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Latin records translations
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:22 pm      Post subject: Re: Old Latin records
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Lori Love wrote:
dnowicki wrote:


There is very little meaty information in the marriage record of Mateusz & Maryanna. Most of the entry is recording the fact that the ecclesiastical requirements for a valid and licit religious marriage had been fulfilled. I’ll translate the entire entry and leave it up to you to decide what is significant to you. It is probably disappointing that there is very little info a genealogist would like to find in the record. Here is the translation.

Top of entry: (Village of) Sulinowo
Body of entry: In the year as above (1783) after the announcements of the banns had been proclaimed and since no impediment had been discovered I, the same who is named above, questioned the newlyweds, the industrious* Mateusz and Maryanna, and received their mutual consent in words concerning the present marriage** and blessed (their marriage) in the presence of the witnesses Wojciech Wotalik and Paweł (illegible word) and many others from the same village.

Notes: *laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate the bride & groom as peasants.
**de praesenti matrimonio/concerning the present marriage: This technical phrase makes it explicit that the couple consented to marry in real time as opposed to consenting to marry at a future time. The verbal consent given in the presence of the priest and the witnesses by the newlyweds comprised the act by which the sacrament of marriage was confected. According to Catholic theology the bride & groom are the ministers of the sacrament. The priest is not the minister but is the first of the witnesses and the person who blesses the marriage on behalf of the Catholic Church.

The image of the 1820 marriage which you posted and the link you provided are two copies of the record of the same marriage. Although they vary slightly in form, they contain the same information. A portion of the record deals with legal civil permission for the orphaned underage bride to marry. The Latin word order is cumbersome in English so I switched the order somewhat in order to make the translation easier to understand.

Number of Marriage for the year: 6
Date of Wedding: December 2, 1820
Residence of Bride: Village of Sulinowo
After the three banns had been promulgated on 3 consecutive Sundays during the solemnities of Masses in both parishes—by reason of the underage bride, Katarzyna, orphaned by (both) father & mother, having ?? in the village of Królewskie* Cotoń in the parish of Lubcz, a certificate written by the guardianship court of the territory of Gniezno was acquired by the industrious** Szymon Adamiak, a settler*** from the village of Cotoń, and turned over to the Acts of the church in Gorzyce—and since no canonical impediment had been detected, I, the same who is above, blessed the legitimately contracted marriage between the industrious** Józef Cielecki, a bachelor, 21 years of age from the village of Jaroszewo in the parish of Żnin, and the industrious** Katarzyna Adamiak, a maiden, 19 years of age from Sulinowo, in the presence of the industrious** Mateusz Cielecscabinuski, settler*** from Jaroszewo, the father of the groom, the industrious** Wojciech Kornet, an alderman**** from Sulinowo, the industrious** Szymon Zuromski, the industrious**Marcin Felcyn from Gorzyce, and many others worthy of trust.

Notes: * Regale Cotoń/Królewskie Cotoń: Regalis/Royal is rendered as Królewskie in Polish, On current maps the place is simply Cotoń.
**laboriosus/industrious: The adjective was used to designate individuals as peasants.
***colonus/settler/farmer: The word was used with various meanings during the 18th & 19th Centuries.
****scabinus/alderman: the term signifies that the person held a minor civil administrative position.

I hope that these translations help to advance your research.

Dave



Hello Dave,
Thank you for your fantastic translations and explanations. On the first record, the marriage of Mateusz & Maryanna, you wrote, 'This technical phrase makes it explicit that the couple consented to marry in real-time as opposed to consenting to marry at a future time.' Are you saying that the couple decided to get married, had some family and friends gather, stated their commitment, and they are considered married? I have read years ago that even in Minnesota that the snow was bad and travel was risky in the winter so a couple would make a declaration to their family and be considered married. In the spring when the weather was better, the priest would bless the marriage.

The 2nd document is the 1820 marriage of the underage bride, Katarzyna, who was an orphan. In stating it was a 'legitimately contracted marriage', does this mean it was an arranged marriage? The name, 'Mateusz Cielecscabinuski', seems to refer to the father of Jozef who was Mateusz Cielecki. Is that a suffix added to the last name or does it have some other meaning?
Again, thank you for your wonderful work!
Lori


