PolishOrigins Forum

 FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    MemberlistMemberlist    ProfileProfile    Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in    RegisterRegister 
Author
Message
tim_timofey



Joined: 19 Jun 2021
Replies: 28

Back to top
Post Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:03 pm      Post subject: Re: Kiselie/Kiseli, Poland
Reply with quote

Hello I'm looking for this village. below are the naturalization record and the passenger list. They are without a doubt the same person, But on the naturalization record it says Poland and but the passenger list says Russian. Can Anyone help. Much appreciated!

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GP16-93CZ?i=825&cc=1921481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A237M-WZ9

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS9M-SS9M-Y?mode=g&cat=832432
View user's profile
Send private message
dnowicki
PO Top Contributor


Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2296
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

Back to top
Post Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:01 am      Post subject: Re: Kiselie/Kiseli, Poland
Reply with quote

tim_timofey wrote:
Hello I'm looking for this village. below are the naturalization record and the passenger list. They are without a doubt the same person, But on the naturalization record it says Poland and but the passenger list says Russian. Can Anyone help. Much appreciated!

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GP16-93CZ?i=825&cc=1921481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A237M-WZ9

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS9M-SS9M-Y?mode=g&cat=832432


Hi Tim,

The reason one document says Russia and the other Poland is explained by the dates of the two docs. The passenger list is from 1913 and the citizenship papers are from 1928. During the late 18th Century Poland had been partitioned between Prussia, Russia and Austria and did not exist as a political entity from then until after WWI. Paweł/Paul lived in the territory which in 1913 had been controlled by Russia. However, after WWI Poland had once again been restored as an independent political entity known as the (Second) Republic of Poland. In 1928 the village was within the boundaries of the Republic of Poland.

I hope that this answers your question.

Wishing you successful research,

Dave
View user's profile
Send private message
mcdonald0517
PO Top Contributor & Patron


Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 869

Back to top
Post Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:31 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Hi Tim,

Locating this village is a difficult challenge. The village name was likely spelled incorrectly in the documents. Also, his surname is spelled differently in each document. The same for his wife, Ann. So the challenges are multiple. You need the correct Polish or Russian spelling of his surname and the village.

The best chance of finding it is to locate their church marriage record. Typically, our ancestors married in their local ethnic church (Polish Catholic or possibly Russian Orthodox in your case). The priest would be familiar with their language and the geographic regions, so chances are he would record the correct spellings of surnames and villages. Do you know when and where they married?

Also, I found some additional clues that will help locate his origins:

1. Attached is the 1920 census. Again, the surname is spelled incorrectly, but this is him, Annie, and son Nicolas. Note the scribe first wrote Grodno as place of birth then Russia. This is important clue.

2. Also in NJ, I think found his 1917 WWI draft card attached. This also indicates Grodno but I can’t quite make out the first word. “Solum, Solusu, Sohm”????

3. The 1930 census confirms some details: son Nicolas and daughter Mary both born in NJ. Estimated marriage year is 1917. Age of bride at marriage was 17 years. Her age at census was 30. So: 1930 - 30 = 1900 + 17 = 1917. I chose her to calculate because she was most likely the one giving the information to the census taker. Ann is shown as coming from Austria Poland and speaking Ukrainian. That tells me she likely came from a village in the Ukraine

4. Hamburg passenger list gives another variation of the village as Kueli (Kiselie, Kiseli).

5. The death certificate for his son in 1954 indicates his burial ceremony was conducted at a Russian Orthodox Church.

Together, this points to Paul coming from an area called Grodno Region in current Belarus (?). That aligns with the Russian and then Polish assignments on other documents. Here is some information on Grodno Region:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodno_Region

So, to further refine the search, I suggest you work to find their marriage record from the church. Again, do you know where they were married? Some possibilities would be New Jersey (because their first 2 children were born there). Another, more remote possibility is this New York marriage index I found in ancestry.com:

Name: Paul Weremedik
Gender: Male
Marriage License Date: 8 Aug 1916
Marriage License Place: Manhattan, New York City, New York, USA
Spouse:
Anna Wojcicky
License Number: 21890

Interested to hear your thoughts on this and discussion from others in the forum.

Best,
Cynthia






Sent from my iPad



706DB188-16BD-4A79-A8D4-F6AED7131E6F.jpeg
 Description:
1920 census
 Filesize:  1.64 MB
 Viewed:  0 Time(s)

706DB188-16BD-4A79-A8D4-F6AED7131E6F.jpeg



546060BD-046F-4719-83FA-949551609DA6.jpeg
 Description:
WWI draft
 Filesize:  472.47 KB
 Viewed:  0 Time(s)

546060BD-046F-4719-83FA-949551609DA6.jpeg



B019A24D-F31A-44CD-AB52-1F581829FA3D.jpeg
 Description:
1930 census
 Filesize:  1.56 MB
 Viewed:  0 Time(s)

B019A24D-F31A-44CD-AB52-1F581829FA3D.jpeg


View user's profile
Send private message
Send e-mail
tim_timofey



Joined: 19 Jun 2021
Replies: 28

Back to top
Post Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:51 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Cynthia, Thanks for the info. I am helping a friend with his family tree, so I will see what info I can get from him. Also, with my background knowledge in the Russian and Ukrainian language, I know their last name in Russian. My friend felt that he had some Belarussian ethnicity but wasn't sure. Grodno "state" does have 3 villages in different areas Slonim(similar to Solum???) The WWI registration card was a new find.
View user's profile
Send private message
dnowicki
PO Top Contributor


Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2296
Location: Michigan City, Indiana

Back to top
Post Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:15 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

[quote="mcdonald0517"]Hi Tim,

Locating this village is a difficult challenge. The village name was likely spelled incorrectly in the documents. Also, his surname is spelled differently in each document. The same for his wife, Ann. So the challenges are multiple. You need the correct Polish or Russian spelling of his surname and the village.

