priest and two additional witnesses. Currently those two are the maid/matron of honor and the best man. During most of the years prior to the end of the Nineteenth Century the two witnesses were almost always males. It wasn’t an equal opportunity world. The exceptions would be some more liberal minded priests who included the wives of the male witnesses in the official list of witnesses. The existence of baptismal sponsors goes back to the earliest days of Christianity. Obviously, the early converts to Christianity were adults not infants. They needed a sponsor to “join the club” of Christians. The sponsor attested to the potential convert’s sincere intentions and acted as a mentor. Infant baptism did not become the norm until well into the Fifth Century. Augustine of Hippo, known as St. Augustine,(354-430) was the son of a pagan father and of Monica (St. Monica) a devout Christian. He was not baptized until he made the decision to “join the club” as a young adult as he relates in his Confessions. He was a proponent of the idealistic philosophy of Plato and Augustine’s philosophical outlook dominated Christian thought until the rise of the universities when the existentialism of Aristotle was reintroduced to western Europe via Arabic translations of Aristotle’s works. Anyway, the thoughts of Augustine helped to propel the desire for infant baptism whether that was his intention or not. (He believed that unbaptized infants go to hell since the unbaptized can’t get into heaven—not a consoling thought for parents who lost an unbaptized child.) The solution since they can’t get into heaven and going to hell is not a good option was the idea of limbo. According to the ancient world view you have a flat earth with heaven above and hell below (although the Beatles did not agree with that). In the ancient view the border where heaven, hell and earth met (the limbus) became the place for the unbaptized—Limbo, which was viewed as being neither here nor there—not hell and not heaven and not the world in which we live. BTW Catholics can believe in Limbo or not believe in it as they choose. The common belief that baptism was necessary to be saved from Original Sin combined with infant mortality made baptism soon after birth the norm of choice for Christian parents. The concept of having a sponsor carried over from adult baptisms and the CUSTOM of having a male and a female sponsor who were popularly called godparents became generally accepted. Among Catholics no more than two baptismal sponsors were allowed.—All this by way of explaining who was who in the patrini (sponsors) column. The male sponsor/godfather was George Procyszyn and the female sponsor/godmother was Rosalia who is identified in terms of her husband (uxor Michaelis/the wife of Michael. Michael played no role in the baptism ceremony and may or may not have been present for the ceremony.

I hope the above clarifies the situation and answers your questions.

Dave

ossnhughie
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:58 am Post subject:

Thanks Dave. The confusing part is these 3 men are referenced as brothers in a Frackiewicz family tree record from the late 1700s. It obviously doesn't make sense that the middle child would have a mother with a different surname. I couldn't make out if there was a village named where they were born.

I know mistakes can and did happen in records but this seems quite strange.

Warm regards,

Hugh
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bigmakusa

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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 11:14 pm Post subject: Request for translation - Two birth records in Latin

Dave would appreciate it if you could translate the attached two birth records written in Latin from the Karpowicze parish in Podlasie:

Thanks

Karpowicze birth (1824 No. 3).jpg

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ron.bolesta.522

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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:37 pm Post subject: seeking help in translating old latin

Can you help translate 4 old latin files. They are each 4 or 5 lines long. They are Bolesta family members from the village of Bolesty Polans in the early 1800's. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Bolesty Poland Marianna Bolesta Translation Request.jpg

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Ron Bolesta

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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:39 pm Post subject: seeking help in translating old latin

Can you help translate 4 old latin files. They are each 4 or 5 lines long. They are Bolesta family members from the village of Bolesty Poland in the early 1800's. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Bolesty Poland Joseph Bolesta Translation Request.jpg

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Ron Bolesta

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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:40 pm Post subject: seeking help in translating old latin

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