Forum | PolishOrigins :: View topic - Latin records translations

Author

Message

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks!

GorliceRoots wrote:

I downloaded that .pdf previously. THANK YOU for it. It is VERY useful. I highly recommend it to anyone reading this thread!

From the what are the chances file... There is a marriage: (1841) Wojciech Augustyn, son of Wawrzyniec, married Marianna Piotroska, daughter of Andrzej, in Gorlice.

This is followed by a death record for Wojciech Augustyn in 1844 in Gorlice.

The marriage Wnorowski/Augustynka record above is very likely from 1846. I only have the index for the 1841 marriage. It all fits nicely EXCEPT the 1841 bride is Marianna, not Magdelena. Could all be just coincidence, though.

Hi Joe,

It is possible that the bride in both marriages is the same person, but not necessarily. Despite the generalized statement I made earlier about having only one given name, her full name may have been Maria (Maryanna) Magdalena, whose feast day is July22. Often children in Poland were given the name of the saint on whose feast day they were born or baptized. The birth or baptism didn’t necessarily have to fall on the feast day. Close could win the cigar. A bit more research would be needed to confirm or to reject the possibility. Based on the bride’s age in 1846 she would have been 17 plus or minus one year in 1841. Also, does the previous page in the book list the year? The page with the 1846? marriage follows so it would be the year following whatever year is found on the previous page. As far as I know, there is only a Saint Mary Magdalene (Mary of Magdala) and no saint only known as Magdalene. Attached is a list of Saints Days celebrated in Poland. The list is not set in stone since there are local variations in the dates of the feasts of Catholic saints.

The age difference may or may not be indicative of widowhood. One of my several greats grandfather was born in 1780, married in 1806 and had twelve children with his wife. He became a widower in 1843. His youngest daughter married in 1845 and he married a twenty-eight year old maiden on the same day his daughter got married. He had two kids with his second wife and that is why I fondly refer to him as “The Stud”. He died a few years later. He probably wore himself out fathering 14 children. Amazingly, most of his children survived to adulthood, married and had children of their own and a large number of his descendants settled in Chicago & in Northwest Indiana. In the case of Wincenty and Magdalena, she may have had a young child or children and needed a husband and he may have needed a wife to take care of him and his home. As the ancient Roman proverb goes: “Necessitas est durum telum.” (Necessity is a hard weapon.)

Dave

Saints Days Observed in Poland.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Saints Days Observed in Poland.pdf

Filesize:

62.35 KB

Downloaded:

181 Time(s)

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Latin help for marriage record

trinkelson wrote:

Please assist in determining who the birth mother is for Thomas on the attached 1889 marriage record. Was it Hedviga or Agneta? I translate the record as follows: "Thomas Stec reserve soldier son of pre-deceased Hedviga Stec of Matheus Stec and Agneta Sikora all born in Markowizna," so I'm confused. Was one of them a former wife of Matheus or instead, of Thomas? The Latin declensions are probably tripping me up again. Thanks in advance.

Hi,

Since only his mother was listed, Tomasz was most likely illegitimate. Perhaps that contributes to your confusion. Here are translations of the entries for both the groom and for the bride.

The groom: Tomasz, a reserve soldier, born in Markowizna, the son of the late Jadwiga Stec, daughter of Mateusz Stec and of Agnieszka née (literally: born) Sikora

The bride: Marianna Kurdziel, born in Markowizna, the daughter of the late Wojciech Kurdziel and of the late Zofia, (daughter) of Józef Saczawa

Should you have additional questions, please don’t hesitate to ask.

Dave

trinkelson

Joined: 21 Jan 2018
Replies: 44

Back to top

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:16 am Post subject: Latin help for marriage record

Thanks Dave. Your note about Thomas being illegitimate makes sense now. Hedviga was the daughter of Matheus and Agneta. Thomas was the son of Hedviga. Mystery solved... On to the next!
Best regards.

