Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:13 pm
Post subject:
Dave,
Thank you for deciphering, translating, and explaining the Latin words and phrases. Yes, I have seen records of individuals using alternate names; in some records the second name is explicitly written as "alias." "District" also makes sense as a marginal note.
I appreciate your help.
Marilyn
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BobJanPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 18 Apr 2015
Replies: 93
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:25 pm
Post subject: Symbol meaning
Dave, do you know the meaning of the symbol in the boxed birth record. I include the whole page so you can see usage of a circled cross and the double cross. The next record below has many symbols. Does the symbol pertain to the person's name that it is adjacent to to the child?
The meaning could determine if this child could have been one that later marries in a different but nearby town.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:19 am
Post subject:
BeatrixH wrote: | I was wondering if someone could help me with this Latin Record. I was able to make out that it is the marriage of Carl Stenke (Stoke) and Florentine Busse. I'm also curious what is written in the other columns. Carl's parents are listed as Johann Stenke and Rosina Glander. Rosina is actually Carl's stepmother. I wondered if there was anything written about his mother?
Thanks |
BeatrixH,
I presume that the record you posted is from the German Partition so I used a template with the headings which seem to fit the entries in the various columns. The exact Latin wording of the headings may or may not match the copy you have but the entries as translated are accurate. If Rosina is the groom’s stepmother, there is no mention of his birth mother.
I translated the given names into Polish but you can use their English (or another language) version, if you so desire.
The translation follows. I hope that it helps your research.
Dave
Col. 1: Numerus = Number (for the year): missing
Col. 2: Annus et Dies Copulationis = The Year and Day of the Marriage: missing
Col. 3: Nomen Sacerdotis Copulantis = The Name of the Officiating Priest/Minister (lit. of the marrying priest): missing
Col. 4: Nomen et Cognomen Copulatorum, locus habitationis, conditio et professio, et utrum copulatio in ecclesia vel in aedibus privatis subsecuta? = The First Name and Surname of those marrying, (their) place of residence, condition and profession, and whether the marriage followed in a church or in a private building? :The groom: the upright* Karol Stenke, a single young man, a blacksmith (unreadable words); the bride: Florentina Busse, a maiden, also from Kolonia ??? (can’t read the place name). The three announcements of the banns were promulgated---the first on the first day, the second on the eighth day (&) the third on the fifteenth day of the month of February (&) no hidden impediment was detected.
Col. 5: Whether they already had lived in the state of matrimony or if not, whether they remained to this time under the tutelage of (their) parents or guardians: Both had never previously been married and were living under the authority of their parents
Col. 6: Aetas = Age
Col. 6a: Sponsi = Of the Groom: 28
Col. 6b: Sponsae = Of the Bride: 20
Col. 7: Parentes = Parents
Col. 7a: Sponsi = Of the Groom: Jan Stenke at Rosina, married, both of the Evangelical (i.e. Lutheran) Faith
Col. 7b: Sponsae = Of the Bride: Andrzej Busse and Karolina, married, both of the Evangelical (i.e. Lutheran) Faith
Col. 8: Consensus Parentum vel Tutorum = The Consent of the Parents or of the Guardians: They contracted marriage with the consent of their parents on both sides.
Col. 9: Testes = Witnesses: Jan Kinder (illegible word), Karol Mantusek(?), and many other individuals.
Col. 10: Adnotationes = Notations: (Information regarding the witnesses runs into this column.)
NOTE: Honestus/upright was an adjective used to describe an individual as a peasant.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: Symbol meaning
BobJan wrote: | Dave, do you know the meaning of the symbol in the boxed birth record. I include the whole page so you can see usage of a circled cross and the double cross. The next record below has many symbols. Does the symbol pertain to the person's name that it is adjacent to to the child?
The meaning could determine if this child could have been one that later marries in a different but nearby town. |
Bob,
The crosses with double bars and the crosses with circles seem to be symbols devised by the priest for a purpose probably known only to him. Usually when a cross appears with a baptismal record it signifies that the child died.
