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karolmarcinik

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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:27 pm Post subject: Help with handwriting analysis of name on RC baptism record

Hi, I have been trying to decipher the surnames on a handwritten baptismal record for my great-uncle. I have managed to figure out all but one, and it seems to come down to the ending on the surname. I've searched on http://www.herby.com.pl with wildcards, but it does not seem that this particular surname is in the database (is there a more extensive online surname database?). However, I have matched various possible guesses for the ending itself (on other base surnames) and unfortunately there seem to be a few possibilities. I am hoping someone with more expertise can lend a hand.

In any case, the record is attached below. The particular surname that I am trying to decipher appears under the "Pater nati" column. On both this column and the "Patrini" column, it appears the last surname in the list is divided between the base name and its ending. In the "Patrini" column, I know this is the case because I recognize the name (Furdak) from my great-uncle's village (relatives there have that surname). The one I am trying to figure out seems to have a "base" of "Murga" which turns up on the "herby" site for a few different surnames, albeit with no ending or endings that do not seem to match what I have here. Here is the transcription that I have so far for the "Pater nati" column (combination of Latin words and first names and Polish surnames):

"Andreas Kabala agricola filius Josepho et Francisae natae Murga???"

Here are some of my guesses for the ending based on examining the handwriting of the person who recorded this record:
- wcy
- cacy
- wiej

The recorder seemed to be careful to dot all i's so I am guessing that the last two letters are not ij, because if they were, I would expect two dots. For similar reasons, that would seem to disqualify -wiej because again I would expect two dots. There do not appear to be any other j's on the record, so there is nothing for comparison. Also, since there is a dot following the last letter that would seem to disqualify - wcy. Can anybody guess what the likelihood of the ending would be? I have seen surnames ending in -wcy and -wiej but not -cacy so I tend to discount it as well (not to mention the presence of a dot). In case region could be a hint, Tarnawa Gorna, where my great-uncle was born, is in the southeastern corner of Poland in podkarpackie.

JozefKabalaBaptismalRecord.jpg

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Jozef Kabala Baptism Record

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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject:

Hi Karol,

I can read without problem, but I am not Latin language expert (I have a couple of original Testimonium Ortus et Baptismi from my family, also from podkarpackie).

Andreas Kabala, agricola, filius Joseph et Franciscae natae Murgawcy.

I guess the problem is gramatical.

In Polish it should be:

Andrzej Kabala, rolnik, syn Jozefa i Franciszki urodzonej (z domu) Murgawiec.

The form Murgawcy is a plural for husband and wife, for example Jan i Maria Murgawcy, or Jan i Maria Kowalscy.

Unless there is a Latin form allowing to put plural for a family name (giving that way an additional information that Franciszka was a daughter of married father and mother, Murgawcy), it should be like I wrote in Polish.

Best,
Elzbieta

dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject:

Karol & Elzbieta,
In Latin records first names are given in their Latin form and surnames are always given in the vernacular of the place. Since Latin is an inflected language nouns change their endings to denote use in a sentence. In the record the name of the child is in the Nominative case: Josephus. The names of the father and the mother are also in the Nominative case, Andreas and Catharina. The nouns filius and filia are also in the Nominative case because they stand in apposition with Andreas and Catharina. The names of the parents of Andrzej are Josephi and Franciscae which are in the Genitive case indicating possession or origin. Natae is also in the Genitive Case because it modifies a noun (Franciscae) which is in the Genitive. There is no linguistic reason originating from the Latin why the priest entered the surname in the Polish Nominative Plural and Elzbieta is absolutely correct in her rendering of the surname Murgawiec.
Dave

karolmarcinik

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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:38 pm Post subject:

dnowicki wrote:

Dave,
Everything you've stated is what I would have expected. However, I am not as familiar with Polish name endings and inflection. So, what would be the nominative feminine case for Murgawiec? That surname must not be too common because it did not show up on a herby.com.pl search (though I know that database is not exhaustive), and it only showed up on Google once, apparently as a mountain peak in Bulgaria(!). What would be the nominative feminine case for some of the other names for the women who appear on the certificate? For example, would Sadlik be Sadlika? Would Furdak be Furdaka? I have heard that some Polish names only use the masculine form for women. Is that true? And would that be true for Stach?

