dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:07 pm
Post subject:
| a4u2fear wrote: | Dave,
Yes I can confirm they are of interest but are not directly related to the other entry. The Lederle's are another grandparent. Theobald Lederle is the child of Michael Lederle and Anna Maria (nee unknown). I saw both names here and thought it could be of importance. The writing is fading so I'm sure it makes it very difficult so I apologize.
I still need to review the first anniversary notes you provided and I very much thank you.
Andrew |
Hi Andrew,
Entry #3 describes three bequests/legacies from Anna Maria to the parish church in Berg. The first legacy/bequest was for 75 florins for Masses for the repose of the soul of her late first husband, Michael Lederle, on the anniversaries of his death, which falls in the month of October, with 25 florins being used for each of three anniversaries. (There is some doubt in my mind of the exact date. In the second line a word is added above & before the verb legavit which appears to be ides. The Romans calculated dates in a month in relation to the kalends/calends, nones, and ides. The kalends/calends were the first day of the month; the nones were the 7th day of the months of March, May, July & October and the 5th day in the remaining months; the ides were the 15th day of the months of March, May, July & October and the 13th day in the remaining months. If my interpretation of the added word is correct, the anniversary of his death would be on October 15.) He bequeathed another 75 florins to be divided equally with one half for Jacob Fried, the legitimate son of Michael Fried, and the other half for Theobald Lederle, the stepson of Michael Fried. The entry breaks down the two halves into 37 florins and another currency value abbreviation with which I am not familiar, which appears to be xr. When 75 florins are divided in half it is obvious that each half is 37 florins and change but I have no idea what the change would be. I’m not sure of the number. I clearly read 30 but what appears to be the number 8 is between the abbreviation for florins and the number 30—all mysterious to me. The entry concludes with a statement that the arrangement makes everything equal for the two heirs (i.e. Jacob & Theobald).
I did not give a verbatim translation for this entry, but not for the same reason as for the previous record. There was no excess of flowery verbiage, but it seemed to me that a free summary would better explain the content rather than a literal word for word translation—especially since much of the entry deals with sums of money.
Hope this is helpful.
Dave
Last edited by dnowicki on Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:29 pm
Post subject:
Dave
This is great information. Thanks for all your hard work I appreciate it.
The Christopher Harder and Anna Maria further confirms what I already knew and also adds a special touch.
The other record, I need to sit down and figure out. I never knew Anna Maria remarried after Michael died. So, more searching for the second marriage because I do not know her maiden name.
Oddly enough, Jacob Fried marries one of Christopher Harder and Anna Maria Heber's daughters so in the end the two records are related family! I guess that happens a lot in the same parish way back in the day.
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:49 pm
Post subject:
Strange monkey wrench dave. Anna Maria (Michael Fried's wife) passed away in 1759 (I found entry), but this entry on this page appears to be from 1760. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:52 pm
Post subject:
ugh now I'm thoroughly confused! The 2nd entry on that page and the 4th (you translated the 3rd) all appear to be the same family and names. All 1760
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angelheredia
Joined: 20 Oct 2020
Replies: 3
Location: ArgentinaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:33 pm
Post subject: Translation request
Hi, im from Argentina, my granfather was polish, I think his birth town is now Ukraine. I have this copy from a baptism testimony, i want to know what data can i extract from here to start looking for the original one.
My appreciation in advance.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:41 pm
Post subject:
| a4u2fear wrote: | | ugh now I'm thoroughly confused! The 2nd entry on that page and the 4th (you translated the 3rd) all appear to be the same family and names. All 1760 |
Andrew,
Your response made me look at the entire page and all four entries are for the same family and grammatically entries 2, 3, & 4 are subordinate purpose clauses which spell out how the legacies/bequests are to be used. You are correct that Anna Maria had died and thus she was not the person making the bequest in #3. After I read the entire page it became clear that it was Michael Fried Sr. who was setting up the legacies. It was like he was putting everything in order including the things which predated his marriage to Anna Maria. (BTW There are too many Anna Marias and Michaels to keep the players straight without a scorecard and I don’t have one. Also, forget that stuff about the inserted word being ides. The word repeats in the other entries and there clearly is the adverb ideo.) Here is the Latin which begins #3: “ut etiam pro antecessore* suo Michaele Lederle uxsoris suae Annae Mariae p.m. marito primo p.m. anniversarium solemne in mense Octobris legeretur ideo legavit...” Translation: “in order that also for his precursor* Michael Lederle, the late first husband of his late wife Anna Maria, a solemn anniversary (Mass) might be read (i.e. offered/celebrated) therefore he bequeathed...” The rest of the info, the bequests and the people for whom they were made remains the same as in my earlier post except that Michael Fried Sr. is doing the arrangements.
