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Almacwik



Joined: 14 Jun 2016
Replies: 13

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:48 pm      Post subject: limanowa birth and baptism & house numbers
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Hi
Im confused, sometimes I will find baptism records for children with same parents, baptized in houses with different numbers.
What is common practice for birth and baptism in Limanowa, Poland?
Is the house # on baptism records where children and parents lived?
We’re children born at home or in hospital?
When couples get married, do they live with parents sometimes, or do they have their own home by the time they are married?
I found a record for for one of my ancestors, with 4 children, but baptism record shows different house numbers. All in same village Limanowa, krakow, Poland. Parents names are also the same.
Can someone explain marriages, birth and baptism practices in 1800.
Im including an image.
Thank you

_________________
I’m searching for family in Limanowa.
Tomás Cwik. Born around 1860. Married a woman named Annie. This is according to grandfathers marriage record.
His name was Franciszek Cwik.
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dnowicki
PO Top Contributor


Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 1869
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:20 pm      Post subject: Re: limanowa birth and baptism & house numbers
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Almacwik wrote:
Hi
Im confused, sometimes I will find baptism records for children with same parents, baptized in houses with different numbers.
What is common practice for birth and baptism in Limanowa, Poland?
Is the house # on baptism records where children and parents lived?
We’re children born at home or in hospital?
When couples get married, do they live with parents sometimes, or do they have their own home by the time they are married?
I found a record for for one of my ancestors, with 4 children, but baptism record shows different house numbers. All in same village Limanowa, krakow, Poland. Parents names are also the same.
Can someone explain marriages, birth and baptism practices in 1800.
Im including an image.
Thank you


Hi,

In 19th Century birth and baptism practices in Limanowa would not have been location/village specific. Although the way records of births were kept varied and was not identical in each of the three areas of partitioned Poland attitudes, customs, and practices surrounding the events of birth and baptism were very similar in the three areas. The children of peasants (and of the majority of szlachta) were born at home and, except children who were in danger of death at and immediately after birth, were baptized at the local parish church. Births generally took place without the presence of a physician and I’ve not seen any birth recorded as having occurred in a hospital. A midwife usually assisted at the birth.

Some things which were specific to records from Galicia (the Austrian Partition), where Limanowa was located, include the following:
1. The house number where the birth took place was included in the record. The house number was that of the house where the parents resided, unless the mother gave birth in another house, such as the home of a relative—not a common occurrence.
2. Records from Galicia usually included the name of the midwife who assisted at the birth. By the middle of the 19th Century Austrian Partition records distinguished two types of midwives—an approved/examined midwife (obstetrix approbata/ obstetrix examinata) and non-approved/examined midwife (obstetrix non approbata/ obstetrix non examinata). It seems that the state had set up a sort of licensing for midwives. However, non-examined/non licensed midwives were able to continue to practice alongside their examined/licensed counterparts. {Note: Information about the midwife who assisted at the birth is found in the actual record, which was kept in Latin. The births indexed on Family Search for Limanowa do not mention the name of the midwife.)

The question of home ownership is a bit more complicated. Just as today in the USA, a portion of the population of 19th Century partitioned Poland never owned real property but lived as tenants all during their life. While some couples were able to improve their economic situation through diligence and effort, a more common way to obtain real property was through inheritance. Couples who did not own a home lived as tenants in the home of another person. Just as renters today tend to change their place of residence, so too tenants in 19th Century Poland often changed their place of residence. In Poland during the time before the partitions, i.e. during the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (known in Polish as Królestwo Polskie i Wielkie Księstwo Litewskie or as Rzeczpostpolita Obojga Narodów) and continuing into the 19th Century there existed various social/economic classes of peasants. Attached in PDF format is a list of the terms used to describe the classes of peasantry. The peasants who made up the higher rungs of the ladder of peasantry owned/controlled their own real property. The list gives the Latin term used to distinguish the classes of peasants followed by the term in Polish and then the English. The lowest group of peasants who owned real property were those described as a turgurinus or coterius (Polish: chałupnik; English cottager). On the other hand, a person listed as an inquilinus (Polish: komornik; English: tenant) owned no real property. Birth & baptism records from Galicia describe the parents in terms of property ownership. The Latin term used in the actual record shows the economic status of the parents and that term can provide an explanation of why children of the same parents were not always born in the same house.

If you have specific questions regarding marriages, I would be happy to try to answer them.