Thanks, Elzbieta and Dave, for your assistance.

Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:28 am Post subject:

karolmarcinik wrote:

However, I am not as familiar with Polish name endings and inflection. So, what would be the nominative feminine case for Murgawiec? That surname must not be too common because it did not show up on a herby.com.pl search (though I know that database is not exhaustive), and it only showed up on Google once, apparently as a mountain peak in Bulgaria(!). What would be the nominative feminine case for some of the other names for the women who appear on the certificate? For example, would Sadlik be Sadlika? Would Furdak be Furdaka? I have heard that some Polish names only use the masculine form for women. Is that true? And would that be true for Stach?

Thanks, Elzbieta and Dave, for your assistance.

Karol,

Interesting question!

Let's have a look on names in your document :

PRIEST: Martini Kruczek, in Polish Marcin Kruczek, no feminine form.
MATER NATI: Catharinae filia Andreas Mołocznik et Victoriae Sadlik natae. In Polish Katarzyna corka Andrzeja Mołocznika [Nominative: Andrzej Mołocznik] i Wiktorii born Sadlik [Nominative: Wiktoria Sadlik]. No feminine form, neither for Mołocznik nor for Sadlik.
PATRINI: Andreas Stach, agricola, et X? [the ending suggest Tecla, however the first letter does not seem to be T, unless it is Cyrillic T] Furdak. No feminine form for Furdak.
OBST (Obstetrician): Catharinae Stach. No feminine form for Stach.
SIGNATURE: Antonius Ziemba. No feminine form for Ziemba.

In Polish you have feminine and masculine forms for all names with suffix –ski or –cki, or in general, for names which are an adjective.
Other names are invariant.
But you have declensions, and that can be very misleading. You have plural for a husband and his wife together.
You also have suffixes, which have an explicit meaning for women: - ówna is for daughter of; -owa is for wife of. For example: Maria Sadlikówna is daughter of Sadlik, while Maria Sadlikowa is wife of Sadlik.

Back to Murgawiec, or Murgaw - no feminine form here.

I was also searching for Murgaw or Murgawa, found the same Bulgarian mountain, but also a blog of Polish writer, elaborating about a number of names, and where he states: murgi – czarny, murgaw – czerniawy. In his other blog he writes about archeology and refers to the river Murgab, in Turkmenistan.

I would be looking much closer, to the unit morga or mórg, which you spell murg
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morga
In today Poland 606 persons are named Morga.

Best,
Elzbieta
==

Your document is from Dioecesanae Premislensis, which is Przemyśl.
Parish Tarnawa Górna, District Lesko.

karolmarcinik

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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:38 am Post subject:

Elzbieta,
Thank you for your extensive reply. Please see a few comments/questions below.
Kind Regards,
Karol

Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote:

Is there variations in spelling for "Wiktoria." I was thinking that it would be "Wiktorja."

Quote:

No feminine form, neither for Mołocznik nor for Sadlik.
PATRINI: Andreas Stach, agricola, et X? [the ending suggest Tecla, however the first letter does not seem to be T, unless it is Cyrillic T]

Actually, I think the 'T' there is within the handwriting variations that I've seen for this letter (see the the first form in the attachment below). I took that name to be the Latin Thecla (=Polish/Slavik: Tekla). I think that the recorder of the record connected the 'T' and 'h' high and sometimes left a gap between parts of the same letter, in this case the 'h'.

Quote:

Furdak. No feminine form for Furdak.
OBST (Obstetrician): Catharinae Stach. No feminine form for Stach.
SIGNATURE: Antonius Ziemba. No feminine form for Ziemba.

