kzguptaPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:02 pm
Post subject: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch & Ann
I am requesting help with a translation of this document, which I believe is the marriage record for my great-great- grandparents. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Kathy Z.
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:57 am
Post subject: Re: Request for Translation - Marriage Record F Jaroch &
| kzgupta wrote: | | I am requesting help with a translation of this document, which I believe is the marriage record for my great-great- grandparents. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Kathy Z. |
Nr. 3
Czary and Dembe
Dzierzgowo, 11/24 January 1858
At 1:00 p.m.
Witnesses:
Jan Łazick, farmer in Czary, 34 years old and
Jan …..kiewski, 28 years old, residing in Brzozowo Nowe
Religious marriage between:
Franciszek Jaroch, from Dembe, bachelor, 28 (not sure) years old, son of Wojciech and Franciszka (nee Lawendowski)
And
Anna Swierczewski, daughter of Maciej and Jozefa Łaziek (not sure, probably Lazick, as above), 19 years old, born in Krery.
Marriage preceded by three banners, published on 29 December and 5 and ? January, in parishes ??? and Dzierzgowo
Gilberto
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kzguptaPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Replies: 74
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:33 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto,
Thank you so very much for this translation.. It's amazing to me that I can post a 19th century document in the evening and wake up to a translation the next morning !
I think it is very likely, but not certain, that this Franciscek and Anna are my great- great grandparents. But I have some further questions related to the translation and local customs. First, I have three other documents from their lives. In September 1872, they are living in Ruda where my great-grandmother is born. Franciscek is 36 and Anna is 35. In January of 1891, they are living in Maje; and in October 1907 , they are still living in Maje and Franciszek is 76 and Anna is 70. There is is obviously some inconsistency in the reporting of Franciszek's age, but based on these dates, he is most likely about 22 or 23 in the record I posted. Could that be the age rather than ( uncertain) 28 ?
Second, I was surprised to see Anna's surname as Swierczewski. In the other records I have, she is Lazicka or Lazicki. Is there any set of circumstances that you know of, where a woman would use her mother's surname ? Perhaps her father was someone who preceeded Jozefa's marriage to Maciej Swierczewski ? The Anna in this record is a year or two younger than the Anna Lazicki in the others. I wonder if she is the same Anna.
Is it likely that a family would move around this much ? Even in the same parish ( Dzierzgowo ) ?
I would be most interested to hear your further thoughts, or those of other Forum participants.
And finally, You might enjoy knowing that Franciscek and Anna are the parents of my great-grandmother Tekla, who I wrote about in Zenon's Christmas e-mail. It would be great to start the New Year with finding their parents and taking the family back another generation on the Tree !
Best regards,
Kathy
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:25 pm
Post subject:
Kathy,
You are welcome.
Maje, Dembe and Czary are nearby villages, but I could not locate a Ruda around them (there are too many with that name).
I have some famlies in my tree that also moved around nearby villages. I think they moved according to the seasons of different harvests.
A second look at Franciszek's age could be 21 (dwadziescia jeden).
Yes, I think it is possible that Anna was from Jozefa's first marriage. Further research is needed, though.
Same person's age may vary from record to record, I have seen many cases like that.
The other records you have may give you additonal information. I assume they are written in Russian (from June 1868 on) which I cannot read, unfortunately.
Regards,
Gilberto
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:05 pm
Post subject:
Kathy, Gilberto,
I prefer to transcript into Polish first, then translate into English.
It is always tricky to do things on the fly.
In my transcript into Polish attachement I numbered lines for the sake of comparaison to the manuscript. When a word was splitted into two lines, I ended it on the first one.
Text is not allowed as an attachement, therefore I made a PDF.
Line 4. It did happen in the village Dzierzgowie on January 24 [1]
Line 5. year 1858 at 1
Line 6. pm. Knowing what they are doing and with conscious witness presents [2]
Line 7. Jan Lazicki, farmer from Czary, 34 years old,
Line 8. and Jan Rynkowski, 28 years old, the innkeeper
Line 9. from Brzozow Nowy. As of today we celebrate
Line 10. this religious marriage between Franciszek Jaroch in Dembe
Line 11. staying with his parents, single man, age 21
Line 12. born in Luczymin, son of Wojciech and
Line 13. Franciszka born Lewandowska, marriage Jaroch, and Miss
Line 14. Anna Swierczewska, daughter of Maciej and Jozefa born Laziecka, marriage
Line 15. Swierczewski, age 19, in Czary
Line 16. staying with her parents, born in Krety. The marriage ceremony
Line 17. was preceeded by 3 announcements on the following dates: 29th
Line 18. December last year, 5th and 12th January current
Line 19. year in Parishes Malokrzyzowleska and Dzierzgowska, cause
Line 20. announcement was made on both sides. Marriage's lessons were not done.