Note: antecessor/precusor: just a fancy way of saying that he was Anna Maria's first husband.
Entry #4 may be worth looking at as it ends in mid-sentence and therefore most likely must continue on the following page. Who knows what imfo you may find there? Here is the translation of the portion of #4 found on this page: “in order that in the month of July two votive requiem Masses might be read (i.e. offered/celebrated) for the parents of the above named Michael Fried, of which the first should be for his father, also named Michael Fried, and the second for his mother also Anna Maria with the surname...”
Where is that scorecard when you really need it?
Here is the translation of #2: “in order that in the month of October a solemn anniversary (Mass) might be read (i.e. offered/celebrated) for his wife Anna Maria therefore from the above named 75 florins he bequeathed again 25 florins to the church in Berg.
Wishing you success getting the wrenches out of the gears of your research,
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Translation request
| angelheredia wrote: | Hi, im from Argentina, my granfather was polish, I think his birth town is now Ukraine. I have this copy from a baptism testimony, i want to know what data can i extract from here to start looking for the original one.
My appreciation in advance. |
Hi Angel,
The certificate should contain all the information which is found in the Birth & Baptism Register. The village is now in Ukraine so that would be the place to look for additional records. The Greek Catholic Parish is also known as the Ukrainian Catholic Parish.
Here follows the translation of the certificate. Given names are translated into Polish and English.
Wishing you success,
Dave
Top of Certificate: The Republic of Poland
Left Side: Diocese: Stanisławo
Parish: Lisowce
Center: Number (of certificate issued): 13/37 (#13 in 1937)
Right Side: Województwo (Province): Tarnopol
District/Powiat (County): Zalosce
Certificate of birth and of baptism
From the parish office of the Greek Rite Catholic Church under the title of the Blessed Virgin Mary Protectoress it is made known and attested that in the registers of this church for Liscowce Volume VIII, Page 279 is found the following:
Col. 1: Year, month, and day of birth, of Baptism, and of Confirmation: May 17, 1928 (in numerals)
In the year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred Twenty-Eight on the 17th day of May (in longhand)
Col. 2: House Number: Lisowce Number 111
Col. 3: NAME: Piotr/Peter
Col. 4: Religion: Greek Catholic
Col. 5: Sex/Gender: a boy
Col 6: The (marital) bed: Legitimate
Col. 7: PARENTS AND(THEIR) STATUS/OCCUPATION/CONDITION: Daniel, the son of Stefan/Stephen and of Zofia/Sophia née Biłoz(?); Anastazja/Anastasia Szymkiw(?) and of Paraskewa/Parascheva Błaskiw(?)
Col 8: SPONSORS AND (THEIR) STATUS/OCCUPATION/CONDITION: Stefan/Stephen Dromyk (&) Tekla/Thecla Sobczyszyn
Priest baptizing: Wiktor/Victor Lozynskyj, pastor of this place
Midwife: Dana Lozynska
Which Certificate I sign with my own had and affirm with the seal of the parish church.
Lisowce on the 20th day of February in the Year of Our Lord 1937.
Signature of the pastor (in 1937) with the parish seal
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K_Bialoruski
Joined: 18 Feb 2019
Replies: 4
Location: ChicagoBack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 pm
Post subject: Kanna baptism record
Wondering if someone can help me I interpret the names and background on the attached Bialoruski record. Where is house 55 located? Wonder if it’s still there in Kanna
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angelheredia
Joined: 20 Oct 2020
Replies: 3
Location: ArgentinaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:11 am
Post subject:
I can't thank you enough!
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:43 am
Post subject: Re: Kanna baptism record
| K_Bialoruski wrote: | | Wondering if someone can help me I interpret the names and background on the attached Bialoruski record. Where is house 55 located? Wonder if it’s still there in Kanna |
Hi,
The record is in Latin. Here follows a translation of the headings and of the entries. I can’t help you with your questions about house #55. My ancestors were not from Galicia so I have no personal experience researching house numbers in that area. However, Cadastral maps of some places in Galicia, which show property as it was in the 19th Century, do exist but I have no advice to give regarding locating such maps and coordinating them with contemporary maps. Perhaps someone else can advise you on that matter. The Latin given names in the record are translated into their Polish form. Two versions are given for the name Stephen. Both are legit in Polish.