In Polish you have feminine and masculine forms for all names with suffix –ski or –cki, or in general, for names which are an adjective.
Other names are invariant.
But you have declensions, and that can be very misleading. You have plural for a husband and his wife together.
You also have suffixes, which have an explicit meaning for women: - ówna is for daughter of; -owa is for wife of. For example: Maria Sadlikówna is daughter of Sadlik, while Maria Sadlikowa is wife of Sadlik.

Yes, I am going to need to learn more about Polish name formation and Polish in general!.

Quote:

Back to Murgawiec, or Murgaw - no feminine form here.

I was also searching for Murgaw or Murgawa, found the same Bulgarian mountain, but also a blog of Polish writer, elaborating about a number of names, and where he states: murgi – czarny, murgaw – czerniawy. In his other blog he writes about archeology and refers to the river Murgab, in Turkmenistan.

I would be looking much closer, to the unit morga or mórg, which you spell murg
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morga
In today Poland 606 persons are named Morga.

Are you saying that the spelling has changed for this name? Because it definitely looks like Murga on the certificate.

Quote:

Best,
Elzbieta
==

Your document is from Dioecesanae Premislensis, which is Przemyśl.
Parish Tarnawa Górna, District Lesko.

I was at that parish in 2008. Actually, when my great-uncle(s) (and grandparents and great-aunts) were born, this parish did not exist (it was established in 1908). The closest parish was in Poraz, another small village nearby--which I also visited.

PolishTVariations.png

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Variations in handwriting for the Polish letter 'T'

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Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:17 am Post subject:

Karol,

//
Is there variations in spelling for "Wiktoria." I was thinking that it would be "Wiktorja."
//

Yes. In my own old familial records from Przemyśl, I noted that Polish orthography evolved over time. My aunt Maria had documents from her young days, where her First name was written Marja.
What is important here is Polish spelling (or Slavic languages spelling).
In Polish (or in general in Slavic languages) there is a short, normal "i", and a longer "i", which was noted "j" in old Polish orthography. That “i” and “j” is quite tricky for English or French speakers, because they do not spell “j” as we do, they spell it like in “jazz”. You can see that big spelling problem in Cyrillic Romanization systems, where the ones made by French/English use “-aya” or “-iya” ending, and the Russian or other Cyrillic native writers use “-aja” or “-ija”.

In short: in Polish “i” and “j” are very close !

Concerning Murga
//
Are you saying that the spelling has changed for this name? Because it definitely looks like Murga on the certificate.
//
I am guessing. Polish orthography is tricky with "ó" and "u" - the same sound, you have to either know the etymology, or memorize; and with "rz" and "ż", the same case. I have seen on my own an old person writing one of the alternatives instead of another in his own family name. Therefore I do belive it's possible. Today Wiki writes "morga" but quotes the past orthography "mórg".

Congrats for your analysis of handwritten T.

Elzbieta

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:42 am Post subject:

Karol & Elzbieta,

Just a few additions to the discussion. In regard to Thecla vs. Tecla, both spellings are found in Latin documents. The reason for the variation is found in the nature of the letter "H" which is not a true consonant but rather is an asperate, i.e. a rough breathing of the vowel which follows. "H" is how the Latin (Roman) alphabet signified the rough breathing found in the Classical Greek alphabet and is a rather late addition to the Latin alphabet. In fact, the Latin poet Martial (c. 40 A.D. to c. 104 A.D.) in one of his epigrams mocks his contemporaries who sought to put on airs by using "h" when they were actually demonstrating a lack of sophistication by their misuse of the letter. What transpired in Latin usage, especially in post-classical Latin, was a lack of consistency in the use of the letter h. Some examples are: Eva and Heva, Tomas and Thomas, Alleluia and Hallelujah.
A similar thing occurs with the written letters "I" and "J". Classical Latin in written form did not distinguish between the consonantal and vocal and so both were signified in written form by the letter "I". Older grammars and dictionaries (prior to about 1950) did distinguish the two letters in written form. However, more contemporary usage reverted to the Classical "I" for both letters. In documents words like January are written as Ianuarius and also as Januarius or the genitive singular of the pronoun is, ea,id (he, she, it) is found as eius and as ejus or the genitive singular of the demonstrative pronoun hic, haec, hoc (this) is found as huius and as hujus. Perhaps the most important lesson these variations teach is that language is not cut in stone but is variable according to the time, location, the spoken form of the language and the degree of sophistication/education of the speaker/writer. An example of this type of variability which comes to mind is the Polish translation of the Latin form of the name Andrew---Andreas. Most often the Polish is Andrzej. However, in some locations and at some times Jedrzej is found in place of Andrzej. While there is a difference in pronunciation and perhaps one form can be considered to be more correct than the other, to paraphrase a recent statement of Pope Francis, "Who are we to judge?"