The best chance of finding it is to locate their church marriage record. Typically, our ancestors married in their local ethnic church (Polish Catholic or possibly Russian Orthodox in your case). The priest would be familiar with their language and the geographic regions, so chances are he would record the correct spellings of surnames and villages. Do you know when and where they married?

Also, I found some additional clues that will help locate his origins:

1. Attached is the 1920 census. Again, the surname is spelled incorrectly, but this is him, Annie, and son Nicolas. Note the scribe first wrote Grodno as place of birth then Russia. This is important clue.

2. Also in NJ, I think found his 1917 WWI draft card attached. This also indicates Grodno but I can’t quite make out the first word. “Solum, Solusu, Sohm”????

3. The 1930 census confirms some details: son Nicolas and daughter Mary both born in NJ. Estimated marriage year is 1917. Age of bride at marriage was 17 years. Her age at census was 30. So: 1930 - 30 = 1900 + 17 = 1917. I chose her to calculate because she was most likely the one giving the information to the census taker. Ann is shown as coming from Austria Poland and speaking Ukrainian. That tells me she likely came from a village in the Ukraine

4. Hamburg passenger list gives another variation of the village as Kueli (Kiselie, Kiseli).

5. The death certificate for his son in 1954 indicates his burial ceremony was conducted at a Russian Orthodox Church.

Together, this points to Paul coming from an area called Grodno Region in current Belarus (?). That aligns with the Russian and then Polish assignments on other documents. Here is some information on Grodno Region:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodno_Region

So, to further refine the search, I suggest you work to find their marriage record from the church. Again, do you know where they were married? Some possibilities would be New Jersey (because their first 2 children were born there). Another, more remote possibility is this New York marriage index I found in ancestry.com:

Name: Paul Weremedik
Gender: Male
Marriage License Date: 8 Aug 1916
Marriage License Place: Manhattan, New York City, New York, USA
Spouse:
Anna Wojcicky
License Number: 21890

Interested to hear your thoughts on this and discussion from others in the forum.

Best,
Cynthia

Hi Cynthia & Tim,

Locating the village will not be easy. In the post WWI Republic of Poland Grodno was both a town and a powiat within what then was województwo białostockie (cf. attached map). In contemporary Europe the town and the powiat is located in Belarus near the border with Poland and with Lithuania. Probably the best option would be the church marriage record, as you wrote. Good old Google shows the Cathedral of St. Nicholas as the only Russian Orthodox church in Manhattan. Here is a link to the website: https://mospatusa.com/stnicholascathedral As far as I was able to learn Orthodox Christians from Belarus belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church in the USA. Family Search has an indexed extract for Paul & Anna’s marriage. It appears that the wedding license was obtained on 8 Aug. 1916, as you posted, and the wedding took place in Manhattan on 13 Aug. 1916. Family Search lists Paul’s parents but the person doing the indexing was not able to read the names of Anna’s parents. Here is the link: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24QF-FG2

As Forrest Gump was wont to say: “And that’s all I have to say about that.”

Good luck with the search.

Dave



Poland 1930 Administrative Districts.png
 Description:
 Filesize:  1.58 MB
 Viewed:  0 Time(s)

Poland 1930 Administrative Districts.png


View user's profile
Send private message
mcdonald0517
PO Top Contributor & Patron


Joined: 27 May 2012
Replies: 869

Back to top
Post Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:34 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

To add to what Dave found,

you can view the original Manhattan New York marriage certificate by going to a Family Research center or library affiliate near you. The film # is 1614518 and the digital image # is 7589693. It is marriage certificate # 19508. Here is the link, but again the images are locked for that line item and must be viewed from a research center or library affiliate near you.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/399474?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Cynthia
View user's profile
Send private message
Send e-mail
tim_timofey



Joined: 19 Jun 2021
Replies: 28

Back to top
Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:38 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Many thanks, folks. I appreciate your time! I will see what my friend says, if he wants to search more thank you
View user's profile
Send private message
tim_timofey



Joined: 19 Jun 2021
Replies: 28

Back to top
Post Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:55 pm      Post subject:
Reply with quote

Hi I did find this different spelling of the village name. I thought maybe it might be of some help

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMN-PN9N?cat=1017791
View user's profile
Send private message
marcelproust
PO Top Contributor


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Replies: 3291
Location: Poland

Back to top
Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:50 am      Post subject:
Reply with quote

In Grodno area there was a village Kisieli located here: https://goo.gl/maps/i7jeN2nJaNqqHhcN6

Maybe this is the village, you are looking for

_________________
My translations are voluntary, but they take a lot of time and effort, so whenever you want to send money it will be a very nice "Thank you" gift to me.
THANK YOU Smile

PAYPAL: [email protected]
View user's profile
Send private message
marierpk



Joined: 28 May 2020
Replies: 28
Location: Pataskala OH USA

Back to top
Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:19 pm      Post subject: Kiselie/Kiseli, Poland
Reply with quote

Here is a link where you can directly request a copy of the marriage record.

https://www.italiangen.org/databases/search/?db=nycgroom
View user's profile
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PolishOrigins Forum Index -> Villages and towns of our ancestors' origins All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB ©

© 2021 COPYRIGHTS BY THE OWNER OF POLISHORIGINS.COM