Hi Lori,

In regard to the 1783 marriage record what you had read is basically accurate but that is not exactly what is meant by the phrase “de praesenti matrimonio/concerning the present marriage". Marriage as a sacrament has a long and somewhat complex history. First of all, the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and the groom, not the priest. In fact, in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church a priest (at least since the Middle Ages) cannot be the minister of the sacrament. Because of the obligation of celibacy he has given up the right to marry. (The same is not true of the Eastern Rite Catholics [in Polish records referred to as Greek Catholics] But that is another topic for another day.) It was only after the Protestant Reformation that the presence of a priest was required. In short, the Council of Trent required the presence of a priest along with two other witnesses. The priest was one of the three official witnesses and was the person who blessed the marriage in the name of the Church. Church law always made provisions for a couple to validly marry without the presence of a priest if it would be too difficult for a priest to be present or if the couple would have to wait an unreasonable amount of time for a priest to be available. You are correct that the couple could simply exchange vows in the presence of witnesses. (The witnesses did not need to be family.) When a priest was available the couple and the witnesses informed him of the exchange of vows and then he would give the nuptial blessing. It is interesting that you mention Minnesota. A set of my wife’s ancestors were French Canadians who settle near Minneapolis & St. Paul. They married in the Cathedral of the Diocese of St. Paul in 1850, just after the state was admitted to the Union. Usually we think of a Cathedral as a grand building. The attached drawing of the Cathedral of St. Paul in about 1850 shows how wrong such a view can be.

Back to “the present marriage”...Marriage was and still is viewed by the Catholic Church as a contract between the bride and the groom. This contract gave each party certain rights and also imposed certain obligations. The contract needed to be ratified and consummated (ratum et consummatum) for it to be valid and binding. The ratifying part was done with words as the couple exchanged vows. The consummation took place in the marital bed. In the record the contract was being ratified when Mateusz & Maryanna expressed their mutual consent in words. That was “the present marriage” part of the story. A “future marriage” (Matrimonium de futuro) was a promise exchanged between the couple to marry in the future. Such a promise was binding but not as binding as the vows of “a present marriage”. A contract for a future marriage was usually the stuff done by the nobility rather than the peasantry. Nobles had more property which was part of the marriage contract and thus the promise to marry was a bigger deal. The promise of the future marriage can be likened to a formal betrothal. It was similar, but not identical, to what we know as an engagement—except that engagements usually don’t involve formal promises made before witnesses. In earlier times we read of a groom who got cold feet and didn’t show up on the wedding day being sued in civil court for “breach of promise”.

In the 1820 record the statement that it was legitimately contracted marriage does not imply that it was what we would mean by “an arranged marriage”. It refers to the above explanation of marriage as a contract. It is stating that there was no impediment standing in the way and that the marriage ceremony took place according to the laws of the State and of the Church. That does not mean that the families of the bride and the groom did not have a hand in the arranging of the marriage. 19th Century marriages in Poland (and also in the States) were looked at as a way of binding families together for the benefit of each family—hence the emphasis on the consent of the parents or guardians. The presence of the father of the groom at the ceremony and the legal stuff about the orphaned underage bride are indicative of parental and tutorial consent to the marriage.

The mysterious suffix attached to the surname of the father of the groom is simply an error. I’m not sure how it got there but I will edit the posted translation to remove it. I think that it got there as the result of a bad cut & paste. As I mentioned, I changed around the word order in English so that the translation would flow better and make better sense in English. The entire entry in Latin is one long sentence with multiple subordinate clauses. I usually work offline when translating and just follow the Latin as I read the entry. I then rearrange word order when necessary by cutting and pasting the draft. This entry required considerable cutting & pasting to produce something that made sense to anyone who was not fluent in Latin. The suffix must have been the result of cutting and pasting gone wild. Sorry about that. The translation has been amended.

If you are interested in the history of marriage as a sacrament I would recommend that you read Marriage : Human Reality and Saving Mystery by the late Dominican theologian Edward Schillebeeckx. It is the best historical analysis I've seen.

I hope the explanation answers your questions.

Dave



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Magroski49
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Post Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:34 am      Post subject: Re: Antoni Magroski 1st marriage 1775
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[/quote]
Hi Gilberto,

Antoni’s age is not recorded in the marriage record from 1775. Here is the translation, omitting the usual legalities about the banns, no impediments, etc.

With the hope that you and your family are staying well during the pandemic,

Dave

Włocławek and from Raciązek. February 25 (1775)
The same above named vicar ratified the marriage (the usual legalities follow) between the upright* Antoni Magroski, a single young man from Raciązek, who for two years maintained**** a domicile in Włocławek with his mother,** and Anna Klennicka, from a/the suburb***, (both) parishioners of Włocławek. The upright Michał Ochocinski, Andrzej Kozinski, Baltazar Dygeta, (&) Stefan/Szczepan Sobecki, residents from a/the suburb were the witness present (at the marriage).

