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Latin records translations
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:25 pm      Post subject: Re: translation
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a4u2fear wrote:
dave can you please translate the Chabsko marriage (3rd down) on left side btwn Thomas Jaskiewicz and Agnes?

Thanks!


Andrew,

Notice that the groom is formally known as Jurkiewicz but is also commonly known as Gorzalany, a name most likely derived from his occupation; he was a distiller of alcohol. Looks like he and George Washington had something in common since George’s Mt. Vernon was one of the largest producers of distilled spirits in America. In 1799 (the year of his death) the distillery produced 11,000 gallons of spirits. A Pole, Julian Ursyn Niemcewicz, who visited Mt. Vernon in 1798, noted that nothing went to waste as the slop from the distillery was fed to Washington’s hogs. He stated that the slop produced ‘the most delicate and most succulent feed for pigs’ and allowed Mt. Vernon to raise excellent hogs. All the above leads me to a digression from the time I taught Polish grammar and Modern Polish Literature during the time the Solidarity movement was gaining steam during the late 70s and early 80s. Roughly 1/3 of the students in the class were born in Poland and had many relatives who remained there. Once a student brought in a letter from his relatives which described a recent occurance. At the time it was very difficult for Poles to obtain Polish hams since they were all being sent to Russia. The Russians thought that they were really slick and filled a train destined for Russia with hams which were packed in cartons marked ‘shoes’. Of course, that didn’t fool the Poles who worked in the railroad yard so one night they made their displeasure known by welding the wheels of the train cars to the tracks. Ultimately the hams were sent to Russia but the night of welding for no pay did make the workers feel a bit better. This story actually fit in with many of the short stories from Poland during that time since the literature was often satirical and critical of the Communist government. One more digression and then back to the reality of the record...There is a Polish short story in which the government set telegraph poles along a road but never strung wire between the poles. Instead workers were stationed at each pole and ‘transmitted’ the message by shouting to the next man in line. As I recall, the message was ‘Ojciec umarł; pogrzeb w Piątek.’ (Father died; the funeral is on Friday’). Ah, the efficiency of totalitarian officials.

Back to the two surnames...It is another example of the fluidity of surnames during the late 18th and early 19th Centuries.

Anyway, digressions are one of the results of spending too much time with limited human contact as a result of social distancing. Here is the long delayed translation.

Dave

Łabsko (current spelling Chabsko)

On the same day (July 31, 1785) I, the same who is above, confirmed and ratified* the marriage between the upright** Tomasz Jurkiewicz, commonly called Gorzalany, a widower, and Agnieszka Tupalinska, a widow, after the three banns had been announced on three Sundays, in the presence of the witnesses Marcin Gajowski (&) Roch Dębinski, the organist, and others worthy of trust.

Notes: *confirmavi ac ratificavi/I confirmed and ratified: Records never state that the priest ‘married’ the couple since, according to Catholic Theology, the ministers of the Sacrament of Matrimony are the bride and the groom. Thus the entries are phrased in terms like those above or in similar words like ‘I blessed’ or I joined together in matrimony’.
**honestum/upright (Polish: uczciwy): adjective used to describe a peasant from a village or a small town.
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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:34 am      Post subject:
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Thanks Dave, always a pleasure reading. This side of the family has me going crazy. Would be great to know an ancestor was into making alcohol but I agree I think it's Jurkiewicz not Jaskiewicz; meaning likely not a match.

I am an engineer so I love solving problems/puzzles etc. I just wish I had a family member who cared about this side of my family. It's my dad's side and my mom is very much into ancestry but of course for her side of the family. Also, she's older so she can't really help search the records online. I need someone to bounce ideas off of!

take care
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Louie



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Post Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:10 am      Post subject: Latin Marriage Record
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Would someone please clean up this feeble attempt?
Thanks you,
louie



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:45 pm      Post subject: Re: Latin Marriage Record
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Louie wrote:
Would someone please clean up this feeble attempt?
Thanks you,
louie


Hi Louie,

Your attempt was much better than feeble—especially considering the quality and clarity of the image and the number of contractions and truncated words in the text. I’ll transcribe the Latin with the understood letters of the contractions in parentheses. I tried to have the translation follow the Latin word order except when doing so would result in terrible English. The Latin word order cannot always be followed in English translation due to the structure of the two languages. Latin does not depend upon word order to convey usage but does so through inflection (changes of case endings in nouns, pronouns, and adjective and the personal endings of verb forms). English, on the other hand depends heavily on word order.

