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TifaStrife



Joined: 04 Jul 2019
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:50 am      Post subject: Birth Record Translation
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I found this birth record and believe it might be that of Antoni Janowski (b. June 13, 1870/1871); however, I was unable to translate it. The information surrounding the record is Parents - Konstancya Stokowska and Wawrzyniec Janowski. Parish is Jezow. Place is Lubiska. The information I currently have is that Antoni Janowski was the son of a Karl Janowski and Michalinae Stakowski (Sułkowska). The similarities in the mother's name and Antoni's name plus the year of birth being so close to the one I have recorded led me to question if this record might be a match. Thank you so much for your help!


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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:10 am      Post subject: Re: Translation of Record No 6 Marriage
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JGwizdowski wrote:
dnowicki wrote:
JGwizdowski wrote:
Greetings all! I would greatly appreciate help in accurately translating my g.g-parents marriage record. I pretty confident I have the groom's info, but I question the spelling of the surname. I have thought it to be Bzdziuch, but the writing in this record looks different to me....I'm just not sure.

As for the bride, I'm struggling with everything past the name. Also, the groom's birth year is listed, but looks like it's not for the bride?

I really appreciate some fresh eyes on this!

Thank you...Joe


Hi Joe,

The record you posted is in Polish, not in Latin.
.......
Hope this answers your questions,

Dave


Thank you Dave! One day, I'll figure out how to tell which language is being used in these records!
Best,
Joe


Hi Joe,

I should have mentioned that the record you posted yesterday is not the record of the marriage. The page comes from the “Register of Banns” (Księza Zapowiedzi)—the title at the top of the page. This register was the place where information was gathered prior to the wedding. Notice that the date of the marriage is not found in the entry. The marriage was contracted—the marriage ceremony took place, according to the last column. The heading of the column can be translated as “The marriage was contracted, or not” and the entry is “ditto” which refers back to the second entry on the page, Cop. (which is a Latin abbreviation meaning “joined together (in marriage)”. In order to learn the actual date of the wedding it would be necessary to locate the appropriate marriage register, if it is extant. Based on the information in the register of banns, the wedding took place no earlier than January 31, 1875. That year January 31 was a Sunday. Based on what I’ve seen over the years, weddings often took place on Sundays after the parish Mass and it was not unusual for the final announcement of the banns to have been made during the Sunday Mass with the wedding ceremony being celebrated after the Mass. In many ways a Sunday wedding was convenient—relatives, friends, neighbors, and acquaintances of the couple were already present at the parish church and thus it was possible that more people would be present for the ceremony than would normally attend a wedding during the week. However, since weddings often took place during the week, the marriage ceremony may have occurred on any day of the first week of February and no later than February 9. February 10 was Ash Wednesday, which marked the beginning of Lent, in 1875. Since weddings did not take place during Lent, the window for their wedding date would have been from January 31 through February 9. There was a “wedding rush” in the parish that year during that window. Six of the marriages on the page would have taken place on one of those days that year. One reason for the “rush” was that the next window for weddings would not occur until after the octave of Easter. Easter Sunday that year was on March 28 and the octave day was a week later (April 4) so weddings would not have been celebrated until after April 4. Since the custom in rural areas was to have weddings take place during the “down” times of the agricultural year, April would have marked the beginning of the busy planting season, which was definitely not a preferred time for weddings.

Here are some hints for determining whether a given record in the columnar format is in Polish or in Latin for anyone not familiar with those languages. Look at the column headings. If you see words which contain the letter “k”, you can be sure that the record is in Polish rather than in Latin. (“K” is only found in a very few Latin words like Kalendae (Calends, the first day of a Roman month—the word from which the English “calendar” comes.), and Karthago (Carthage). If you see one of those two words (which you will not), you can safely conclude that the record is in Latin. Another hint is that if you see words with diacritical marks (ą, ć, ę ł, ń, ó, ś. ź, ż) you can conclude that the record is in Polish. On the other hand, if you see a word which contains the letter “q”, you can safely conclude that the record is in Latin rather than in Polish. The same is true for words which contain the letter “v”. The Polish alphabet does not contain the letter “v” and the Latin alphabet did not contain the letter “w”.

I hope that you find this information useful.

Wishing you continued successful research,

Dave


Last edited by dnowicki on Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:16 am      Post subject: Re: Birth Record Translation
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TifaStrife wrote:
I found this birth record and believe it might be that of Antoni Janowski (b. June 13, 1870/1871); however, I was unable to translate it. The information surrounding the record is Parents - Konstancya Stokowska and Wawrzyniec Janowski. Parish is Jezow. Place is Lubiska. The information I currently have is that Antoni Janowski was the son of a Karl Janowski and Michalinae Stakowski (Sułkowska). The similarities in the mother's name and Antoni's name plus the year of birth being so close to the one I have recorded led me to question if this record might be a match. Thank you so much for your help!


