Dubois75
Joined: 06 Jun 2025
Replies: 1
Location: South Dakota, USABack to top |
Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2025 5:18 pm
Post subject: birth record
What does "Nomen at condito" mean on a birth record. Google translate returned "Name and Seasoning" I get the name part but Seasoning?
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MaryV
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marcelproustPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Replies: 4773
Location: PolandBack to top |
Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2025 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: birth record
| Dubois75 wrote: | | What does "Nomen at condito" mean on a birth record. Google translate returned "Name and Seasoning" I get the name part but Seasoning? |
Name and social status
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1533
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Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2025 5:06 am
Post subject: Re: birth record
| Dubois75 wrote: | | What does "Nomen at condito" mean on a birth record. Google translate returned "Name and Seasoning" I get the name part but Seasoning? |
Hi MaryV,
I would like to add to what Marcel has already said.
The phrase is not exactly "nomen at condito" but rather "nomen et conditio." So, et rather than at and conditio rather than condito. Specifically, it is asking for the person's first name. It would have said cognomen if it meant their last name (surname).
Hope this helps.
Sophia
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2950
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2025 9:31 am
Post subject: Re: birth record
| Sophia wrote: | | Dubois75 wrote: | | What does "Nomen at condito" mean on a birth record. Google translate returned "Name and Seasoning" I get the name part but Seasoning? |
Hi MaryV,
I would like to add to what Marcel has already said.
The phrase is not exactly "nomen at condito" but rather "nomen et conditio." So, et rather than at and conditio rather than condito. Specifically, it is asking for the person's first name. It would have said cognomen if it meant their last name (surname).
Hope this helps.
Sophia |
Salvete,
The explanations offered for conditio and nomen are technically correct but are not complete. Latin, like other languages, uses words which are polysemous as well as words which are monosemous. Both conditio and nomen are polysemous. Conditio does describe social status, but that usage was limited to records from the old feudal system. When used in records after the peasants had been emancipated from their feudal obligations the word has the meaning of “occupation”. Emancipation took place in Prussian controlled lands of the partitioned Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1807 and in the Austrian Partition (Galicia) in 1848 and, finally, in the Russian Partition (The Kingdom of Poland/Królestwo Polskie) in 1864.
Nomen includes much more than what is commonly known as one’s “First Name”. From Antiquity on the word could, and did, include the praenomen, the nomen itself (the name of the gens to which the individual belonged, as well as the cognomen. Consider the nomen Julius Caesar whose full name was Gaius Julius Caesar. His praenomen was Gaius and he was of the Julian gens/clan and was descended from an ancestor named Caesar. When a column heading is titled “Nomen” the information to be entered is not limited to a “first name” but can and often does include the person’s surname. This especially was true of late 18th Century records through records prior to the end of WWI from Galicia. Since according to Mary’s profile page the locations she is researching are in woj. podkarpackie logic dictates that the heading about which she asked comes from a record used in Galicia. Birth records from that time and place use the heading “Nomen” to include both the individual’s given name and surname. The suggestion that a column titled “Nomen et Cognomen” is necessary is not supported by the actual birth registers. The scholastic philosophers of the Middle Ages would have termed the statement that the additional column should or needs to exist as an idea which is “sine fundamento in re”/without foundation in reality. The statement could have been accurate if the word “Nomen” were monosemous, but the fact is that it is not. The bottom line is that the suggestion needs to be discarded, which may sound like a harsh solution. However it is not as harsh as it sounds contributors who have expended their time and energy to aid those beginning their genealogical journey certainly wish to share the best and most accurate information possible and eliminate information which is potentially misleading. The “harsh” solution I have offered is not some sort of shooting from the hip personal opinion but is based on my actual experience of doing translations of more birth records from Galicia than I care to think about.
Valete,
Dave
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SophiaPO Top Contributor
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1533
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 5:06 am
Post subject: Re: birth record
| dnowicki wrote: |
Salvete,
The explanations offered for conditio and nomen are technically correct but are not complete. Latin, like other languages, uses words which are polysemous as well as words which are monosemous. Both conditio and nomen are polysemous. Conditio does describe social status, but that usage was limited to records from the old feudal system. When used in records after the peasants had been emancipated from their feudal obligations the word has the meaning of “occupation”. Emancipation took place in Prussian controlled lands of the partitioned Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1807 and in the Austrian Partition (Galicia) in 1848 and, finally, in the Russian Partition (The Kingdom of Poland/Królestwo Polskie) in 1864.
Nomen includes much more than what is commonly known as one’s “First Name”. From Antiquity on the word could, and did, include the praenomen, the nomen itself (the name of the gens to which the individual belonged, as well as the cognomen. Consider the nomen Julius Caesar whose full name was Gaius Julius Caesar. His praenomen was Gaius and he was of the Julian gens/clan and was descended from an ancestor named Caesar. When a column heading is titled “Nomen” the information to be entered is not limited to a “first name” but can and often does include the person’s surname. This especially was true of late 18th Century records through records prior to the end of WWI from Galicia. Since according to Mary’s profile page the locations she is researching are in woj. podkarpackie logic dictates that the heading about which she asked comes from a record used in Galicia. Birth records from that time and place use the heading “Nomen” to include both the individual’s given name and surname. The suggestion that a column titled “Nomen et Cognomen” is necessary is not supported by the actual birth registers. The scholastic philosophers of the Middle Ages would have termed the statement that the additional column should or needs to exist as an idea which is “sine fundamento in re”/without foundation in reality. The statement could have been accurate if the word “Nomen” were monosemous, but the fact is that it is not. The bottom line is that the suggestion needs to be discarded, which may sound like a harsh solution. However it is not as harsh as it sounds contributors who have expended their time and energy to aid those beginning their genealogical journey certainly wish to share the best and most accurate information possible and eliminate information which is potentially misleading. The “harsh” solution I have offered is not some sort of shooting from the hip personal opinion but is based on my actual experience of doing translations of more birth records from Galicia than I care to think about.
Valete,
Dave |
Hi Dave,
You make several good points here. Thanks for the "tune-up" of my all-too-brief explanation to MaryV.
In the end, I suppose it is not much different from viewing a form today which is in English. If it has only one field marked "name" then I would enter my full name, but if it has one field for "name" and another for "surname" then I would divide my name appropriately between those two fields.
Actually, what I found most helpful about what you wrote is the dividing line in time when interpreting "conditio," between pre-emancipation of serfs (social status) and post-emancipation (occupation). That is useful info.
Hope your garden is growing nicely!
Sophia
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