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:11 am Post subject:

Karol & Elzbieta,

Just a few thoughts regarding feminine forms of surnames which I did not have time to add in the previous post---I would like to point out several additions to the fine explanation provided by Elzbieta. In addition to adjectival surnames ending in ski and cki there are also those which end in y in the masculine form. These also form the feminine by changing the masculine termination y to the feminine a. An example would be Niespodziany (masculine) which is Niespodziana in the feminine form. A second addition concerns the feminine form of nominal surnames for unmarried women. At one time there was an additional suffix, anka or sometimes onka used in addition to the owna suffix mentioned by Elzbieta. I've found this usage in documents, particularly marriage records, of ancestors and relatives from Wielkopolskie and Kujawsko-Pomorskie prior to about 1820. In certain surnames for euphonic reasons the suffix was attached to the masculine version of the surname by modifying that form. Some examples are: Gorny (masculine) became Gornianka (single feminine), Przymusiak (masculine) became Przymuszanka (single feminine) and Nyczak (masculine) became Nyczanka and occasionally Nyczonka (single feminine). Although as far as I know these usages are no longer employed in Poland, they are important for historical reasons and for understanding records from the times and places were these forms were commonly in use.

It is variety which makes life interesting.

Dave

karolmarcinik

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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:36 am Post subject:

Dave, thanks for your very interesting additions. See a few comments/questions below.

dnowicki wrote:

In regard to Thecla vs. Tecla, both spellings are found in Latin documents. The reason for the variation is found in the nature of the letter "H" which is not a true consonant but rather is an asperate, i.e. a rough breathing of the vowel which follows. "H" is how the Latin (Roman) alphabet signified the rough breathing found in the Classical Greek alphabet and is a rather late addition to the Latin alphabet.
Dave

I am not an expert in this area, but I have a minor (and growing) background in applied linguistics which actually grew out of my study of Koine Greek (Greek from approx. 300 BC - 300 AD). So, your comments above were meaningful to me. I have no training in Latin, however--only some minor exposure from the records I have been researching for my ancestors. However, it seems that you do have a good grasp on Latin, so I would like to ask you something about the record we've been discussing here.

But first, I would like to better understand the use of the Latin letter 'h' to correspond to the Greek rough breathing. For the Koine period, the rough breathing came into play with omicron and rho. As I intimated, I do not know anything about Latin phonology, but how would the 'h' in Thecla relate to the rough breathing found in Greek?

My Latin question concerns the use of the Latin word natae in the record that I provided. I noted that in the case of the paternal grandparents, the word was inserted between the grandmother's given name and maiden name (i.e., "Franciscae natae Murgawcy"); however, in the case of the maternal grandparents, it follows the grandmother's last name (i.e., "Victoriae Sadlik natae"). Is there a grammatical reason for this? I find it interesting that in the first case, for whatever reason, he rendered the maiden name in the plural; but apparently in the second case in the nominative singular.