Line 21. The new married stated they did not sign prenuptial
Line 22. agreement. This document was read by us to the newmarried and theit witness
Line 23. not knowing to read, then signed.
Line 24.
Line 25.
Line 26. notes from transliterator
Line 27. [1] above "24" it is written "12", one can guess "24" is in Polish (universal) calendar and above it is in Russian (12 days of difference)
Line 30. [2] two words "wiadomo czynieni" is probably old Polish, meaning they know what they are doing
Line 31. [3] orthographe, written "kaczmarz", today should be "karczmarz"
Have a very happy New Year 2013
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
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Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:18 pm
Post subject:
A little follow up on names.
This old document states the birth record for each on new married, which should be explained:
Franciszek Jaroch:
son of Wojciech (name Jaroch not written) and Franciszka born Lewandowska
then add "marriage Jaroch" which mean "panstwo Jaroch" in today Polish, "M et Mme Jaroch" in French, and "M and Ms Jaroch" in English.
The similar Anna Swierczewska:
daughter of Maciej (Swierczewski not written) and Jozefa born Laziecka,
Then add "marriage Swierczewski" which mean "panstwo Swierczewscy" in today Polish, or "M and Ms Swierczewski" in English.
Without commas, and a clear template, it might be confused - but no single doubt, Anna was a daughter of her parents !
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:52 pm
Post subject:
| Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote: | Kathy, Gilberto,
I prefer to transcript into Polish first, then translate into English.
It is always tricky to do things on the fly.
In my transcript into Polish attachement I numbered lines for the sake of comparaison to the manuscript. When a word was splitted into two lines, I ended it on the first one.
Text is not allowed as an attachement, therefore I made a PDF.
Line 4. It did happen in the village Dzierzgowie on January 24 [1]
Line 5. year 1858 at 1
Line 6. pm. Knowing what they are doing and with conscious witness presents [2]
Line 7. Jan Lazicki, farmer from Czary, 34 years old,
Line 8. and Jan Rynkowski, 28 years old, the innkeeper
Line 9. from Brzozow Nowy. As of today we celebrate
Line 10. this religious marriage between Franciszek Jaroch in Dembe
Line 11. staying with his parents, single man, age 21
Line 12. born in Luczymin, son of Wojciech and
Line 13. Franciszka born Lewandowska, marriage Jaroch, and Miss
Line 14. Anna Swierczewska, daughter of Maciej and Jozefa born Laziecka, marriage
Line 15. Swierczewski, age 19, in Czary
Line 16. staying with her parents, born in Krety. The marriage ceremony
Line 17. was preceeded by 3 announcements on the following dates: 29th
Line 18. December last year, 5th and 12th January current
Line 19. year in Parishes Malokrzyzowleska and Dzierzgowska, cause
Line 20. announcement was made on both sides. Marriage's lessons were not done.
Line 21. The new married stated they did not sign prenuptial
Line 22. agreement. This document was read by us to the newmarried and theit witness
Line 23. not knowing to read, then signed.
Line 24.
Line 25.
Line 26. notes from transliterator
Line 27. [1] above "24" it is written "12", one can guess "24" is in Polish (universal) calendar and above it is in Russian (12 days of difference)
Line 30. [2] two words "wiadomo czynieni" is probably old Polish, meaning they know what they are doing
Line 31. [3] orthographe, written "kaczmarz", today should be "karczmarz"
Have a very happy New Year 2013 |
Witaj, Ela!
Thanks for filling the gaps.
Just would like to add two notes:
The name of her birth place is Krery (declensioned as Krerach on the record). Two miles southwest of Dzierzgowo.
Lawendowski. I am pretty aware of how common the Lewandowski surname is in Poland (and elsewhere) but I preferred to transcribed as it was in this record. Since I have seen tons of Lawendowski in oldest records I leave it to the researcher further research in order to determine if his/her Lawendowski ended up as Lewandowski or not.
Pozdrawiam,
Gilberto
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Elzbieta PorteneuvePO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 Nov 2012
Replies: 3098
Location: Paris, FranceBack to top |
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:10 pm
Post subject:
You are correct for Lawendowski, the zoom confirms.
Isn't it fun to read old texts Gilberto?
On the second reading, I see that one of witnesses is Jan Lazicki, 34 years old, and, zoom confirms, the name of Jozefa is Lazicka (not Laziecka, as I scripted). It is quite possible Jan and Jozefa are family, brother and sister?
Kathy wrote about Anna Lazicka, 2 years elder that Anna Swierczewska. She could be a younger sister of Jozefa - if Jozefa is 40, she could have a sister 20 years younger, it was quite common at that time to have 15-20 years between the elder child and the youngest one.
Kind regards,
Elzbieta
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:21 pm
Post subject:
| Elzbieta Porteneuve wrote: | You are correct for Lawendowski, the zoom confirms.
Isn't it fun to read old texts Gilberto?
