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Sophia



Joined: 05 Oct 2014
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Post Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:11 pm      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:


Hi Andrew,
I'm afraid that even after seeing the name in both records my reading of the letters of the mother’s maiden name will be of no help to you. Could it possibly be Ficher? Reading German surnames is not my forte. Sophia is very good at that and perhaps she may be able to shed some light on the name.

Dave



Hi Andrew and Dave,
It's a tough one to read, for sure. Dave, your suggestion of "Ficher" is really quite good. I puzzled over the first letter of her surname, trying to compare to other capital letters on the page. I wondered if it could be an "I" or even a messy "M" but I keep coming back to "F" as the most likely. For sure, it ends in "er." Andrew, you might consider showing it to KMichael8 to see if he concurs with Ficher.
Best of luck,
Sophia
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a4u2fear



Joined: 25 Oct 2019
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:30 am      Post subject:
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thanks Dave and Sophia, i appreciate your time and efforts. the scribe gave us two chances to read the last name and it's still unclear! haha
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Sophia



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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:19 am      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
thanks Dave and Sophia, i appreciate your time and efforts. the scribe gave us two chances to read the last name and it's still unclear! haha


Hi,
It appears that Ferdinand's brother re-married, after his wife died (top of the right page).
I found it only because I was paging through the records, to see if any Ficher appear in any other records; no luck.
Sophia



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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:35 am      Post subject:
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they don't make it easy on my sophia do they? haha. maybe michael will confirm what you and dave thought already.

anyway thanks for finding the additional record! makes things easier on me
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:03 am      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
they don't make it easy on my sophia do they? haha. maybe michael will confirm what you and dave thought already.

anyway thanks for finding the additional record! makes things easier on me


Hi Andrew & Sophia,

Unfortunately the 3rd marriage record did not provide the proverbial charm to determine the maiden name since, as is typical of records of 2nd marriages, there is no information about the parents of the widowed groom. Since a bride or a groom was emancipated from parental control by entering into marriage from that point on the parents fade from records and the new focus is upon the (deceased) spouse. Once again the groom is relinquished from the pastoral responsibility of the parish where he resided (dimissus). This may provide a clue for further research in that at some point during his first marriage he once again resided in Berg. This makes sense since he was a miller and if he owned a mill or worked in a family operation he would not be likely pull up stakes and begin anew because he married.

Good luck & happy searching.

Dave
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Sophia



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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:34 am      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:
a4u2fear wrote:
they don't make it easy on my sophia do they? haha. maybe michael will confirm what you and dave thought already.

anyway thanks for finding the additional record! makes things easier on me


Hi Andrew & Sophia,

Unfortunately the 3rd marriage record did not provide the proverbial charm to determine the maiden name since, as is typical of records of 2nd marriages, there is no information about the parents of the widowed groom. Since a bride or a groom was emancipated from parental control by entering into marriage from that point on the parents fade from records and the new focus is upon the (deceased) spouse. Once again the groom is relinquished from the pastoral responsibility of the parish where he resided (dimissus). This may provide a clue for further research in that at some point during his first marriage he once again resided in Berg. This makes sense since he was a miller and if he owned a mill or worked in a family operation he would not be likely pull up stakes and begin anew because he married.

Good luck & happy searching.

Dave


Hi Dave and Andrew,
Fourth time is the charm!
Not Ficher after all, but rather Mueller. Bottom of the left page, carrying over to the right page.
Best wishes for a lovely weekend, and stay well,
Sophia



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Sophia



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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:04 pm      Post subject:
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Hi Dave,
I cannot make sense of what is happening here. Where I expected to find a Ferdinand Harder/Catherina Mueller marriage record, there was a note saying to go to pages 311 and 312, where, after all the death records, is a note that carries from one page to the next. Can you figure it out? I need to get out and take care of the garden now!
Sophia



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a4u2fear



Joined: 25 Oct 2019
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:13 pm      Post subject:
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wow sophia your persistence paid off!

you even found the baptism that I would spend many hours searching for!

now that i've seen michael's suggestion and your find i agree i see Muller and Miller
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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm      Post subject:
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thanks so much
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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:34 pm      Post subject:
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sophia, you are looking in 7947278? i think marriage start on page 107? is that what you mean?
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dnowicki
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Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:22 pm      Post subject:
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Sophia wrote:
Hi Dave,
I cannot make sense of what is happening here. Where I expected to find a Ferdinand Harder/Catherina Mueller marriage record, there was a note saying to go to pages 311 and 312, where, after all the death records, is a note that carries from one page to the next. Can you figure it out? I need to get out and take care of the garden now!
Sophia


