roseanne
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Replies: 30
Location: Milwaukee, WisconsinBack to top |
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:02 am
Post subject: Polish translation - Marcin Sobecki, Anna Duchalska
I would appreciate help with the attached record. This is an 1843 death record for my grandfather's grandfather, Marcin Sobecki. His wife is Anny Duchalska. What is the day/month of death? Does the record give age and occupation? Thank you.
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:34 am
Post subject:
Roseanne,
Day of the record: 8 august 1843
at 2 p.m.
witness Franciszek Szwierchowski (not sure), 28, and
Kazimierz Palicki (not sure), 42, both residing in ....Bleszny?
day of the death: 6 same month and year. at 2 p.m.
Marcin Sobeski, 59 years old, born in... Krolestwa (Kingdom of Poland)
mentions his wife Anna Duchalska, but I cannot tell if she was alive or not.
Gilberto
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:47 am
Post subject:
I believe the places are Blenna (presented in a declensioned form, Blenny, and Komorowo, just 3 miles West.
Gilberto
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roseanne
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Replies: 30
Location: Milwaukee, WisconsinBack to top |
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:54 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto, Thank you very much for the quick reply. Yes, the record is not a good copy when I originally got it. The age, date, and location allows me to trace backward to find a marriage or birth record. Thanks again, Roseanne
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:24 pm
Post subject:
Hi Roseanne,
I tried to get as much as possible, here my findings and translation.
The stylish handwriting of your document is indeen painful.
Kind regards,
Elisabeth
Bł --- y?
Starts with B, ends with y: Bł --- y
Possible letters are among small ones in lowercase (a, c, e, i, m, n, o, r, s, u, w, z), i.e. when handwritten on a school paper with 3 lines, those letters stay below the middle line.
I would say without diacritics (no dot, no ogonek, no acute), because there is none in the Akt, three time the name is handwritten – but who knows for that so stylish letters?
The very beginning “Dzialo sie we wsi Bł --- y” is a nominative declension, imply that “y” MUST be the last letter of the place name.
The place “Bł --- y” is within Królestwo Polskie (the text says that Marcin Solecki was born “abroad of Królestwo” – urodzony za granica Królestwa).
I checked the “Słownik geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego i innych krajów słowiańskich” where all names of that time are recorded (BTW fantastic work to have it indexed), all names starting with Bł and ending with y.
Start page http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_I/245
End page http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_I/255
Three names with “y” at the end:
1. Błaziny (powiat Iłza)
2. Błazy (przysiolek wsi Krowica)
3. Błyszczowody (8 km na wschod od Zołkwi)
Re 1. Today we have two Błaziny, Dolne and Gorne, both 2 or 4 km distance from Iłza, in Mazowieckie
Re 2. One cannot find it today. Not much in the old geography book. There are few Krowica, mainly close to Lubaczow and Kalisz,cf. http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krowica
An aside finding: there is a Baptist Church in Krowice, see http://www.baptysci.pl/component/content/article/192-aktualnosci/2147-swiatowy-dzien-modlitwy-podziekowanie-za-ofiarnosc
Re 3. Błyszczowody are un Ukraina today - Żółkiew, L'vivs'ka oblast, Ukraine
More information from you could help.
==Transcript and translation
Numer 12
Dzialo sie we wsi Bł --- y dnia osmego sierpnia tysiac osiemset czterdziestego trzeciego roku o godzinie drugiej po poludniu. Stawili sie Franciszek Zewierzchonski, szewc, lat dwadziescia osiem, tudziez Kazimierz Palicki, gospodarz, lat czterdziesci dwa liczacy, obydwaj tu, w Bł --- y zamieszkali, i oswiadczyli ze w dniu szostym biezacego miesiac i roku o godzinie drugiej po poludniu umarl Marcin Sobecki lat piecdziesiac dziewiec liczacy, we wsi Bł --- y na komornem mieszkajacy, urodzony za granica Krolestwa, pozostawiawszy po sobie owdowiala zone Anne z Duchalskich. Po przekonaniu sie naocznie odejscia Sobeckiego, Akt ten stawajacym przeczytany, a ze pisac nie umieja, przez nas tylko podpisany. K.Salomon
It did happen in the village of Bl --- y the eighth day of August one thousand eight hundred and forty-third year, at two o'clock in the afternoon. There appeared Zewierzchonski Franciszek, shoemaker, aged twenty-eight, and also Kazimierz Palicki, farmer, aged forty-two, both living in the Bl --- y, and said that in the sixth day of the current month and year at two o'clock in the afternoon passed away Marcin Sobecki, fifty-nine years old, in the village Bl --- y, in a rented place, born abroad of the Kingdom of Poland; he leaves a widowed wife Anna born Duchalska. After the eyewitnessing that Sobecki passed away, this act was read to the present, and as they do not know how to write, we just signed. K.Salomon
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:14 pm
Post subject:
| Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote: | Hi Roseanne,
I tried to get as much as possible, here my findings and translation.
The stylish handwriting of your document is indeen painful.