No image ended up being attached to your post. Perhaps you could try to post the image again.

I hope that the explanation answered your birth & baptism questions.

Wishing you success in your research,

Dave



Vocabulary Distinguishing Classes of Peasants, Nobles & Clergy.pdf
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Almacwik



Joined: 14 Jun 2016
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:10 pm      Post subject: Polish birth baptism practices
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Dave, first let me say thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions. This has made things much clearer. I just realized you are from Indiana. I’m doing this for my husbands family. They were from Michigan. I had met my husbands grandfather (Frank ) once before he passed. When I asked him about his father, he said that (Franciszek) his father, did not like to speak of home. And only told him that he worked in salt mines and that when he arrived he lived in Chicago for awhile and then moved to Detroit. So they knew nothing of siblings, or any family. They will be so excited when I present them with their tree.

The Polish records I find either on Ancestory or Family search are indexed copies of baptisms, so they have limited information. I will try again to attach a photo. But just Incase will copy and paste at bottom of this email.
So let me see If I understand this now.
Children are born at home, usually with midwife. When are they baptized? Is it soon after birth? Looks like the dates on baptism records I find are baptism dates and not birth dates? So I’m not sure what to use for a birth date. My ancestors are European Spanish. Births were recorded in a book by a local registrar. Usually by a friend or neighbor would go take care of this. Otherwise the parent took care of it but it could sometimes be weeks or months before child’s birth was recorded.
I also read that children when baptized they would be named after a Saint. Have you heard of this practice.
I wish I could find an actual birth record. But all I seem to find are baptisms. They have name of child, parents names, date of baptism. That’s why I asked how soon after birth we’re children baptized, and if they were baptized in a church, why include a house number. Or was that a way to identify the family.
Here is copy and paste of baptism record/ just Incase my photo doesn’t come through.

"Poland, Tarnow Roman Catholic Diocese Church Books, 1612-1900

Name:
Jacobus Laurentius Cwik
Event Type:
Baptism
Event Date:
20 Jul 1817
Event Place:
Limanowa, Limanowa, Kraków, Poland
House Number:
58
Gender:
Male
Father's Name:
Michael Cwik
Mother's Name:
Elisabeth Wieczorkowa
Volume Beginning Year:
1785
Volume Ending Year:
So would you say that house number is where family lived.

Here is a sibling with different house number. There were 4 sons, each baptism record shows different house numbers.

Name:
Andreas Thomas Cwik
Event Type:
Baptism
Event Date:
27 Nov 1819
Event Place:
Limanowa, Limanowa, Kraków, Poland
House Number:
67
Gender:
Male
Father's Name:
Michael Cwik
Mother's Name:
Elisabeth Wiezorkowski
Volume Beginning Year:
1785
Volume Ending Year:

The information on home ownership is very interesting. I didn’t know that. Have you ever seen a photo of homes from that time period.

Thank you, let me know what you think.
Happy New Years Smile Smile



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_________________
I’m searching for family in Limanowa.
Tomás Cwik. Born around 1860. Married a woman named Annie. This is according to grandfathers marriage record.
His name was Franciszek Cwik.
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dnowicki
PO Top Contributor


Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 1869
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:02 pm      Post subject: Re: Polish birth baptism practices
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Almacwik wrote:
Dave, first let me say thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions. This has made things much clearer. I just realized you are from Indiana. I’m doing this for my husbands family. They were from Michigan. I had met my husbands grandfather (Frank ) once before he passed. When I asked him about his father, he said that (Franciszek) his father, did not like to speak of home. And only told him that he worked in salt mines and that when he arrived he lived in Chicago for awhile and then moved to Detroit. So they knew nothing of siblings, or any family. They will be so excited when I present them with their tree.

The Polish records I find either on Ancestory or Family search are indexed copies of baptisms, so they have limited information. I will try again to attach a photo. But just Incase will copy and paste at bottom of this email.
So let me see If I understand this now.
Children are born at home, usually with midwife. When are they baptized? Is it soon after birth? Looks like the dates on baptism records I find are baptism dates and not birth dates? So I’m not sure what to use for a birth date. My ancestors are European Spanish. Births were recorded in a book by a local registrar. Usually by a friend or neighbor would go take care of this. Otherwise the parent took care of it but it could sometimes be weeks or months before child’s birth was recorded.
I also read that children when baptized they would be named after a Saint. Have you heard of this practice.
I wish I could find an actual birth record. But all I seem to find are baptisms. They have name of child, parents names, date of baptism. That’s why I asked how soon after birth we’re children baptized, and if they were baptized in a church, why include a house number. Or was that a way to identify the family.
Here is copy and paste of baptism record/ just Incase my photo doesn’t come through.