Hi TifaStrife,

The record you posted is in Russian, not in Latin. If you post it under Russian records translations, page 2: https://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?t=3525&sid=5419aa6afd2a5a67308d069a0f9f480a
you should receive the translation of the entry.

Quick hints—if you see letters in the record which you do not recognize as belonging to the Latin/Roman alphabet (the alphabet used in English and Polish, etc.), you most likely have a record in Russian. (Russian uses the Cyrillic alphabet rather than the Latin/Roman alphabet.) Civil records from the Kingdom of Poland (Królestwo Polskie) aka Russian Poland aka the Russian Partition were composed in Polish from 1808 until 1868 and then in Russian from 1868 until the end of WWI. Using those dates can be helpful for determining the language of a civil record for anyone not familiar with those two languages. See the previous post for hints for determining whether a record is in Polish or in Latin. Attached are examples of handwritten and printed Cyrillic letters.

I hope this explanation helps you.

Wishing you success,

Dave



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Mary Kay



Joined: 11 Nov 2019
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:53 pm      Post subject: Grandfather's birth record
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I went to the Catholic Diocese in Tarnow in September and found my grandfather's birth record. Your website forum has already helped me translate some of it. Can you translate this portion with his parents names and their parents names? It would be great if you could.[/img]


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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:05 pm      Post subject: Re: Grandfather's birth record
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Mary Kay wrote:
I went to the Catholic Diocese in Tarnow in September and found my grandfather's birth record. Your website forum has already helped me translate some of it. Can you translate this portion with his parents names and their parents names? It would be great if you could.[/img]


Hi Mary Kay,

Here is what is legible to me in the section of the record you posted. The Father: Stanislaus Kołacz, l(egitimus) f(ilius) Francisci et Catharinae n(atae) Ja?óz hortulanus = Stanisław Kołacz, the legitimate son of Franciszek (Kołacz) and of Katarzyna born Ja?óz, a gardener*
The Mother: Anna Marianna l(egitima) f(ilia) Stanislai Kwarciński et Mariannae n(atae) S?? = Anna Maryanna, the legitimate daughter of Stanisław Kwarciński and of Marianna born S??
Note* hortulanus/gardener was a term used to describe a peasant who owned his cottage and a small amount of land for a garden and perhaps a few animals, but not a full farmstead with land for field crops.

The handwriting in this record is far removed from standard script which makes it difficult to determine the letters. This is OK if one knows what to expect, like with the Latin words, but it makes determining the vernacular (Polish) surnames a real trip without knowing what to expect. Here is an example of what I mean about the handwriting: The first word at the bottom of the father’s column is Bapt(izavit/baptized. I’m not sure how one could see that without knowing what it should be.

Perhaps someone else can give you a better reading of the two surname of which I am unsure— Ja?óz and S??

Wishing you successful research,

Dave
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Sophia



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:43 am      Post subject: Re: Grandfather's birth record
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dnowicki wrote:


Hi Mary Kay,

Here is what is legible to me in the section of the record you posted. The Father: Stanislaus Kołacz, l(egitimus) f(ilius) Francisci et Catharinae n(atae) Ja?óz hortulanus = Stanisław Kołacz, the legitimate son of Franciszek (Kołacz) and of Katarzyna born Ja?óz, a gardener*
The Mother: Anna Marianna l(egitima) f(ilia) Stanislai Kwarciński et Mariannae n(atae) S?? = Anna Maryanna, the legitimate daughter of Stanisław Kwarciński and of Marianna born S??
Note* hortulanus/gardener was a term used to describe a peasant who owned his cottage and a small amount of land for a garden and perhaps a few animals, but not a full farmstead with land for field crops.

The handwriting in this record is far removed from standard script which makes it difficult to determine the letters. This is OK if one knows what to expect, like with the Latin words, but it makes determining the vernacular (Polish) surnames a real trip without knowing what to expect. Here is an example of what I mean about the handwriting: The first word at the bottom of the father’s column is Bapt(izavit/baptized. I’m not sure how one could see that without knowing what it should be.

Perhaps someone else can give you a better reading of the two surname of which I am unsure— Ja?óz and S??

Wishing you successful research,

Dave


Hi Dave and Mary Kay,
I have a suggestion regarding the two names that are difficult to read. The first one I see as Jawór. For the second one I can only offer a wild guess, Sud, based on the way the capital M (used both times the name Marianna was written) reminds me of Suetterlin handwriting for M, and so I am guessing at a "d" that looks like a Suetterlin "d." That would make it a German surname (Sud = South) and perhaps my eyes simply insist on finding something recognizable. Mary Kay, sometimes it helps to post a larger section of the document just so that we can see how letters were formed by the person writing the records.
Best of luck in your search,
Sophia
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Mary Kay



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:53 am      Post subject:
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Thank you so much for your input. Per your suggestion, I'm posting the rest of the entry, starting with my grandfather's name and date of birth. As these were taken with my phone, in less than ideal conditions, I apologize for the overlap and low quality.


