Forum | PolishOrigins :: View topic - Godparents in parish church records

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galicia seeker

Joined: 30 Apr 2021
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 1:08 pm Post subject: Godparents in parish church records

This may sound like a silly question but after looking at literally hundreds of birth/baptism records and recognizing some of the players there seem to be times when a godparent noted lived a long ways away.

If the baptism took place on the same day as the birth or the day after, how would the godparent know when to be there and was a physical presence always a necessity?

I've also read somewhere that the mother did not attend the baptism?

Any insight would be hugely appreciated!

dnowicki
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Location: Michigan City, Indiana
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Godparents in parish church records

galicia seeker wrote:

Hi Gail,,

Actually neither the mother nor the father of the infant usually was present at the baptismal ceremony. There was no role for the parents in the baptismal ritual prior to the reforms of Vatican II. In fact, there was no special rite of baptism for children. The Church used the adult rite for children. (Hence no role for the parents.) The primary players were the child, the sponsors aka godparents, and the priest. In the early days of Christianity baptisms were those of adult converts. Only one sponsor was required and the sponsor vouched for the new convert and acted as a “mentor” for that person. It was not uncommon for children not to be baptized until they were able to decide for themselves if they wanted to be baptized. (E.G. St. Augustine of Hippo (the author of the famous works, The Confessions & The City of God, whose mother was St. Monica, was not baptized until he was an adult and had a son born out of wedlock. An example of the parents not being present at their child’s baptism is found in the flick The Godfather. Michael is the godfather for his sister’s child and during the part of the ceremony where the sponsors speak for the child renouncing evil (3 times) the scene shifts between Michael answering the questions in church and his “soldiers” killing the child’s father, his brother-in-law, in an automobile—not only was the father not present at the baptism but he was being rubbed out while the ceremony was going on.

An additional reason why the mother was not there for the baptism was the custom at the time of the mother no going out in public until after she had received the purification (“Churching”) blessing, a ritual which carried over from the Jewish Faith and which usually took place 30 to 40 days after the birth of a child.

Regarding the question about sponsors/godparents living a distance from the place where the baptism took place...A sponsor/godparent could be represented by a proxy during the actual baptism. (This can still happen.) My maternal uncle was the sponsor/godfather for my younger brother. Our uncle was a pastor of a church in one of the suburbs of Chicago and my brother was baptized in a church on the South Side of the city. 1950 was before expressways and it took well over an hour to travel between the two locations. My uncle had obligations at his own parish and baptisms in the parish where we lived took place after the noon Sunday Mass (about 1p.m.). My maternal grandfather was proxy for his son at his grandson’s baptism. In other words, he stood in for our uncle. The baptismal record lists our uncle as the godfather and there is no mention of my grandfather acting as proxy.

The use of a proxy could explain how someone could be a godparent and not be present for the ceremony.

I hope this explanation helps.

Dave

galicia seeker

Joined: 30 Apr 2021
Replies: 69
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: Godparents in parish church records

Dave,

Absolutely brilliant response - thank you! The proxy aspect answers many questions. I have been looking at one specific baptism record that would have required one of the godparents to travel more than 75 km, most likely on a horse, to get there in time.

My understanding is that the midwife was important in that she presented the facts of the birth.

Again, many thanks for speedy response and adding clarity!

Gail

Tina Ellis

Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:00 am Post subject:

In 1965, my son was baptized in Davis, CA. His uncle in King of Prussia, PA was this godfather by proxy.

galicia seeker

Joined: 30 Apr 2021
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: Godparents in parish church records

Thanks! This is very useful information. And...I am so impressed with folks willing to answering the questions that are roiling around in my head as I try to solve an early 19th illegitimate birth in Galicia.

One last question. The death records are pretty sparse. Hypothetically if a very young baby died, not at birth, and was buried hastily before final rites, would the priest take the information as given or would he have to observe the body to record the death?

I know that this sounds ridiculous but I am not sure that the baby did die and may have been spirited away to be raised by a high ranking family.

Tina Ellis

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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:31 pm Post subject:

It's possible the child was given to a barren female relative to raise. That happened to a cousin of mine in Pennsylvania.

I found a 22 year old cousin in Poland who was adopted by his uncle. Apparently, the uncle's wife was not able to have children, and he needed a son to inherit his estate. The man had two sons. His oldest would be inheriting his estate so his brother adopt the younger son. The priest entered the entry in the book of births. That is the strangest thing I have seen in my search of records.

galicia seeker

Joined: 30 Apr 2021
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 5:23 pm Post subject: Godparents in parish church records

I do realize how implausible my premise seems and in no way did I mean to suggest that a priest would twist the truth. My question relates more to the physical presence of the priest and whether these death records may possibly have been recorded after the fact.

galicia seeker

Joined: 30 Apr 2021
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 5:42 pm Post subject: Godparents in parish church records

Yes perfectly plausible considering that the mother was a servant in a noble household and went on to have several more illegitimate children with no family support. Not an ideal time to have an illegitimate child.

galicia seeker

Joined: 30 Apr 2021
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 6:59 am Post subject: Godparents in parish church records

Tina

Did the priest enter the adoption in the birth records as a 22 year old? Guess with no legal adoption process this would have been the only option? Strange indeed!

Tina Ellis

Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject:

Yes ... his correct age was listed.

mitchellpen56

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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:02 am Post subject:

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Sophia
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Godparents in parish church records

galicia seeker wrote:

Hi,
Broadly speaking, there are two styles of record keeping that were used. One is a fill-in-the-form type of record, often shown as a page with specific column headings. The other is a paragraph format, where the information is put into sentences. Each of these two types of records provides a little insight into the topics you raised in your question.
For the columnar records of birth/baptism, there is a column dedicated to asking whether the birth was legitimate or illegitimate. If illegitimate birth was an incredibly rare thing, this column probably wouldn't exist. The fact is that many births met that criterion. It happened then, it happens now. It's just life.
The paragraph style of records for death (you can go to the Russian records translation thread and just read random samples there) contains words to the effect that the priest was an eye witness to the fact that the person was indeed dead, prior to writing a record of death. This makes the "hasty burial" theory unlikely.
I am not trying to discourage you from exploring theories of what happened to people you find in the records. That is, really, part of the fascination of genealogy.
Best of luck in your search,
Sophia

Tina Ellis

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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:10 pm Post subject:

I wonder if the record could have been recorded in a different parish or gmina. I once found a birth record showing a relative was born in a village quite far from their home in Szurpily. Could your relatives been visiting family elsewhere is a thought. Check the surrounding church and civil records. Sometimes records were not recorded in a church, but can be found in the civil records. I have also had a relative's birth record recorded fives years after she was born. There could have been a revolution, a war or bad weather preventing it to be recorded, and they forgot until later.

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