"Poland, Tarnow Roman Catholic Diocese Church Books, 1612-1900

Name:
Jacobus Laurentius Cwik
Event Type:
Baptism
Event Date:
20 Jul 1817
Event Place:
Limanowa, Limanowa, Kraków, Poland
House Number:
58
Gender:
Male
Father's Name:
Michael Cwik
Mother's Name:
Elisabeth Wieczorkowa
Volume Beginning Year:
1785
Volume Ending Year:
So would you say that house number is where family lived.

Here is a sibling with different house number. There were 4 sons, each baptism record shows different house numbers.

Name:
Andreas Thomas Cwik
Event Type:
Baptism
Event Date:
27 Nov 1819
Event Place:
Limanowa, Limanowa, Kraków, Poland
House Number:
67
Gender:
Male
Father's Name:
Michael Cwik
Mother's Name:
Elisabeth Wiezorkowski
Volume Beginning Year:
1785
Volume Ending Year:

The information on home ownership is very interesting. I didn’t know that. Have you ever seen a photo of homes from that time period.

Thank you, let me know what you think.
Happy New Years Smile Smile


Hi Alma,

You would need to contact the parish in Limanowa or the archives of the Archdiocese of Tarnów in order to obtain images of the actual records which you need. I presume that using Polish would be a problem for you. However, Family Search does have a guide for writing in Polish to request records which could be adapted for email. Here is a link to the guide: https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Poland_Letter_Writing_Guide Here is a link to the holdings of records for Limanowa in the parish itself https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=4276 and here is a link to the archives of the Archdiocese of Tarnów http://archiwum.diecezja.tarnow.pl/kontakt.html

Children were usually baptized soon after birth and sometimes on the day of their birth or on the following day. The RC Church directed that baptisms take place soon after birth. Soon was a relative term which had various cultural interpretations. In the Polish culture, that meant quickly after birth—certainly within a few days. I’ve had many Spanish speaking friends from Mexico since the days of my youth. In Mexican culture soon meant when the padrinos could make it for the baptism and when all the ducks were in order para la fiesta—that could be a year or more after birth.

The dates on Family Search are those of the baptism and not of the birth so without the actual record it is not possible to determine the exact date of birth with certitude. The Austrian Partition records of births & baptisms, marriages, and deaths & burials are in Latin and served as both ecclesiastical records and as civil transcripts of vital stats. Both my maternal and my paternal ancestors were from other parts of Poland and so my personal experience with the Austrian Partition is limited to translations and to helping others with their research. The house number was included because that was information the Austrian government required for the civil transcripts (as was the name of the midwife). I suppose that the house number helped to identify the family, especially where families with the same surname lived in the same village. Yes, the house number on the record is the house in which the child was born. Yes, children were given the name of a saint but that custom was not limited to just Poland. Spanish speaking countries followed the same practice but perhaps it is not always easy to see that relationship to a saint. I had friends named Juan de la Cruz (after St. John of the Cross) and Calixto (after St. Callistus who was a pope) and Maria Guadalupe (after the BVM), and Consuelo (after Nuestra Senora de Consolacion).

For some villages there are maps from the 19th Century which give the locations of house numbers. However, I have no personal experience with those maps. There are others on the forum who could better direct you in regard to the maps. Poland has outdoor ethnographic museums which in a sense are similar to Greenfield Village in Michigan. Again, I have no personal experience with those from southern Poland. Those from the region where my ancestors lived have sites on the internet with pictures of typical structures from various periods from the late 1700s through the 1930s. Perhaps someone with ancestors from Galicia could direct you to the museum sites from that area.

If you have additional questions please don’t hesitate to ask and if I am able, I will try to answer them.

BTW it is a wonderful thing which you are doing for your husband’s family.

Happy New Year.