Given names in the text are translated into their Polish version.

I hope this transcription and translation will help you to polish your future translations.

Dave

Here is the transcription followed by a translation:
1754
23 Januarii praemissis trib(u)s bannis* scil(ice)t Dominicae 1. 2. 3 post Epiph(aniam) nullo(que) detecto canonico impedimento* copulatus(qu)e a Parochi loci honest(us)** adolescens*** Valentinus filius posterius defunctum Nicolaum Philipzik(?)**** ex Twardowa***** cum honesta** ancilla Agnete filia posteria defunctum Valentinum Poczker(?)**** ex Twardowa*****. Testes fuere Jo(ann)es Jalorek(?) (et) Josephus Mathuszek(?) ambo Twardovie(nses)******.

Translation: On 23 January 1754, the three banns having been promulgated beforehand*, namely on the 1st, 2nd, (&) 3rd Sundays after Epiphany, and no canonical impediment having been detected*, the upright** (single) young man*** Walenty, the son surviving the deceased Mikołaj Philipzik(?)**** from Twardowo***** was joined together in marriage by the pastor of this place with the upright** servant Agnieszka, the daughter surviving the deceased Walenty Poczker(?) from Twardowo*****. The witnesses were Jan Jalorek(?) (&) Józef Mathuszek(?), both residents of Twardowo******.

Notes: *The construction used here is the Ablative Absolute, which is a noun, pronoun or adjective with a participle in the Ablative Case. The above translation is the most literal. My preferred way to translate these two examples of the Ablative Absolute is to translate them as subordinate clauses. The word impedimentum does mean “an obstacle or hindrance but I prefer to translate it as “impediment” since that is the usual (technical) way the word is found in English RC documents. Impediments fell into two groups, one which would render a marriage invalid and the other which rendered it illicit/illegal but valid. I would usually render the words as “After the three banns had been promulgated beforehand…and since no canonical impediment had been detected/discovered/found...” The construction is a stock formula which states that the preliminary requirements of Catholic Church law had been fulfilled.
**honestus/upright/(Polish: uczciwy): an adjective used to describe a peasant from a village or small town
***adolescens/young man: That he was single is implied
****The letters of the surnames in the image are unclear. I used your reading of the surnames.
*****Twardowa: If the village was part of either the parish of Modrze or the parish of Szamotuły, the contemporary spelling would be Twardowo.
******Tvardovienses: Place names are found in two forms in Latin records. Usually when treated as nouns they are simply kept in the vernacular. When they are treated as adjectives, as here, they are modified to become Latin adjectives by adding the suffix -iensis. Here the suffix is truncated and the understood noun they modify can be translated as residents/inhabitants/citizens/etc.
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dkocur



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Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 8:56 am      Post subject: Birth and Baptism Record Translation
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Hi, This is my first post to Polish Origins. I have been trying to dig deeper into my Polish roots with little success. Recently I had a Great Aunt pass away. I was able to get some documents from her including the Birth and Baptism Record, attached, of her father, my great grandfather.
I was hoping to get some help translating it.

I think I have been able to decipher some of it. Most of the problems I have had has been in reading the hand written text.

Here are some of the parts I think I have translated
Republic of Poland
Palatinatus: ????
District: Lesko???
Diocese: Przemysl?
Deanery: Baligrod?
Parish: Mchawa

first hand written line... rith?? Greek Catholic Mchawa
second hand written line... Church of St Michael the Archangel in Kielczawa
looks like Volume I, page 73, section 8
I think it is 1889 spelled out
his birthday 13 October 1889

I don't know what the next to lines say

Col 1: Romanus or Roman
Col 2: Greek Catholic
Col 3: Male
Col 4: looks like illegitimate
Col 5: No father listed
Col 6: Maria Kocur then I cannot make out the rest
Col 7: God parents ?????
Col 8: ????
I am not sure what is says after the Columns.



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:17 am      Post subject: Re: Birth and Baptism Record Translation
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dkocur wrote:
Hi, This is my first post to Polish Origins. I have been trying to dig deeper into my Polish roots with little success. Recently I had a Great Aunt pass away. I was able to get some documents from her including the Birth and Baptism Record, attached, of her father, my great grandfather.
I was hoping to get some help translating it.