I hope this helps somewhat.
Wishing you success,
Dave
Col. 1 N(ume)rus Serialis = Number in order: 12
Col. 2: 1855 (Year at top) Dies et Mensis = Day and Month:
Col. 2a: Nat(ivitatis) = of birth: December 28, 1855
Col. 2b: Bapt(ismi) = of baptism: December 30, 1855
Col. 3: N(ume)ro Domus = at house number: 55
Col. 4: Nomen Baptisati = Name of person baptized: Antoni
Col. 5: Religio = Religion
Col. 5a: Catholica = Catholic: Checked
Col. 5b: Acatholica= Non-Catholic: Blank
Col. 6: Sexus = Sex/Gender
Col. 6a: Puer = Boy: Checked
Col. 6b: Puella = Girl: Blank
Col. 7: Thori = of the (marital) bed
Col. 7a: Legitimi = Legitimate: Checked
Col. 7b: Illegitimi = Illegitimate: Blank
Col. 8: PARENTES = PARENTS
Col. 8a: PATRIS ac parentum nomen, cognomen et conditio ejus = The name of the father and the first and surname of his parents (i.e. the paternal grandparents of the child) and his condition/status/occupation: Stefan/Szczepan Białoruski, the son of Michał & of Katarzyna Mastalerz (the next line gives the father’s occupation but the letters are not legible because the surname of the priest overlaps some of them.
Notation at bottom of Cols. 1-8a: The midwife was Maryanna Mastalerz. I, Jan Wilk(?), baptized (him).
Col. 8b: MATRIS ac parentum nomen, cognomen et conditio = The name of the mother and also the first and surnames of her parents (i.e. the maternal grandparents of the child) and their condition/status/occupation: Anna Górska, the daughter of Wincenty and of Tekla (née) Kuzdrzat
Col. 9: PATRINI = Sponsors EORUM = Their
Col. 9a & b: Nomen et Cognomen et Conditio = First and Surname(s) and Condition/Occupation/ Status: Stanisław Gancarz, assistant pastor (&) Aniela Librewska, the wife of Jakub, the organist of this place.
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a4u2fear
Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USABack to top |
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:31 pm
Post subject:
haha thanks Dave. You've cleared a patch of space in a muddy pond! I'm trying to keep track of all the family but yes too many Anna Maria's. It's also too bad these marriages of these couples do not exist so I can't get the real timing of the events and surnames.
more questions to follow!
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bfabus
Joined: 22 Oct 2020
Replies: 1
Location: Wisconsin, United StatesBack to top |
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:29 am
Post subject: undecipherable in Latin church record
I cannot make out an Latin phrases or words in this snarl. It is the cause of his death. I have translated everything else except the cause of death and the comments. If you have any insight I would appreciate it. I cannot imagine what it could say.
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Bfab
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angelheredia
Joined: 20 Oct 2020
Replies: 3
Location: ArgentinaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:35 pm
Post subject:
Good evening, this is the back side of my grandfather's baptism certificate. Can you help me to extract any useful data, i dont know if ther are only legalizations or there is any passport number or id that i cant see.
Thank you very much
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:39 pm
Post subject:
| angelheredia wrote: | Good evening, this is the back side of my grandfather's baptism certificate. Can you help me to extract any useful data, i dont know if ther are only legalizations or there is any passport number or id that i cant see.
Thank you very much |
Angel,
There are only legal authorizations in Polish without any useful information such as a passport number. There are plenty of revenue stamps indicating that various offices collected their fees.
Como sabes tambien el secretario in Argentina firmo confirmando que era una copia fiel del original—tambien sin informacion importante.
Deseandote exito,
Dave
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TedMack
Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Replies: 480
Location: Sydney, AustraliaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:03 am
Post subject: Latin Records Translations
G'day Dave
I've been back looking at the Rychnow Parish records and have found these records from 1730 (right hand page) and just want to confirm that I am looking at them correctly as Birth records. I was hoping you could have a look and confirm please.
Cheers
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