The cross with the double bars is found on the coat of arms Jagiello, the Grand Duke of Lithuania, but surely a priest in Bavaria would not connect these notations to Lithuania. Crosses with two bars of unequal length are called patriarchal crosses or the cross of Lorraine but again there seems to be no connection to the double crosses in these records. The use of the circle is even more mysterious.
Sorry that I can’t help but the priest was not using symbols in common use in records of this type.
Dave
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BobJanPolishOrigins Patron
Joined: 18 Apr 2015
Replies: 93
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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:53 am
Post subject: Re: Symbol meaning
dnowicki wrote: | BobJan wrote: | Dave, do you know the meaning of the symbol in the boxed birth record. I include the whole page so you can see usage of a circled cross and the double cross. The next record below has many symbols. Does the symbol pertain to the person's name that it is adjacent to to the child?
The meaning could determine if this child could have been one that later marries in a different but nearby town. |
Bob,
The crosses with double bars and the crosses with circles seem to be symbols devised by the priest for a purpose probably known only to him. Usually when a cross appears with a baptismal record it signifies that the child died.
The cross with the double bars is found on the coat of arms Jagiello, the Grand Duke of Lithuania, but surely a priest in Bavaria would not connect these notations to Lithuania. Crosses with two bars of unequal length are called patriarchal crosses or the cross of Lorraine but again there seems to be no connection to the double crosses in these records. The use of the circle is even more mysterious.
Sorry that I can’t help but the priest was not using symbols in common use in records of this type.
Dave |
Well, now at least I know what it is called. I think there is a Bavaria Facebook page; maybe someone there knows. BTW, this town is not far from Lorraine, maybe that godfather had a connection. Google turned up no usage in birth records that I could find. Thanx, Dave
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:33 pm
Post subject: previous post page 134
hello Dave,
I was wondering if you could look at my post from page 134 I think it might have got lost in the shuffle of all the requests you have been getting.
Thanks again,
Hugh
_________________ Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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Tony Swiecicki
Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Replies: 1
Location: CanadaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:13 am
Post subject: Polish Translation - new attempt
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lfgiles3
Joined: 25 Jul 2017
Replies: 6
Location: USABack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:18 am
Post subject: Abbreviation help
Need help in determining what the underlined words on attached mean. Starting with "na"
Are these maiden names? Thanks.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:58 am
Post subject: Re: previous post page 134
ossnhughie wrote: | hello Dave,
I was wondering if you could look at my post from page 134 I think it might have got lost in the shuffle of all the requests you have been getting.
Thanks again,
Hugh |
Hugh,
Here is the translation: Left margin: Michaeliwicz; October 8
Today I baptized Francis, born on the 2nd day of October of Jos. Michaelkiewicz & Veronica Symkiewicz. The sponsors were J??? Sy__kow?ki (&) Josephine Sy__kopki.
Illegible signature of the priest.
I can’t tell you who were the sponsors since the priest left blanks in their surnames. I haven’t a clue about the name of the priest.
What I make of this record is that the priest needed a remedial course in penmanship. The given names in the record appear in English rather than Latin and he had difficulty with the spelling of Polish surnames. It certainly does not appear that he made any real effort to attempt to enter the data correctly.
Dave
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ossnhughiePO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Replies: 354
Location: Massachusetts, USABack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:23 am
Post subject:
Dave,
This makes sense in some ways I believe when my ancestors lived in this parish it was mostly French speakers ie a French canadian parish. The important thing in the end is the horribly written baptism register entry matches the mangled up civil birth and death record from the town.
The vast penmanship qualities on records can really make a HUGE difference.
Thanks for taking a shot at it
Hugh
_________________ Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jesteś jak zdrowie;
Ile cię trzeba cenić, ten tylko się dowie, Kto cię stracił.
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Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:08 am
Post subject: Birth and Marriage
Hi Dave,
Once again I am lost. I have two records which I think may be ones that I need (they are around the right years). I can decipher most of the record, but I cannot seem to find last names for some of the people.
The first is a birth record from 1794. I have the following: July 21 1974 Stanislaus Bujalski baptized infant born on July 20 to the legitimate union of Sebastian and Agnes. God parents are Andreas and Agatha laborers from the village. The child was named Magdalena.