I think I have been able to decipher some of it. Most of the problems I have had has been in reading the hand written text.

Here are some of the parts I think I have translated
Republic of Poland
Palatinatus: ????
District: Lesko???
Diocese: Przemysl?
Deanery: Baligrod?
Parish: Mchawa

first hand written line... rith?? Greek Catholic Mchawa
second hand written line... Church of St Michael the Archangel in Kielczawa
looks like Volume I, page 73, section 8
I think it is 1889 spelled out
his birthday 13 October 1889

I don't know what the next to lines say

Col 1: Romanus or Roman
Col 2: Greek Catholic
Col 3: Male
Col 4: looks like illegitimate
Col 5: No father listed
Col 6: Maria Kocur then I cannot make out the rest
Col 7: God parents ?????
Col 8: ????
I am not sure what is says after the Columns.


Hi,

I was able to read most of the handwritten entries but in a few instances I was not able to discern the letters. The date of birth is written in longhand and in Arabic numerals over lined background. This was a security device to keep the entry from being changed and it did work. Not too long ago I translated a certificate where the Arabic numbers for the birth entry had been changed but since the person didn’t realize that the same data appeared in Latin in longhand it was obvious that someone had tampered with the certificate since the two did not match. The lines were supposed to act like a security strip to prevent erasures.

For given names which are not very common I gave both the Polish and the English versions.

I was not able to discern the letters of the given name of Eufrozyna’s father and the spelling of some of the surnames is simply my best interpretation of the handwriting.

Sorry that I can’t be of more help.

Wishing you success,

Dave

Here is the translation.

Top of Certificate:
Left Side: Republic of Poland
Województwo/Province: Lwów
District/Powiat (County): Lesko
Center: Number (of certificate issued): 28/32 (#28 for the year 1932)
Right Side: Diocese: Przemyśl
Dekenat (Deanery): Baligród
Parish: Mchawa

Certificate of birth and of baptism

The parish office of the parish church of the Greek Catholic Rite in Michawa attests by the presents (i.e. this document) to all and sundry of whom it is or may be of interest that in the baptismal registers designated for the filial* church of Saint Michael the Archangel in Kielczawa in Volume 1, Page 73, Number 8 is found the following:

In the year of Our Lord One Thousand Eight Hundred Eighty-Nine, that is 1889, on the 13th day of the month of October was born at house number 5, and on the 14 day of October was baptized and confirmed by Rev. Joachim Sonejym(?), the pastor at that time of the parish of Mchawa:

Col. 1: Name of the one baptized: Roman
Col. 2: Religion: Greek Catholic
Col. 3: Sex/Gender: Male
Col. 4: The (marital) bed: Illegitimate
Col. 5: PARENTS
Col. 5a: The Father: Blank
Col. 5b: The Mother: Maria Kocur, the daughter of (Polish): Onufy (English: Humphrey) (Kocur) and of (Polish) Eufrozyna (English: Euphrosyne) of (illegible first name of her father) Łapiszka(?), (illegible occupation) from (illegible place name)
Col 6: The Sponsors and their status: Antoni Bazna(?); Maria, the wife of Jan Tranyk(?)
Col, 7: Notation: Illegible entry

The midwife: Not examined**: Maria Grabowska

In testimony of which I sign this certificate with my own had and affirm it with the seal of the parish church.

Given in Mchawa on the 24th day of March, 1932

Signature of the parish pastor with imprint of the parish seal

Notes: *ecclesia filiali/filial church: The parish had at least two church structures for the one parish. The main parish church was located in Mchawa and there was a second church building in the village of Kielczawa which was used to serve the members of the parish of Mchawa who lived in Kielczawa.

**Non examinata/not examined: There were two types of midwives in 19th Century Galicia, those who had passed an examination in their craft and those who had not taken an examination. It seems that both practiced during the period. It was like having both licensed and unlicensed individuals who were practicing the task of a midwife.
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dkocur



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Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 1:21 pm      Post subject:
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Dave,
This is great. Thank you very much for your time.
Do you know how I can find the church record the is listed?

Again Thanks, Dan
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 8:46 pm      Post subject:
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dkocur wrote:
Dave,
This is great. Thank you very much for your time.
Do you know how I can find the church record the is listed?