Dave
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Almacwik



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Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:41 pm      Post subject:
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Dave your so sweet. Thank you again for all your help. I will try searching for maps from that time period
again. As well as post on here as well.
Your right about Padrinos being on their time. As well Spanish speaking countries using Saints names for children. They must of run out, because having 10-13 kids, I have found several instances in my own tree where there were several children named Juan, they would then add different middle names to distinguish between them. Or Maria’s. Can you imagine that now. I’m glad I only had 4 kids. My paternal grandmother had 14. Bless her soul.
If you ever need help with Spanish, Italian or Brazilian Portuguese translations, I’m pretty fluent, I may be able to help. If I can read the record. Sometimes they are in such bad condition.
Thank god for those records. Otherwise we would not be able to this.
For me I love history and enjoy reading about the lives of my ancestors. I also want my kids to know what their ancestors had to endure for us to be here today.
One last question, I promise. Do you know how the Polish travelled to Bremen to board the ships in mid 19th century. Did they take trains, or what?
Well perhaps we may be able to meet someday. My husband has a brother in Indiana. I also use to work for ATA airlines. I’m sad they are gone.
Have a great rest of your weekend.
Happy Hunting

_________________
I’m searching for family in Limanowa.
Tomás Cwik. Born around 1860. Married a woman named Annie. This is according to grandfathers marriage record.
His name was Franciszek Cwik.
View user's profile
Send private message
dnowicki
PO Top Contributor


Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 1869
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:30 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Almacwik wrote:
Dave your so sweet. Thank you again for all your help. I will try searching for maps from that time period
again. As well as post on here as well.
Your right about Padrinos being on their time. As well Spanish speaking countries using Saints names for children. They must of run out, because having 10-13 kids, I have found several instances in my own tree where there were several children named Juan, they would then add different middle names to distinguish between them. Or Maria’s. Can you imagine that now. I’m glad I only had 4 kids. My paternal grandmother had 14. Bless her soul.
If you ever need help with Spanish, Italian or Brazilian Portuguese translations, I’m pretty fluent, I may be able to help. If I can read the record. Sometimes they are in such bad condition.
Thank god for those records. Otherwise we would not be able to this.
For me I love history and enjoy reading about the lives of my ancestors. I also want my kids to know what their ancestors had to endure for us to be here today.
One last question, I promise. Do you know how the Polish travelled to Bremen to board the ships in mid 19th century. Did they take trains, or what?
Well perhaps we may be able to meet someday. My husband has a brother in Indiana. I also use to work for ATA airlines. I’m sad they are gone.
Have a great rest of your weekend.
Happy Hunting


Hi,

Thank you very much for your kind words and generous offer.

Your experience of your ancestors having large families is pretty much the same for families in 19th Century rural partitioned Poland. Going back to the late 1600s the vast majority of my ancestral families had between 8 and 12 children. Hands down the favorite name for girls was Maryanna (Mary)—just about every family had one. Some of the records hint that when the parents couldn’t think of a name for the 11th or 12th child they must have asked the parish priest for the name of a saint whose feast day was close to the day the child was being baptized. Otherwise how can one explain a Polish girl being given a name like Julianna de Falco?

Something I should have mentioned yesterday—the detailed village maps from Galicia are called cadastral maps and there are quite a few threads on the PO Forum where they have been discussed.

Regarding travel to ports of embarkation—The two main ports in Germany used by Polish emigrants were Bremen and Hamburg. My ancestors who immigrated to the USA traveled by rail (after hoofing it from the village where they lived to the closest railway stop). Almost all my ancestors from German Poland sailed out of Bremen to the Port of Baltimore whereas those from Russian Poland usually departed from Hamburg to the Port of New York. It was no accident that those who sail from Bremen had tickets to Baltimore. In 1868 North German Lloyd (Norddeutscher Lloyd) and the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad entered into an agreement for joint marketing to potential immigrants. Agents made the rounds of villages in Poland and sold tickets to those who wished to emigrate from Poland. Many immigrants purchased “package deal” tickets for the steamship and rail travel to their final destination in the US since the B&O served many of the main immigrant destinations in the Midwest.

It would have been convenient for emigrants from Limanowa to travel by train to Bremen since Limanowa was a stop on the Austrian State RR (cf. attached map of Galicia. Limanowa appears as Limanova). Perhaps by using the Galicia map with the attached map of principal rail lines in Central Europe you can have a good idea of a route the Cwik family may have used.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave



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Sophia



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Post Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:59 am      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:


Something I should have mentioned yesterday—the detailed village maps from Galicia are called cadastral maps and there are quite a few threads on the PO Forum where they have been discussed.