Am I missing something or are there no last names listed? (I have seen a lot of records like this from this parish)
The second is a Marriage Record from 1793 that I can find the names of the priest (Michael Nabreski), Stanislaus a widower and Catharina a virgin from Gorzyce. Witnesses were Kasper Oleynik, Paulus Semiometo and Jakub Lanenik laborers from Gorzyce.
Are Stanislaus and Cathrina's last names listed in here somewhere?
As always, your help is appreciated.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Polish Translation - new attempt
Tony Swiecicki wrote: | https://www.dropbox.com/s/9xtujsztx15zdac/1704%20Jan%20%C5%9Awiecicki%2C%20son%20of%20Tomasz%20%26%20Jadwiga%20Kiedzierzy%C5%84ska%2C%20grandson%20of%20Pawe%C5%82%20E_b_rkps_683.pdf?dl=0[/url] |
Tony,
The document you posted is a legal (court) document which is mainly in Polish with a few Latin legal phrases mixed in.
Perhaps if you posted it in the Polish Documents Translations section of the forum someone would be willing and able to provide you with a translation. Should you need the Latin phrases translated, I would be happy to do so at that point.
Wishing you success,
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Abbreviation help
lfgiles3 wrote: | Need help in determining what the underlined words on attached mean. Starting with "na"
Are these maiden names? Thanks. |
Hi,
The underlined phrases give the cause of death for each individual and are entered in Polish rather than in Latin. The word “na” in Polish is a preposition which in this context is best translated into English as “from” or “of”. The causes of death for the records are:
1. na puchlinę: from/of edema (Edema was also known as dropsy or hydrops and was a swelling which was caused by the accumulation of fluids in bodily cavities or tissues.)
2. na gorączkę: from/of a fever
3. na kaszelnięcie: from/of a cough
Actually, these causes of death describe the symptoms of the diseases which caused the person’s death rather than provide the name of a particular disease.
Wishing you success in your research,
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2781
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Birth and Marriage
Mrudnik wrote: | Hi Dave,
Once again I am lost. I have two records which I think may be ones that I need (they are around the right years). I can decipher most of the record, but I cannot seem to find last names for some of the people.
The first is a birth record from 1794. I have the following: July 21 1974 Stanislaus Bujalski baptized infant born on July 20 to the legitimate union of Sebastian and Agnes. God parents are Andreas and Agatha laborers from the village. The child was named Magdalena.
Am I missing something or are there no last names listed? (I have seen a lot of records like this from this parish)
The second is a Marriage Record from 1793 that I can find the names of the priest (Michael Nabreski), Stanislaus a widower and Catharina a virgin from Gorzyce. Witnesses were Kasper Oleynik, Paulus Semiometo and Jakub Lanenik laborers from Gorzyce.
Are Stanislaus and Cathrina's last names listed in here somewhere?
As always, your help is appreciated. |
Hi Mike,
You are not missing anything. Surnames of the main individuals are not included in the two records. In the marriage record one witness is definitely described by his land holding (Paulus Semicmeto) and the other two could be using surnames or could simply be listed by their occupations (Gaspar Olejnik and Jacobus Ławnik---Gaspar, the oil worker and Jakub the town/village official). The surnames of the bride and the groom are not in the record.
Despite the claim which has been made that by the 18th Century most Polish Christian peasants used surnames, I’ve seen numerous examples of records such as those you posted where individuals are listed without surnames. Lack of surnames does make it difficult, but not impossible, to determine whether individuals named in a given record are "your" people.
If you have any questions or would like a full translation, feel free to ask.
Dave
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Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:07 am
Post subject: Unknown words in birth records
Hi Dave,
I can normally work out what Latin records state, but these two have me stumped. I've only included the section I don't understand, but both are from birth records. The first I am presuming is something about baptising the infant (who was delivered stillborn) in utero, but I'm not sure of the exact translation. The second offers up something after the mother's name of the child, which I can not decipher at all. I would much appreciate your expertise.
Thanks.
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