Also, just to follow up on Elzbieta's observations, I want to make sure I understand this: though some Polish surnames do not have a separate feminine form, all names will follow a certain declension and therefore will inflect depending on their use in a sentence. Is this a correct understanding?

Once again, thank you for your assistance.

karolmarcinik

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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:50 am Post subject:

dnowicki wrote:

Dave,
I've observed this as well, though I think I am learning about these matters the hard way Smile

. Is there a reference you could point me to that would educate me a little more on some of these subtleties? Or at least get me started? In fact, most of my interest here is historical, relating (so far) to Polish records in the 19th century and early 20th century. But, yes I ran into a similar matter with one of my great-grandmothers from the same village. In America we knew her as "Catherine Podgadski" (though there were variations in spelling of the last name; no one really knew how to spell it, so I tend to think it was an attempt at a phonetic spelling). On the records I've obtained so far with her maiden name on them she appears as Katarzyna Podgacka.

Kind Regards,
Karol

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:35 pm Post subject:

Karol,
My education (M.A.) was in Classical Languages (Greek & Latin) and in my younger days (now retired) I taught Latin (and for a month while the other teacher was out) the elementary Greek class on the high school level. While I studied Attic and Ionic and Koine Greek I have much more experience with Latin. I also taught Spanish for Native Speakers (ironic since my native language is good old American English) and also a class in modern Polish literature, but all that is another story. Anyway, since it was necessary to have at least 20 hours of college credit in the subjects one taught, I went back to Loyola and got the Spanish and Polish credits by exam.
To answer your first question, the rough breathing in Greek could be used on any vowel when it appeared at the beginning of a word. In Latin the letter h signified the roughness of vowels anywhere in a word so it does not correspond exactly to the Greek usage. Latin borrowed the rough breathing from Greek and adapted it to suit the needs of Latin words. Another way of looking at rough breathings not at the beginning of a word would be the way the name of the Chicago Bears is pronounced. Most of the English speaking world will say "The Bears" where you get a weak h sound in "The" but the stereotypical Chicago pronunciation would be to eliminate the h sound and say "Da Bears."

I will have to continue later. My wife keeps pointing to her watch to remind me that we are going to visit my nephew and his family. More will follow.

Vale,
Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:07 pm Post subject:

Karol,

To get back to your questions....Perhaps a better way to explain what I meant to convey when I said that Latin borrowed the rough breathing from Greek would be to say that Latin borrowed the concept of symbolizing the rough breathing from Greek. Obviously in Greek the rough breathing is signified by a mark over a vowel whereas in Latin it is symbolized by a separate letter---"H". As far as I recall, in Greek the rough breathing is used only on the initial vowel or diphthong of a word whereas in Latin the asperate H can and does appear before vowels within words. Off hand I cannot recall any vowel or diphthong in Greek which does not sometimes have a rough breathing. A couple of quick examples....the definite article in both the masculine and feminine nominative singular has the rough breathing---in the case of the masculine omicron and for the feminine eta. Another example would the word for horse where there is a rough breathing over the initial iota. Initial vowels in Greek always have either a rough or a smooth breathing mark over them. The rough breathing mark adds the h sound to the vowel whereas the smooth breathing mark does not change the pronunciation of the vowel.

To answer your second question...there is no grammatical reason why the priest placed the participle "natae" in different places in the records of the two sets of grandparents. Although Latin did have a preferred word order in sentences (In Golden Age Latin it was customary to have the main verb at the end of a sentence.) However, word order was changed to give emphasis to certain words and also for no particular obvious reason at all. An old Latin prof I knew, Claude Klarkowski, once said that in the announcement made after the election of a new pope the expression is "Habemus Papam" (We have a pope.) whereas ordinary Latin word order would expect the expression to be "Papam habemus." His guess for the actual word order was to convey the joy that after a time of expectation a new pope had been chosen. Anyway, there is no point in speculating why the priest recorded the data the way he did. He was not composing the great literary work of his life, but was simply filling out a certificate which someone had requested.
In regard to the declension of surnames you are correct that the name would be declined in the seven Polish cases (Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Vocative, Locative and Instrumental). Adjectival surnames would take the endings of adjectives and nominal surnames those of nouns.