On the second reading, I see that one of witnesses is Jan Lazicki, 34 years old, and, zoom confirms, the name of Jozefa is Lazicka (not Laziecka, as I scripted). It is quite possible Jan and Jozefa are family, brother and sister?
Kathy wrote about Anna Lazicka, 2 years elder that Anna Swierczewska. She could be a younger sister of Jozefa - if Jozefa is 40, she could have a sister 20 years younger, it was quite common at that time to have 15-20 years between the elder child and the youngest one.
Kind regards,
Elzbieta |
Yes, it is, mainly considering I am not a Polish reader. I have just learned how to "decipher" them.
I had noticed the similarity of surnames between Jan and Jozefa. I assume they were brother and sister, due to their ages.
I think both Annas are the same person but that would need to be confirmed through other records. Which is not to say they were not sisters.
Regards
Gilberto
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kzguptaPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Replies: 74
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:13 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto and Elzbieta,
You are both very kind to spend so much time on this translation. I am fascinated by the discussion back and forth.
Now that I know where Anna was born, I think the next step is for me to go back to The Family History Center here and check the microfilms of the Dzierzgowo parish records ( assuming Krery is in the same parish ) which go back to the 1830s. I should be able to find birth records for her and for Franciszek. There were no Indexes for the records in the 1830s, so the shortcut for me, as a non-Polish speaker was to start with the village names in the records. I was also seeing later records for Jaroch children (older than Tekla) and it will be interesting to see what their mother's name is.
I may not be able to get back there for another week or two.
I now feel more certain that this Franciszek is my great -great grandfather. The question is: Did he have two wives both named Anna, or one wife who used a different surname in the marriage record ?
There is a small community named Ruda very close to Dzierzgowo.
I have English translations of the other three records, if either of you would like to see them.
I'm looking forward to further conversation and solving the mystery !
Thank you both again,
Kathy
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:15 am
Post subject:
Kathy,
Currently, Krery is part of the Dzierzgowo parish (see here http://www.diecezjaplocka.pl/index.php?akcja=spis_wyswietlParafie&p_id=53).
Dzierzgowo LDS films:
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw 1808-1810 -- Akta urodzeń 1810-1811 -- Akta małżeństw 1810-1812 -- Akta zgonów 1808-1812 -- Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1819-1821 - FHL INTL Film [ 723621 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1821-1823, 1825 - FHL INTL Film [ 723622 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1826-1835 - FHL INTL Film [ 723623 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1836-1841 - FHL INTL Film [ 723624 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1842-1847 - FHL INTL Film [ 723625 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1848-1855 - FHL INTL Film [ 723626 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1856-1861 - FHL INTL Film [ 723627 ]
Akta urodzeń, małżeństw, zgonów 1862-1865 - FHL INTL Film [ 723628 ]
Akta urodzeń 1866-1876 - FHL INTL Film [ 1808640 Items 3 - 4 ]
Akta małżeństw 1866-1872 - FHL INTL Film [ 1808640 Item 5 ]
Akta małżeństw 1866-1888 -- Akta zgonów 1866-1882 - FHL INTL Film [ 1808641 ]
Akta zgonów 1882-1890 - FHL INTL Film [ 1808642 Items 1-2 ]
Akta zgonów 1891-1899 - FHL INTL Film [ 2084393 Item 5 ]
Gilberto
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kzguptaPolishOrigins Patron
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:00 pm
Post subject:
Thank you again Gilberto. I know that I can access Microfilms 623 and 624, perhaps as soon as next weekend. I will let you know if I find anything. Best, Kathy
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kzguptaPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Replies: 74
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:05 pm
Post subject: Another Jaroch Record
Gilberto, Elzbieta
I went back to my computer and found some older scans with the name Jaroch that were never translated. In Record 119, I can see the names of Wojiech and Franciszka which you identified in the last translation. Perhaps there is some interesting information to be found here ? I still hope to go to the Family History Center this weekend to look for Anna's birth record. Your thoughts are much appreciated... Regards, Kathy
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kzguptaPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Replies: 74
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:40 pm
Post subject: Second Jaroch Record
Here it is.. had some trouble sending earlier... Kathy
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:26 am
Post subject:
119.Grzymki.
Dzierzgowo, 6 December 1862. at 3 p.m.
Wojciech Jaroch, 45 years old, and Jozef Jaroch, 30 years old,
farmers in Grzymki, declared that on December 23 *, at 6 a.m., in Grzymki
passed away Franciszka (nee Lawandowski) Jaroch, 44 years old,
born in Bąki, name of her parents is unknown. She was survived by her husband Wojciech Jaroch.
* = something wrong here. If they declared her death on Dec 6, then she must have died on Nov 23 (Listopada, in polish).
Baki and Grzymki are places around Dziergowo. See mapa.szukacz.pl
Gilberto
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