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a4u2fear



Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 188
Location: NY/USA

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:20 pm      Post subject: Koluda Wielka
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A whole family I am researching has six children from 1833 to 1846, all in the Ludzisko parish of Mogilno, (specifically all born in Koluda Wielka).

They have a seventh child in there as well that I cannot find, unfortunately it is the grandmother I'm most interested in.

I have looked ad nauseum in these years and before 1833 and after 1846 with no luck. The child's approximate birth is 1836 from a marriage document, and on each of her parents death notices they list their kids in order of birth age and she is listed as the second oldest putting her in the 1834-1835 birth range.

So, this child is either adopted (i'm guessing from another family member), or the parish page book is missing. It doesn't make sense it would be in a different parish since the 1833 and 1836 child were from Koluda Wielka (though, i guess it's possible).

Is there another parish I should be looking at that may have another birth notice somewhere?

All of the kids birth notices were in
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1041286?availability=Family%20History%20Library
film 8121476

Maybe civil documents exist somewhere?

Thank you
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Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 559

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:47 pm      Post subject: Re: Koluda Wielka
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a4u2fear wrote:
A whole family I am researching has six children from 1833 to 1846, all in the Ludzisko parish of Mogilno, (specifically all born in Koluda Wielka).

They have a seventh child in there as well that I cannot find, unfortunately it is the grandmother I'm most interested in.

I have looked ad nauseum in these years and before 1833 and after 1846 with no luck. The child's approximate birth is 1836 from a marriage document, and on each of her parents death notices they list their kids in order of birth age and she is listed as the second oldest putting her in the 1834-1835 birth range.

So, this child is either adopted (i'm guessing from another family member), or the parish page book is missing. It doesn't make sense it would be in a different parish since the 1833 and 1836 child were from Koluda Wielka (though, i guess it's possible).

Is there another parish I should be looking at that may have another birth notice somewhere?

All of the kids birth notices were in
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1041286?availability=Family%20History%20Library
film 8121476

Maybe civil documents exist somewhere?

Thank you


Hi,
It's an interesting puzzle. I took a quick look at the film you cited, and I'm seeing records in Latin. For the six children that you have found, and for the parents' death records, are all of them also in Latin?
Sophia
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a4u2fear



Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 188
Location: NY/USA

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:24 pm      Post subject:
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yes all of the records are in latin
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2048
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:48 pm      Post subject: Re: Koluda Wielka
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Sophia wrote:
a4u2fear wrote:
A whole family I am researching has six children from 1833 to 1846, all in the Ludzisko parish of Mogilno, (specifically all born in Koluda Wielka).

They have a seventh child in there as well that I cannot find, unfortunately it is the grandmother I'm most interested in.

I have looked ad nauseum in these years and before 1833 and after 1846 with no luck. The child's approximate birth is 1836 from a marriage document, and on each of her parents death notices they list their kids in order of birth age and she is listed as the second oldest putting her in the 1834-1835 birth range.

So, this child is either adopted (i'm guessing from another family member), or the parish page book is missing. It doesn't make sense it would be in a different parish since the 1833 and 1836 child were from Koluda Wielka (though, i guess it's possible).

Is there another parish I should be looking at that may have another birth notice somewhere?

All of the kids birth notices were in
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1041286?availability=Family%20History%20Library
film 8121476

Maybe civil documents exist somewhere?

Thank you


Hi,
It's an interesting puzzle. I took a quick look at the film you cited, and I'm seeing records in Latin. For the six children that you have found, and for the parents' death records, are all of them also in Latin?
Sophia


Hi Andrew & Sophia,

Transcripts of the Latin parish registers were the civil vital records in German Poland until the establishment of free standing registry offices in 1874. The records on Family Search are copies of the same registers which had been sent to the archdiocesan archives in Gniezno. Another copy (presumably the first (original copy) is housed in the parish itself (Births begin with 1675.). Other copies (the civil transcripts) are housed in Polish National Archive in Bydgoszcz, branch in Inowrocław and include births from 1815 to 1874. It is doubtful that they contain entries not found in the copy in the archdiocesan archive. In my opinion, if there exists a copy which could include an entry omitted in the copy in the archdiocesan archive, the most likely location of such a copy would be in the parish itself. Anytime multiple handwritten copies of a document are made the chances of errors increases with how far removed the copy is from the original. This is why critical editions of ancient works like the works of Greek & Latin antiquity as well as the New Testament contain a critical apparatus which lists the variant readings as well as the manuscript sources in which those variants are found. But that is another topic which is probably not of general interest.

A thought regarding the likelihood of the child having been baptized in a different parish—a column in the register which may contain a clue is the one with the heading “Status, ars et conditio vitae patris”. If the father is recorded as “inquilinus/tenant” or “servus/servant” or “incola/inhabitant” or something similar in the early years it would mean that he owned no real property, which would make his connection to a village and a parish a bit tenuous. In that case a move to another village/parish would be quite possible and perhaps even likely. If, on the other hand, he was recorded during the same time period in terms that indicated property ownership, movement to another village & parish would be less likely. Something to consider is that early in the marriage he may have been landless and moved to another village and parish and then returned either when he inherited property or was able to acquire real property through his own efforts. The status column often provides information which can clarify the family's economic status through the years.

Just thought that I would offer some possibilities for consideration.

Dave
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Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Post Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:47 am      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
yes all of the records are in latin


Hi,
Well, that eliminates my hypothesis. I will explain, anyway, in case it interests you. Depending on what partition of Poland you were in, and what year it was, your name could appear in several languages. A Polish woman with the name Katarzyna, living in the Russian partition, would be Catharina in a Latin record and (taking into account the Cyrillic alphabet) she would be Ekaterina in a Russian document. Similarly, someone who is looking for their ancestor Aniela in a list of Latin baptisms might scroll right past Angela without realizing the connection. My thought was that perhaps in your list of six children there is a name that actually is the one you are looking for but you don't recognize it as such. However, if you have the parents' death record which lists the children and you have the baptisms, and all of these are in Latin, my hypothesis does not apply.
Your idea of an adopted child has some merit, and you could test that idea by going back through the records in the appropriate years and looking at all of the girls who were given the first name you seek, regardless of surname, and then seeing whether you can construct a connection of that family to yours. Tedious, by why not try?
Dave has given an excellent explanation for how errors and omissions occurred, and I wish you good luck in finding the record you want.
Best,
Sophia
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mcdonald0517
PO Top Contributor & Patron


Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 668

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:09 pm      Post subject:
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Here is the link to the Kartenmeister database entry for Koluda Wielka. It provides locations of the Catholic and Protestant parishes (I suggest checking both). Note the German name of the village is Gross Koluda.

http://kartenmeister.com/preview/City.asp?CitNum=30448

Also, here is the Meyers Gazateer for Koluda Wielka (Gross Koluda in German). Select the tab “Ecclesiastical” to see alternative parishes and their distance from the village. Note all locations are the German versions.

https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10644026

Good luck,
Cynthia
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a4u2fear



Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 188
Location: NY/USA

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:00 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you all for the detailed posts.

This one will be a tough one, but hey you never know! I'm an engineer and love solving puzzles.

At least, I have never seen that website that lists the distances from parish to parish and I can definitely see that being useful.

Will come back with good news i hope
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