Dave


Hi Almacwik and Dave,
Here is a link to a cadastral map of Stara Wies, Limanowa, from the 1840's.
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/29/280/0/10.1/1971?q=Stara+Wies+Limanowa+XTYPEro:jkar+XSKANro:t&wynik=1&rpp=15&page=1#tabSkany
At first, Almacwik, you may find it difficult to navigate through the pages, but if you are patient with it, you will find a very detailed map, too large to fit on one page, so it is broken up into several pieces.
If I've done this link correctly, then you will see a page that has 14 jpg images on it. I particularly like Image 7, you might start with that one -- click on it, and it will enlarge a little bit. Now, look at the lower right-hand part of the image. There is a big "Z" and next to that is another icon, I don't know what to call it, but if one squints at it one can see that it shows a screen being enlarged, so that is the one you want to click on next. It will then take more than a few seconds for the image to load. Once it loads, you can further enlarge the image using the magnifying glass icon in the upper left. I hope these instructions get you to the point where you can clearly see the map. If not, let me know.
Good luck!
Sophia
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Almacwik



Joined: 14 Jun 2016
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:47 pm      Post subject:
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Sofia,

Thank you very much for that link. I will try to see if I can navigate through them.

Alma

_________________
I’m searching for family in Limanowa.
Tomás Cwik. Born around 1860. Married a woman named Annie. This is according to grandfathers marriage record.
His name was Franciszek Cwik.
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Almacwik



Joined: 14 Jun 2016
Replies: 13

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:52 pm      Post subject: Maps
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Sofia
Thanks again for the maps. I did go through and open them. Are these maps of streets, or home sites. Having trouble figuring out exactly what they are.
Alma

_________________
I’m searching for family in Limanowa.
Tomás Cwik. Born around 1860. Married a woman named Annie. This is according to grandfathers marriage record.
His name was Franciszek Cwik.
View user's profile
Send private message
Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 428

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:06 pm      Post subject: Re: Maps
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Almacwik wrote:
Sofia
Thanks again for the maps. I did go through and open them. Are these maps of streets, or home sites. Having trouble figuring out exactly what they are.
Alma


Hi Alma,
As cadastral maps go, this one is not the most helpful. It does show the lay of the land. You can see the "bach" (creek) with a frilly arrow indicating the direction of the current, and in another view there is a "wald" (forest). You can see property lines, and when there are small rectangles on them, those are buildings. You can see the roads, and differentiate areas that are under cultivation from those that aren't. From this, it is sometimes possible to go to Google maps and match up recognizable features of the land from cadastral maps with today's map. I'm sure that would be a more interesting pursuit if you could decipher where, specifically, your family lived in Stara Wies.
What is usually present on these maps are the house numbers. This Stara Wies / Limanowa seems to be a sparsely populated place, at least in 1845. There are notes added in, but nothing that points specifically to the Cwik family. Then again, not sure they were landowners. Sorry that it is not a more spectacular find.
Best,
Sophia



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Almacwik



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:29 pm      Post subject: Maps
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Sophia
Now it makes more sense. Thank you. I have house numbers for them. Did they not have street names.
I was hoping to find photos or maps of actual homes with house numbers.
Thank you
Alma

_________________
I’m searching for family in Limanowa.
Tomás Cwik. Born around 1860. Married a woman named Annie. This is according to grandfathers marriage record.
His name was Franciszek Cwik.
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Send private message
Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 428

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:18 pm      Post subject: Re: Maps
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Almacwik wrote:
Sophia
Now it makes more sense. Thank you. I have house numbers for them. Did they not have street names.
I was hoping to find photos or maps of actual homes with house numbers.
Thank you
Alma


Hi Alma,
Villages typically have no street names. Larger towns/cities do.
It may be that the map you seek exists, with numbered houses, and made in a year close enough to the year of the records of the family you are researching that you can match them up (note that re-numbering did happen, over time). However, when I searched the Polish archives online site, this was all I could find. I limited my search to items which they have digitized and put online. So, there may be other maps, just not online.
Good luck with it,
Sophia
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Almacwik



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Post Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:52 pm      Post subject: Maps
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Sofia
I appreciate your help. Thank you so much.
Alma

_________________
I’m searching for family in Limanowa.
Tomás Cwik. Born around 1860. Married a woman named Annie. This is according to grandfathers marriage record.
His name was Franciszek Cwik.
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Send private message
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