Sophia,

On the first image is the record of the marriage of Ferdinand and Catherine. The second image is a continuation of marriages for the year 1757 but is not a continuation of the record of Ferdinand & Catherine’s marriage. It appears that marriages follow on the same page where deaths end—a way to conserve paper in the register. As usual, much of the record deals with the usual legalities of banns and no impediments. The important stuff is the date of the wedding, January 10, 1757 and the names of the parents of the bride and the groom. The name of Ferdinand’s father appears immediately following Ferdinand’s name. I had a difficult time reading the first letters of the name but the idea occurred to me that the first letter could be X. Putting the letters together it would be Xtophori which leads me to believe that the word is actually Christophori (of Christopher) and that the X is acting like the X in Xmas. Anyway, that is my opinion. His father is deceased but he, like Ferdinand, was a miller so being a miller was the family business. His mother was Anna Maria. (No maiden name given.) Catherine was the daughter of Valentine Müler (as it is written in the entry) and Margaret/Margaretha. (No maiden name given.) As I read the place name, they were from Hagersbach(?).

That’s all, Folks. As the old saying goes, “Officium vocat” (Duty [in the kitchen] calls.

Dave
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Sophia



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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:25 pm      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
sophia, you are looking in 7947278? i think marriage start on page 107? is that what you mean?


Yes, that's the correct film number on FamilySearch.
Now, go to Image 120 of 734 and you will see (left-hand side) where it is directing the reader to skip ahead past the deaths, to pages 311 and 312.

Can I give you another bit of help? When you are on FamilySearch, on the screen that gives you the "Film/Digital Notes," you see that for the three different microfilms for your Berg, there are both a magnifying glass icon and a camera icon in the column for "Format." If you click on the magnifying glass, it lets you search what some kind soul has indexed, from these microfilms. Because your family name is sometimes spelled Harter and sometimes Harder or Hardter (there are those variations in German, before the spelling rules were more solidified), I did the search as Har* with the asterisk acting as a wildcard. Then, when the results showed an event that looked interesting, I made note of its date, then went BACK to the microfilm notes page and clicked on the camera icon. This gets you (as you know) to the actual images. Then I utilized the time-honored "hunt-and-peck" method. As you also know how to do!

As always, best of luck in your search,
Sophia
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Sophia



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Post Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:27 pm      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Hi Dave,
I cannot make sense of what is happening here. Where I expected to find a Ferdinand Harder/Catherina Mueller marriage record, there was a note saying to go to pages 311 and 312, where, after all the death records, is a note that carries from one page to the next. Can you figure it out? I need to get out and take care of the garden now!
Sophia


Sophia,

On the first image is the record of the marriage of Ferdinand and Catherine. The second image is a continuation of marriages for the year 1757 but is not a continuation of the record of Ferdinand & Catherine’s marriage. It appears that marriages follow on the same page where deaths end—a way to conserve paper in the register. As usual, much of the record deals with the usual legalities of banns and no impediments. The important stuff is the date of the wedding, January 10, 1757 and the names of the parents of the bride and the groom. The name of Ferdinand’s father appears immediately following Ferdinand’s name. I had a difficult time reading the first letters of the name but the idea occurred to me that the first letter could be X. Putting the letters together it would be Xtophori which leads me to believe that the word is actually Christophori (of Christopher) and that the X is acting like the X in Xmas. Anyway, that is my opinion. His father is deceased but he, like Ferdinand, was a miller so being a miller was the family business. His mother was Anna Maria. (No maiden name given.) Catherine was the daughter of Valentine Müler (as it is written in the entry) and Margaret/Margaretha. (No maiden name given.) As I read the place name, they were from Hagersbach(?).

That’s all, Folks. As the old saying goes, “Officium vocat” (Duty [in the kitchen] calls.

Dave


Thank you, Dave! I have to say, the Xtophori is one that I never would have figured out. You never cease to amaze me.
I trust that your kitchen duty resulted in something delicious with which to begin the weekend.
Sophia
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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:38 am      Post subject:
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thank you both for your help. I love getting back another generation for many reasons of course, but one is I just love spending time in the church books and finding all the relatives and knowing it will take time to find them all

sophia i did not know about the search function * so thank you for that

have a good weekend everyone
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:37 am      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
thank you both for your help. I love getting back another generation for many reasons of course, but one is I just love spending time in the church books and finding all the relatives and knowing it will take time to find them all

sophia i did not know about the search function * so thank you for that

have a good weekend everyone


Hi Andrew,

Another tidbit from the image of the marriage record Sophia found...Although the final death entry on the page (immediately above the marriage record) is not of one of your relatives it does contain some info which may be of interest to you. It is the death & burial record of a 14 year old girl, Maria Barbara, whose body was found in the water near your ancestors’ mill. Ferdinand discovered the body and what may interest you is that he was accompanied by his brother Alexander. Evidently Ferdinand had at least two siblings, Ludwig & Alexander.

I thought this info may aid your research of your family tree.

Enjoy both your weekend and your research.

Dave

Edit: This Ferdinand is the father, not the brother of Ludwig—a different generation. It is easy to get confused about who is who on the roster without a scorecard.
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