Kind regards,
Elisabeth
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Elzbieta,
On the record below I read "umarl w Roguskach Tomasz Marcinkowski". If Rog* is a declensioned form of a place's name perhaps it could help identify the correct name for "Bl...y", because these are records from the same parish.
Gilberto
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2950
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:30 pm
Post subject:
Roseanne,
Since you attached a scan of the death record, I'm sure that you are well aware that the name of the parish (and the village) is Blenna. The form in the record is Blenny which is the Locative Singular, the case which is governed by the preposition w. If you would like to obtain a clearer scan of the record, visit http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl and click on Kujawsko-Pomorskie and then select Blenna zgony and type in your great, great grandfather's surname. The results will give you a link to the scanned record of his death which can be downloaded. As far as his occupation is concerned---it seems that he was a tenant farmer since Blenna is a rural village. I'm familiar with many villages in the part of Poland since a large number of my ancestors and relatives came from that area. Attached is a bit of information about Blenna. Of course, the church building is later than the parish church at the time of his death.
Hope this helps a little.
Dave
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:12 pm
Post subject:
| dnowicki wrote: | Roseanne,
Since you attached a scan of the death record, I'm sure that you are well aware that the name of the parish (and the village) is Blenna. The form in the record is Blenny which is the Locative Singular, the case which is governed by the preposition w.
...
Dave |
Dave,
I belive with your help, plus the second reading of attached document we are on the correct path.
One more correction and we are done.
The handwritten Bł---y is in fact Bł---ej, the end is a letter "j", miejscownik, locative.
We all got confused by the stylish handwritting, there is no "y" at the end, but "ej".
===line 1. Dzialo sie we wsi Błennej
===line 4. obydwaj tu, w Błennej zamieszkali
===line 7. w Błennej na komornem mieszkajacy
1.mianownik (kto? co?) Błenna
2.dopełniacz (kogo? czego?) Błennej
3.celownik (komu? czemu?) Błennej
4.biernik (kogo? co?) Błenną
5.narzędnik ((z) kim? (z) czym?) Błenną
6.miejscownik (o kim? o czym?) Błennej
It declines like for example Zielona.
Błenna is on page 247, powiat Kolski, gmina Izbica
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_I/247
Goggle says it's 9 km from Izbica Kujawska, Poland.
Elzbieta
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:13 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto,
It is Błenna, see the end of the story in my previous message.
Thank you!
Elzbieta
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:38 pm
Post subject:
| dnowicki wrote: | Roseanne,
If you would like to obtain a clearer scan of the record, visit http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl and click on Kujawsko-Pomorskie and then select Blenna zgony and type in your great, great grandfather's surname. The results will give you a link to the scanned record of his death which can be downloaded.
Dave |
Dave,
There is a mistery here. I have tried Geneteka after replying to Roseanne and came up with no results, in any province, for Sobeski/Sobecki.
Now I have seen your post and followed your steps but, once again, no results for Sobeski/Sobecki in Blenna death records.
Gilberto
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:41 pm
Post subject:
| Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote: | Gilberto,
It is Błenna, see the end of the story in my previous message.
Thank you!
Elzbieta |
I am glad my first assumption was right. One more thing: you have read 'komeren' and I though it was "komorowie", that's why I mentioned the near village of Komorowo. Two things draw my attention here: I have never seen - through hundreds of records - any mention to a person living in a rented place; and that leads me to the second question: why it is 'komeren' written with a capital K?
Gilberto
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:22 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto,
The word is "komorne" - na komornem mieszkajacy.
Komorne is what you pay to a landlord to rent an appartment.
Another Polish word is czynsz.
The interesting ethymology here, it cames from
http://www.etymologia.org/wiki/S%C5%82ownik+etymologiczny/komora
You will find two meanings for komornik:
tenant and bailiff; poor and representing the power.
I do believe people lived in rented places, but probably the name "komorne" was used for flats only.
In Przemysl there is a number of "kamienice czynszowe" (that was a name used before WWII), which was buildings with flats for rent.
The English word is tenement, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenement
Elzbieta
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2950
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:30 pm
Post subject:
The scan is attached.
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:16 pm
Post subject:
Dave,
Thanks, but I wasn't trying to get this record. Actually, I wanted to clarify why Geneteka did not display any results for Sobeski.
In all my searches there I have never checked the box 'exact name' because a surname may have been transcribed with or without the polish diacritics.
This way, by typing Goscinski it would return both Goscinski and Gościński. Why has Geneteka not displayed any result for Sobeski? Either it is a failure in Geneteka search engine or it is because the information is linked to the ZOSIA system. Whatever it is, I think researchers must be aware of this issue (and Geneteka administrators, too) in order not to think their ancestors were not found in Geneteka database.
Gilberto
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roseanne
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Replies: 30
Location: Milwaukee, WisconsinBack to top |
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:23 am
Post subject:
Elzbieta, Dave, and Gilberto: Thanks to everyone for the wonderful history lesson and search tips for my ancestor. This is truly a pot of gold for me. Years ago, I had a birth record translated for Marcin's son Walenty. It mentioned a location of Blenna/Gogoty (Gogoly) and his occupation of cook. I must learn to sort out village, town, city, and district as I continue to find records for my family. Thank you.
Roseanne
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