Finally, I would like to take some time to think of good resources which explain Polish surnames. It is one of those things I really have not thought about. After years of knowing something it is difficult to recall what resources would be helpful in explaining those things to someone.

If you would like to continue to discuss Greek, Latin, Polish or other linguistic or historical questions perhaps it would be easier to do so via email rather than in this forum. If you would like, we can exchange email addresses via personal messages here at Polish Origins.

I hope the thoughts I've offered may prove to be of use to you.
Dave

karolmarcinik

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Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:49 am Post subject:

Dave,
My interest in Latin is solely related to my records research. My interest in Greek is something completely different which I wish I did have more time for(!). My interest in Polish is also related to my records research, but goes beyond just that. I have Polish heritage, Polish relatives, and a desire to know the language better. Right now, knowing more about Polish names would help (which is why I mentioned potential resources). Our discussion in this forum has been helpful and enriching, and I hope to run into you again on these pages! I am very grateful for your and Elzbieta's help!

Kind Regards,
Karol

Elzbieta Porteneuve
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Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:42 am Post subject:

karolmarcinik wrote:

1.
Also, just to follow up on Elzbieta's observations, I want to make sure I understand this: though some Polish surnames do not have a separate feminine form, all names will follow a certain declension and therefore will inflect depending on their use in a sentence. Is this a correct understanding?

2.
In America we knew her as "Catherine Podgadski" (though there were variations in spelling of the last name; no one really knew how to spell it, so I tend to think it was an attempt at a phonetic spelling). On the records I've obtained so far with her maiden name on them she appears as Katarzyna Podgacka.

Karol

Karol,

Re:1 Yes

Re:2 Let's apply Polish rules to the name Podgacki (which has feminine and masculine form) and to Sadlik (which has not).

But before, let's make some consideration on that name depending on the country of birth.

The Father of Katarzyna Podgacka was X. Podgacki. That is Polish grammar rule, valid in Poland.

Assume X. Podgacki is an immigrant in France. The French rule is that the name MUST remain invariant (In France you need a court judgment, very hard to obtain, to change anything on a Civil Vital Record, even in a case of typo made by an acting officer). The daughter of X. Podgacki born in France will be Katarzyna Podgacki (An immigrant may ask to apply Polish grammar rule, but it must be done using very formal procedure, and has side effects on next generation).

Assume X. Podgacki and his daughter born in France, recorded Katarzyna Podgacki, and they move back to Poland, she will be Podgacki in Poland, masculine name.

Assume X. Podgacki asked to apply Polish grammar rule in France, his daughter is recorded Katarzyna Podgacka. First, she will have to demonstrate all her life (my own case), that her father is her father, and that her father and her mother have been married - the names differ. Second, in case Katarzyna had a baby as a single mother, if it's a boy, that boy will have a feminine name Podgacka. In other words, it will be written up front on his face, known to anyone with Polish (or Slavic) background that his mother was a single mother.

Let's consider declensions. 7 cases (we always have hints with questions):

1. mianownik (kto? co?)
2. dopełniacz (kogo? czego?)
3. celownik (komu? czemu?)
4. biernik (kogo? co?)
5. narzędnik ((z) kim? (z) czym?)
6. miejscownik (o kim? o czym?)
7. wołacz (–) [to call a person, often equal to 1. mianownik]

1. Podgacki | Podgacka | Sadlik
2. Podgackiego | Podgackiej | Sadlika
3. Podgackiemu | Podgackiej | Sadlikowi
4. Podgackiego | Podgacką [a ogonek] | Sadlika
5. Podgackim | Podgacką [a ogonek] | Sadlikiem
6. Podgackim | Podgackiej | Sadliku
7. Podgacki | Podgacka | Sadlik

Best,
Elzbieta

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