GorliceRoots

Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Back to top

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:05 am Post subject: Child's play

Dave, I believe this will be child's play for you. I need no heading help. The second entry gives: Sophia Wnaroska Vincentii exor = Sophia Wnaroska wife of Vincent (Vincentii in the genitive.) 50 "anor" = 50 annorum = 50 years. The "Illness and cause of death" shows "ordin" = ordinaria = ordinary. I assume the 1845 version of "natural causes". [The date looks like a 4 to me - in January.]

Now my only Q: What does it say after "ordin"? I have given the entire page to show other examples. It appears that the other examples are the same for "S Stis" and the last word is different. It looks like the fourth example ends with "moribus".

WNOROWSKA Zofia D 1845 .JPG

Description:

Filesize:

862.35 KB

Viewed:

0 Time(s)

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Child's play

GorliceRoots wrote:

Hi Joe,

The date is January 4.

Yes, ordinaria/ordinary means from natural causes—in other words, not as the result of an accident, murder (which was very rare), suicide, etc. If you notice, it was the type of death for everyone on the page. The final words of the entry are S(anctissimis) S(acramen)tis provisa, which means “prepared (for death) with/by the Most Holy Sacraments”. There are seven such entries on the page (counting those which use ditto). The only difference in the entries is that for females the last word is provisa (feminine ending) and for males the word appears as provisus (masculine ending). These words do not appear for the deaths of children, but only for adults. The “Most Holy Sacraments” are Penance/Confession, Communion under the title of Viaticum, and Extreme Unction (now called Anointing of the Sick). Together they were called The Last Rites. Why Communion was known as Viaticum here is explained by the makeup of the word itself. Via means road/way so Communion here meant the “food” for the road from this life to eternity. Children who had not reached the “age of reason” did not receive the three sacraments because they had no need of them. This entry was standard for anyone whose death was anticipated. The adults who did not receive these sacraments were those whose death was sudden or unexpected thus making it impossible for the parish priest to arrive before the individual died.

Dave

GorliceRoots

Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Back to top

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:46 pm Post subject: Marriage Banns

Dave, I really tried on this Polish. I have cited what I thought was the proper case in each instance. I impressed myself by getting "mieszczanina". I hope this is mostly a proofread for you.

The part in red is the only part where I am not sure, but since it must indicate "religia" this seems reasonable.

I thought I would break this up and save the dates part at the right of the Banns for a follow-up post.

THANKS!

Marr_Banns_Translation1.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Marr_Banns_Translation1.pdf

Filesize:

352.65 KB

Downloaded:

190 Time(s)

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Marriage Banns

GorliceRoots wrote:

Joe,

You have the correct idea about the part in red of which you were unsure. The abbreviation stands for obrządek łaciński, which means Latin (aka Roman) Rite.

It seems that you overlooked the abbreviation ś.p. which stands for świętej pamięci and literally means “of holy memory” or in straightforward English “the late”. Everything else is fine.

Was the Family History Center open for business?

Dave

GorliceRoots

Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Back to top

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:52 pm Post subject: PM issues?

Dave, I tried to send you a PM to your inbox. The one earlier today never went through I guess. The current one I wrote is stuck in my "Outbox". Any idea why?

Thanks!

joe

a4u2fear

Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USA
Back to top

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:42 am Post subject:

Hey Dave,

Got lucky and a few of my ancestors records in France are in Latin. You are a wonderful resource.

Could you please translate:
1) Marriage Francis Wirri and Catherine Reinhardt 1767
2) Baptism Madeline Wirri 1768

Hope you are healthy. Thank you

Madeleine Wirig (Schilling) baptism 1768 Haguenau pg 19of286 baptisms 1767-1780 Saint Nicolas (3of3).pdf

Description:

second baptism down on left

Download

Filename:

Madeleine Wirig (Schilling) baptism 1768 Haguenau pg 19of286 baptisms 1767-1780 Saint Nicolas (3of3).pdf

Filesize:

816.94 KB

Downloaded:

263 Time(s)

Francis Wirig marriage Cath Reinhardt 1767 saint nicolas pg170of193 haguenau (3of3).pdf

Description:

top of right page marriage 1767

Download

Filename:

Francis Wirig marriage Cath Reinhardt 1767 saint nicolas pg170of193 haguenau (3of3).pdf

Filesize:

742.28 KB

Downloaded:

204 Time(s)

GorliceRoots

Joined: 15 Mar 2020
Replies: 31
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Back to top

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:25 pm Post subject: Hopefully easy!