Notes: *honestus/upright: an adjective denoting an individual as a peasant. Here it is plural and thus refers to both the groom and the bride.
**mother/genetrix: usually is translated as mother, but can refer to direct line female ancestors like a grandmother. I would say that mother is the most likely meaning, but it could refer to his grandmother—especially if his mother was deceased and his grandmother was still living.
***a suburb/the suburb: Whether suburbio should be translated with the definite or the indefinite article would depend on how many places outside the limits of the town of Włocławek were considered suburbs of the town.
****maintained/ contraxit: The verb contraho has multiple meanings. Most often in such records it is used in the sense of contracted, as in matrimonium contraxit (he contracted marriage). Here I believe that “maintained” fits best in the context.[/quote]

Dave,
Thank you very much for your translation and concerning. All family members are safe along these pandemic days.
Wishing you and your family a Merry Christmas!

Gilberto
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td85



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:03 pm      Post subject:
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Hello,

Hopefully I'm not being a bother, but recently I've discovered a connection between my Strzelecki relatives of Posada Rybotycka and possible Strzelecki relatives of Trzcianiec and Krywe. I'm having a much more difficult time reading the Trzcianiec and Krywe church records than with the Posada Rybotycka records, so some help would be appreciated very much. Thank you, and hopefully I've put this in the right thread this time!



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House 13 - Stefan, son of Jan Melnika and Ewa??? Strzeleck, married Anna, daughter of Hryc Klym? and Ewa? Szymczyk
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1833 - House 13 - Theodor Strzelecki married Anna Wruszczak? (all I can make out in that section. Interestingly, I'm a DNA match with a Wruszczak on GEDMatch)
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:10 pm      Post subject:
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td85 wrote:
Hello,

Hopefully I'm not being a bother, but recently I've discovered a connection between my Strzelecki relatives of Posada Rybotycka and possible Strzelecki relatives of Trzcianiec and Krywe. I'm having a much more difficult time reading the Trzcianiec and Krywe church records than with the Posada Rybotycka records, so some help would be appreciated very much. Thank you, and hopefully I've put this in the right thread this time!


Hi,

I’m not sure of the best place to post these records. The headings are in Latin as are some of the entries. The entries not in Latin are in Polish. Thus the document is actually a hybrid. There is very little in the records which needs to be translated—just a few words. Some of your uncertainties revolve around Polish case endings and other uncertainties involve reading the handwritten script.
I’m not able to read the letters of the first name of Julianna’s father. Your interpretation of the handwriting would most likely be better than mine. The name is in the Nominative (Polish: mianownik) Singular so his name would be the same as how it appears in the entry. The Nominative is the subject case and here answers the question “Who?” (Polish: “kto?”) Julianna was born on November 16 and baptized & confirmed on November 20.

The wedding of Stefan & Anna took place on November 20. Both the father of the groom (Jan Melnik) and the father of the bride (Hryc Klymowicz) were deceased. The letters sp before their names are the abbreviation for świętej pamięci (of holy/pious memory), which in English can be translated as “the late”. The surnames appear as Melnika and Klymowicza because they a both in the Genitive (Polish: dopełniacz) The Genitive is the case which denotes possession and here answers the question “Whose?/of whom?” (Polish: “kogo?”) In order to determine the Nominative the Genitive ending “a” is removed and thus you end up with Melnik & Klymowicz. The same happens with the given names, which you already did. The given name of the mother of the bride and of the mother of the groom is Ewa. Again, the form in the record is Ewy, which is the Genitive Singular. The Nominative is retrieved by dropping the Genitive Singular Feminine ending, “y” and restoring the Nominative Singular ending “a”. The names are in the Genitive because of the words “syn” (son) & “córka” (daughter). The answer to the question “Whose son/daughter?” requires that the names of the parents be in the Genitive. The same rule for Cases applies for entries in Latin.

The wedding of Teodor & Anna took place on September 8. I cannot read the given name of Anna’s father but his surname does appear to be Wnuszczak. The mother’s given name appears to be “Kashi”, which, as explained above, would be the Genitive Singular Feminine. According to the usual rules, the Nominative would be Kasha, a name with which I’m completely unfamiliar. I am only able to read the following letters of the maiden name: W….kowicz. Some off the wall thoughts about Kasha...The sh combination of letters strikes me as very strange. A more Polish combo would be Kasia. Kasia is a diminutive of Katarzyna. My problem with interpreting the name as a diminutive is that diminutives don’t really fit in formal records. On the other hand, the bride is a 42 year old maiden, which would make her parents at least near 60. Is it possible that the priest knew the parents well and for a long time and was accustomed to use the diminutive forms of their given names and the entry was just a carryover from that familiarity?