Again Thanks, Dan


Hi Dan,

I have no personal experience researching Galicia as all my maternal and paternal ancestors were from Kujawsko-Pomorskie and Wielkopolskie. Here is what I learned by doing some reading: 1. The state archive in Przemyśl has records from the Greek Catholic parish in Mchawa but only to 1838. https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/search?q=mchawa%20XTYPEro%3Apra&order=
2. There is no longer a Greek Rite Catholic parish in Mchawa. Now there is only a Roman/Latin Rite parish there. That appears to have been the situation since after WWII.
3. Normally I would suggest contacting the parish directly but that does not seem to be possible since the Greek Rite Catholic parish no longer exists.

My first recommendation would be to post a new request for guidance in a new thread on the PO Forum. Perhaps someone from the PO team will be able help with practical advice and suggestions. As a last resort perhaps someone at the Latin/Roman Rite parish would be able to tell you where the parish records for the Greek Rite parish are curently housed. Here is a link to the Roman/Latin Rite parish in Mchawa http://parafiamchawa.pl/kontakt/

Sorry that I can’t provide you with better suggestions.

Wishing you luck,

Dave
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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:00 am      Post subject:
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Dave,

Can you help read the day of the month of May of this marriage? It's from France but the record is in latin

Thanks



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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:26 am      Post subject:
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Dave,

Same for this one, I can read the month November and it is 1772, but I can't figure out the day of the month. France again



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 5:59 pm      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
Dave,

Can you help read the day of the month of May of this marriage? It's from France but the record is in latin

Thanks


Andrew,

The date is the 3rd of May (die tertia).

Tomorrow will be the celebration of the Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791, which was the second oldest written constitution in the world. The first was the US Constitution which was ratified on June 21, 1788. There were many similarities between that Polish Constitution and the US Constitution.

Happy Constitution Day!

Dave
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:13 pm      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
Dave,

Same for this one, I can read the month November and it is 1772, but I can't figure out the day of the month. France again


Andrew,

The date on this one is November 3. (die tertia).

As I’m sure you noticed, the wording of both the marriage and the death record is different from the typical Latin marriage & death records from the same time in Poland. When the Council of Trent (1575) required the keeping of Sacramental records the Council did not mandate a form for the records. Thus priests were free to enter the facts in whatever format and with whatever words they favored. Thus, there were national and regional differences in the style in which the records were kept. The records are not great literary works and as long as the important facts were recorded wording was a matter of personal preference.

Dates usually appear in long hand, although sometimes they are in Arabic numbers. In longhand they use Latin Ordinal Numbers, which are adjectives. The numbers of the year modify the word anno (the Ablative Singular of annus, anni, m. year). The numbers of the day are also in the Ablative Singular and modify die (the Ablative Singular of dies, diei, f. year). In terms of syntax, this use of the Ablative is called the Ablative of Time At Which and does not require a preposition in Latin. Thus, die tertia means “on the third day”. English needs the preposition, Latin does not.

Attached is a list of both Latin Ordinal Numbers and Cardinal Numbers in their longhand form. It was a handout we used with the Latin I scholars back when they were learning Latin numbers. Perhaps you may find it useful. No final exam will be given.

Alas, the sheets exceed the size limits for attachments. Perhaps I'll be able to convert them, or perhaps not.

If you get bored during the current stay at home time you can play with the Roman Numerals sheet for extra credit. The Arabic Numbers we use sure make math much easier. Who would want to do multiplication and division using Roman Numerals? It is just one of the many things for which we should thank the Arab World.

Good luck,

Dave



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:09 am      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:
a4u2fear wrote:
Dave,

Same for this one, I can read the month November and it is 1772, but I can't figure out the day of the month. France again


Andrew,

Alas, the sheets exceed the size limits for attachments. Perhaps I'll be able to convert them, or perhaps not.

Dave


In PDF format I was able to post the Latin numbers.

I hope you find them of some use.

Dave



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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 8:17 am      Post subject:
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Thanks Dave..... extra credit, you are funny haaha
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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Sat May 16, 2020 7:33 am      Post subject:
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hi dave!

i am confused, as usual.

Hoping you can help me decipher the attached german record.

It came up in familysearch as the baptism of Teresia Berizzi (to Joseph Berizzi and Teresia Maria Lederle). However, normally the name on the right side is the name of the individual getting baptised and as you can see it's not.

Joseph and Teresia were married in 1830 and this is 1827 so the "illegit" makes sense but I can't figure it out



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