Dave,
I am attaching (as a .pdf) the second part of the marriage banns that we worked on. What is left is of secondary importance, but it would be nice to have. If you could proofread my date analysis, that would be great. It is (I think) 100% correct.

The part at the bottom of the .pdf is about 1/2 done. Any help that you can give would be great. I have attached all that I have of that page of the register. It has 3.75 examples of the last column so you can compare the writing that is often the same for all of the entries. The entry of concern is the third from the top.

I remain grateful and hope that I have done the lion's share of the work.

joe

WNOROWSKI x WYGRZYWALSKA - MBanns 1867 Gorlice #17.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

861.26 KB

Viewed:

0 Time(s)

Marr_Banns_Translation2.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Marr_Banns_Translation2.pdf

Filesize:

147.1 KB

Downloaded:

197 Time(s)

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:57 pm Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Hi Andrew,

I’m in good health and hope you are too.

Here is the birth & baptism record. I am uncertain of the spelling of some surnames and I am unable to make out the initial letters of the words used as part of the occupations of the males in the record which makes it impossible to read the words. If I were to guess, the words may describe the class of craftsman (i.e. apprentice,journeyman, etc.).

I’ll do the marriage record by Monday.

Dave

Number 98
Today, on the 22nd day of the month of February of the year 1768 by me, the undersigned vicar of the parish church of Saint Nicholas in Haguenau, was baptized Mary Magdalene, the legitimate daughter of the marriage of Francis Wirig, a (illeg.word) mason, and of Catherine Reinhardt, residing in this parish, born the previous day of the same month and year. The male sponsor/godfather was Francis Rian(?), a mason (illeg. word); the female sponsor/godmother was Mary Magdalene Stuhlmüller, the legitimate daughter of the marriage of John Adam Stuhlmüller, a townsman/citizen and butcher (illeg. word) and of Elizabeth (illeg. surname) residing in the parish of Saint George within the same Haguenau. The father (who was) present (and) all (= the sponsors aka godparents) who do not know how to write made their marks.
The mark of the male sponsor/godfather + The mark of the female sponsor/godmother X The mark of the father X.
(Signature): Dominic Rellen, vicar

Last edited by dnowicki on Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total

Sophia
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Replies: 1028

Back to top

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:08 am Post subject:

dnowicki wrote:

Hi Andrew,

I’m in good health and hope you are too.

Here is the birth & baptism record. I am uncertain of the spelling of some surnames and I am unable to make out the initial letters of the words used as part of the occupations of the males in the record which makes it impossible to read the words. If I were to guess, the words may describe the class of craftsman (i.e. apprentice,journeyman, etc.).

I’ll do the marriage record by Monday.

Dave

Number 98
Today, on the 22nd day of the month of February of the year 1768 by me, the undersigned vicar of the parish church of Saint Nicholas in Haguenau, was baptized Mary Magdalene, the legitimate daughter of the marriage of Francis Wirig, a (illeg.word) mason, and of Catherine Reinlgar(?), residing in this parish, born the previous day of the same month and year. The male sponsor/godfather was Francis Rian(?), a mason (illeg. word); the female sponsor/godmother was Mary Magdalene Stulgtmüller(?), the legitimate daughter of the marriage of John Adam Stulgtmüller(?), a townsman/citizen and butcher (illeg. word) and of Elizabeth (illeg. surname) residing in the parish of Saint George within the same Haguenau. The father (who was) present (and) all (= the sponsors aka godparents) who do not know how to write made their marks.
The mark of the male sponsor/godfather + The mark of the female sponsor/godmother X The mark of the father X.
(Signature): Dominic Rellen, vicar

Hi Dave and Andrew,
I am able to help with two of the hard-to-read surnames. It is Catherine Reinhardt and Mary Magdalene Stuhlmüller. It is the droopy H that seems to give you trouble.
Best,
Sophia

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:43 am Post subject:

Sophia wrote:

dnowicki wrote:

Hi Andrew,

I’m in good health and hope you are too.