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Sophia



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:12 am      Post subject:
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Mary Kay wrote:
Thank you so much for your input. Per your suggestion, I'm posting the rest of the entry, starting with my grandfather's name and date of birth. As these were taken with my phone, in less than ideal conditions, I apologize for the overlap and low quality.


Hi Mary Kay,
Very helpful! I see the name of the midwife clearly as "Sophia Radzik." So, there you have a lower case letter "d" (wow, right?). Now I am less convinced about my guess of "Sud." Hmmmm.
Sophia

P.S. The last letter of the S... surname looks like the last letter of "hortalanus," so maybe Sus?
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:34 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Mary Kay wrote:
Thank you so much for your input. Per your suggestion, I'm posting the rest of the entry, starting with my grandfather's name and date of birth. As these were taken with my phone, in less than ideal conditions, I apologize for the overlap and low quality.


Hi Mary Kay,
Very helpful! I see the name of the midwife clearly as "Sophia Radzik." So, there you have a lower case letter "d" (wow, right?). Now I am less convinced about my guess of "Sud." Hmmmm.
Sophia

P.S. The last letter of the S... surname looks like the last letter of "hortalanus," so maybe Sus?


Hi Sophia & Mary Kay,

Sophia’s reading of Jawór seems like the correct reading and the suggestion of Sus is a definite possibility since that is a surname found in Poland. The way the scribe wrote the final letter appears to be his way of forming the letter more often than not in the available images, the exception being Josephus, which is possibly but not really clearly the same.

If this were my family I would try a different strategy in order to be certain. Instead of attacking the question head on, I would try a flank attack—I would look for birth records of known siblings and/or the marriage records of the parents and grandparents of the child. Based on the location where the record was found it is almost certainly a civil transcript. Perhaps the parish pastor hired different scribes for the other records in other years and with a little luck the handwriting may be better. I would contact the parish directly rather than going through the archive again. The presumption is that the first copy of the registers (which served as both the ecclesiastical and the civil record) is the one which remained in the parish.

Mary Kay,

You probably noticed that other than the given names there is very little Latin which needs to be translated. Attached is a PDF version of a list of Latin given names with their Polish and English versions which I compiled some time ago. This should make it easier for you to read the basic info in the records you find. The Latin names appear in what has long been the standard form in dictionaries—the Nominative (subject) form followed by the Genitive (Possession) form and then the gender of the noun. Usually given names appear in the records in either the Nominative or the Genitive form. (The only other form in which they occur is the Ablative—usually when they follow a preposition like “ex” (“from”). If we take the name Stanislaus as an example, Stanislaus is the Nominative, Stanislai is the Genitive, and Stanislao is the Ablative. Those are the forms you may see in birth & baptism records. Keep in mind that given names are in Latin, but surnames are always in the vernacular (Polish).

I hope this gives you some ideas and tools to further your research.

Good luck,

Dave



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Mary Kay



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:32 pm      Post subject:
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Thank you, Dave, for that information.

When searching for my grandfather's birth information and the names of his parents, I first contacted the archives in Krakow. I was directed to the Catholic Diocese in Tarnow, and this was one of the sentences in the email they sent: "On the basis of the above databases we would like to inform you that the state archives in Poland do not have any Roman Catholic files from the cities of Wilczyska and Grybów." I did locate his birth info in Tarnow and it's what I've posted. His brother's birth record (and he is the only sibling I know of) was not there. The priest said there were no records for a period after 1888 and I needed 1890. It was really great to learn his mother's' and grandparents' names though - thanks to you and Sophia.

I only know 2 sites to search - Family Search and Ancestry. Ancestry doesn't have records from Poland. They recommended Family Search. Family Search has no information on the name Kolacz in their Polish files in the towns I'm searching. I wonder if there are other spellings for the name. Family Search has records from Tarnow, but when I input the birth info for my grandfather, which I know is correct, nothing comes up. I've tried inputting Kwarcinski and Jawor. Nothing there. I've used the towns Wojnarowa and the parish name, Wilczyska. Perhaps there are other sites that might have this info. Do you have any suggestions?

I've downloaded the PDF file you sent. Thanks again.

Mary Kay
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:39 pm      Post subject:
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Mary Kay wrote:
Thank you, Dave, for that information.

When searching for my grandfather's birth information and the names of his parents, I first contacted the archives in Krakow. I was directed to the Catholic Diocese in Tarnow, and this was one of the sentences in the email they sent: "On the basis of the above databases we would like to inform you that the state archives in Poland do not have any Roman Catholic files from the cities of Wilczyska and Grybów." I did locate his birth info in Tarnow and it's what I've posted. His brother's birth record (and he is the only sibling I know of) was not there. The priest said there were no records for a period after 1888 and I needed 1890. It was really great to learn his mother's' and grandparents' names though - thanks to you and Sophia.