Here is the birth & baptism record. I am uncertain of the spelling of some surnames and I am unable to make out the initial letters of the words used as part of the occupations of the males in the record which makes it impossible to read the words. If I were to guess, the words may describe the class of craftsman (i.e. apprentice,journeyman, etc.).

I’ll do the marriage record by Monday.

Dave

Number 98
Today, on the 22nd day of the month of February of the year 1768 by me, the undersigned vicar of the parish church of Saint Nicholas in Haguenau, was baptized Mary Magdalene, the legitimate daughter of the marriage of Francis Wirig, a (illeg.word) mason, and of Catherine Reinlgar(?), residing in this parish, born the previous day of the same month and year. The male sponsor/godfather was Francis Rian(?), a mason (illeg. word); the female sponsor/godmother was Mary Magdalene Stulgtmüller(?), the legitimate daughter of the marriage of John Adam Stulgtmüller(?), a townsman/citizen and butcher (illeg. word) and of Elizabeth (illeg. surname) residing in the parish of Saint George within the same Haguenau. The father (who was) present (and) all (= the sponsors aka godparents) who do not know how to write made their marks.
The mark of the male sponsor/godfather + The mark of the female sponsor/godmother X The mark of the father X.
(Signature): Dominic Rellen, vicar

Hi Dave and Andrew,
I am able to help with two of the hard-to-read surnames. It is Catherine Reinhardt and Mary Magdalene Stuhlmüller. It is the droopy H that seems to give you trouble.
Best,
Sophia

Hi Sophia,

Thanks. I’ll correct the translation. Surnames and handwriting from that area are beyond the comfort zone of my knowledge and expertise.

Dave

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Hopefully easy!

GorliceRoots wrote:

Hi Joe,

Your analysis of the dates on which the banns were announced is fine. The final column does state that the marriage ceremony took place on Feb. 27, 1867 (info also found in the Marriage Register. The abbreviations which you are unable to determine are the same ones of which I’m uncertain. The final line of the entry which you read as Dom II ??? 162 N.9 refers to where the record of the marriage is located in the Matrimonial Register. It reads Tom II. str(ona) 162. N(umer) 9 = Volume II, page 162, (entry) Number 9.

Dave

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:34 am Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Hi Andrew,

The Latin in this record is rather clumsy and by putting the main verb into the Passive Voice makes the sentence rather convoluted. I put it into sensible English without changing it any more than necessary. I’m unsure of the spelling of the maiden name of the groom’s mother and was not able to locate the place of residence of the bride and her parents. Anyway, here it is.

Dave

In the Year of Our Lord 1767 on the 18th day of the month of May after the three proclamations of the banns had been made in our parish church of St. Nicholas in Haguenau according to the custom of the Catholic Church and since no impediment had been detected, Francis Wirri, a mason by profession, the surviving son of the late Lawrence Wirri and of Anna Maria Want?er once (illegible word due to tight binding) and married and residing in this parish, our parishioner*, by the Reverend Sir** John de Monfort, pastor in Lurburg(?), was joined in marriage with Catherine Reinhard, the legitimate daughter of the marriage of Joseph Reinhard, a townsman, a lathe operator/potter in Lurburg(?), and of Maria Magdalena Stein, residing*** in Lurburg(?).

Signature: Charles/Karl Nicholas Garnier, vicar at St. Nicholas in Haguenau

Note: *The antecedent is Francis Wirri, the groom
**Reverend Sir/Reverendum Dominum: The title indicates that John de Monfort was a noble
***Refers to both parents

PolishOrigins Forum