I only know 2 sites to search - Family Search and Ancestry. Ancestry doesn't have records from Poland. They recommended Family Search. Family Search has no information on the name Kolacz in their Polish files in the towns I'm searching. I wonder if there are other spellings for the name. Family Search has records from Tarnow, but when I input the birth info for my grandfather, which I know is correct, nothing comes up. I've tried inputting Kwarcinski and Jawor. Nothing there. I've used the towns Wojnarowa and the parish name, Wilczyska. Perhaps there are other sites that might have this info. Do you have any suggestions?

I've downloaded the PDF file you sent. Thanks again.

Mary Kay


Hi Mary Kay,

I’m unsure whether the priest you spoke to was at the Diocesan Archives in Tarnów or at the parish in Wilczyska. If it was not at the parish, I would recommend that you write to the parish priest at the parish of St. Stanislaus Bishop & Martyr (św. Stanisława Biskupa i Męczennika). Here is a link to info about the parish including the address and the name of the pastor. It also includes a picture of contemporary the parish church, which dates back to the early 17th Century. https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parafia_%C5%9Bw._Stanis%C5%82awa_Biskupa_i_M%C4%99czennika_w_Wilczyskach

My ancestors are not from the Austrian Partition aka Galicia, but from what I’ve learned helping others, many parish records from that area are not held by the Polish State Archives or by diocesan archives. Often such records can be found only in the office of the parish. This precludes research via the internet and leaves one dependent upon the good will of the parish priest but it does not necessarily make the research impossible.

If I can be of any additional help, please let me know.

Dave
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Mary Kay



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Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:03 pm      Post subject:
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Dave,
The priest was in Tarnow and not helpful at all. if I would rate him on Trip Advisor, he’d be lucky to get one star. I’ll see if I can make contact with the parish via email. If not, then it will have to wait until my next trip to Poland, unless I can hire a genealogist there to do the legwork.

Thank you for the advice.

Mary Kay
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Henry M. Deskewies



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Post Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:36 pm      Post subject: Document-Latin to Englush
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Hello,
I submitted this document and received a reply that it was in Latin and could not be translated. I'm re-submitting since I
have observed this type of translation being done. Maybe there is a process for Latin Docs that I need to know.

Thanks ahead of time for your help (and many other successful translations in Russian & Polish as well)
Maybe something fell through the cracks.



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:19 pm      Post subject: Re: Document-Latin to Englush
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Henry M. Deskewies wrote:
Hello,
I submitted this document and received a reply that it was in Latin and could not be translated. I'm re-submitting since I
have observed this type of translation being done. Maybe there is a process for Latin Docs that I need to know.

Thanks ahead of time for your help (and many other successful translations in Russian & Polish as well)
Maybe something fell through the cracks.


Hi Henry,

I don’t know where you posted the record previously but you will always receive a translation if you post it in the Latin Records Translations section of the forum as you’ve just done. I’ve been doing the translations of Latin documents for the past six years or so and have no plans to stop in the foreseeable future.

The document is a birth and baptism certificate for two individuals who were baptized in the church of Saint John the Baptist in the town of Włocławek. Here is the translation of the text.

An extract from the baptismal register of the parish church in Włocławek of St. John the Baptist (Polish: św. Jana Chrzciciela) as follows.
Holędry: In the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred Eighty-eight /1788/ on the 30th day of November Reverend Wojciech Podleski baptized an infant of two names, Andrzej Mikołaj, born on the 27th of the same month, the son of the legitimate marriage of the upright* parents Bartłomiej and Maryanna née Małecka Deskiewicz. The sponsors were Tomasz Deskiewicz and Petronela Bujakowska.

From the same baptismal register:
From Zazamcze: In the year of Our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred Ninety-two /1792/ on the 23rd day of May I, Kajetan Nowicki, pastor in Włocławek, baptized an infant by the name of Helena, the daughter of the legitimate marriage of the upright* parents Mateusz and Katarzyna née Niedzielska Biesiada. The sponsors were Jan Jurkowski and Anna Grembowska.

In verification of which I sign the above certificate with my own hand and impress with the seal of the above named parish—Given in Włocławek on the 16th day of January 1816.

Signature of Kajetan Nowicki, pastor in Włocławek.

Note: honestorum/upright: an adjective used to describe farmers, usually from a town or small village.

It appears that both Holędry and Zazancze have been incorporated into the contemporary town of Włocławek.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave
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vmcgovern90



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Post Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:40 am      Post subject:
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Hi,

I am wondering if anyone would be able to assist me with translating these 2 family records I have just come across. I appreciate any help.



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