Wishing you continued successful research,

Dave
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td85



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Post Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:27 pm      Post subject:
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dnowicki wrote:
td85 wrote:
Hello,

Hopefully I'm not being a bother, but recently I've discovered a connection between my Strzelecki relatives of Posada Rybotycka and possible Strzelecki relatives of Trzcianiec and Krywe. I'm having a much more difficult time reading the Trzcianiec and Krywe church records than with the Posada Rybotycka records, so some help would be appreciated very much. Thank you, and hopefully I've put this in the right thread this time!


Hi,

I’m not sure of the best place to post these records. The headings are in Latin as are some of the entries. The entries not in Latin are in Polish. Thus the document is actually a hybrid. There is very little in the records which needs to be translated—just a few words. Some of your uncertainties revolve around Polish case endings and other uncertainties involve reading the handwritten script.
I’m not able to read the letters of the first name of Julianna’s father. Your interpretation of the handwriting would most likely be better than mine. The name is in the Nominative (Polish: mianownik) Singular so his name would be the same as how it appears in the entry. The Nominative is the subject case and here answers the question “Who?” (Polish: “kto?”) Julianna was born on November 16 and baptized & confirmed on November 20.

The wedding of Stefan & Anna took place on November 20. Both the father of the groom (Jan Melnik) and the father of the bride (Hryc Klymowicz) were deceased. The letters sp before their names are the abbreviation for świętej pamięci (of holy/pious memory), which in English can be translated as “the late”. The surnames appear as Melnika and Klymowicza because they a both in the Genitive (Polish: dopełniacz) The Genitive is the case which denotes possession and here answers the question “Whose?/of whom?” (Polish: “kogo?”) In order to determine the Nominative the Genitive ending “a” is removed and thus you end up with Melnik & Klymowicz. The same happens with the given names, which you already did. The given name of the mother of the bride and of the mother of the groom is Ewa. Again, the form in the record is Ewy, which is the Genitive Singular. The Nominative is retrieved by dropping the Genitive Singular Feminine ending, “y” and restoring the Nominative Singular ending “a”. The names are in the Genitive because of the words “syn” (son) & “córka” (daughter). The answer to the question “Whose son/daughter?” requires that the names of the parents be in the Genitive. The same rule for Cases applies for entries in Latin.

The wedding of Teodor & Anna took place on September 8. I cannot read the given name of Anna’s father but his surname does appear to be Wnuszczak. The mother’s given name appears to be “Kashi”, which, as explained above, would be the Genitive Singular Feminine. According to the usual rules, the Nominative would be Kasha, a name with which I’m completely unfamiliar. I am only able to read the following letters of the maiden name: W….kowicz. Some off the wall thoughts about Kasha...The sh combination of letters strikes me as very strange. A more Polish combo would be Kasia. Kasia is a diminutive of Katarzyna. My problem with interpreting the name as a diminutive is that diminutives don’t really fit in formal records. On the other hand, the bride is a 42 year old maiden, which would make her parents at least near 60. Is it possible that the priest knew the parents well and for a long time and was accustomed to use the diminutive forms of their given names and the entry was just a carryover from that familiarity?

Wishing you continued successful research,

Dave


Appreciated as always, Dave! I guess I must be better at reading these than I give myself credit for. Razz
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Moni



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Post Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:51 pm      Post subject: Birth Record #1...in Latin?
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I think this is a birth record in Latin.

Here's what I think I know:

Subject: Martin Zielke
Date: 15 Nov 1795
Place: Czermno Troszyn
Parents: George Zielke & Marianna Fengler

Can someone translate this document for me? I'm wondering if my information is correct or if there is anything else I can glean from this document.

Thanks!



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Moni



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Post Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:57 pm      Post subject: Birth Record #2...in Latin?
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I think this is a birth record in Latin.

This is what I think I know:

Birth of Elisabeth Ratz
Date: 8 Feb 1792
Place: Wiaczemin, Troszyn
Parents: Michael Ratz & Marianna (?)

Can someone translate this document to see my information is correct or if there is any other information present in the document?

Thanks (again)!



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Moni



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:04 am      Post subject: Birth Record #3...in Latin?
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I think this is a birth record in Latin.

This is what I think I know:

Birth of George Zielke
Date: 15 Oct 1783
Place: Sady, Troszyn
Parents: Johannes Zielke & Christine Prochnau

I could be wrong, but I think the birth record begins below the grey line and asterisk is. If I'm correct, then i have no interest in the record above the grey line and asterisk.

Thanks!



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Moni



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:12 am      Post subject: Record #4...in Latin?
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This is the last record that I think is in Latin.

I have no idea if this is a birth or marriage record.

I recognize possible names in the document: Jacob Knopp and Catharina (maybe a variation of Stray?)

I know that Jakob Knop was born in Białobrzegi, near Płock.

Can someone help me make sense of this document?

Thank you!



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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:25 am      Post subject: Re: Record #4...in Latin?
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Moni wrote:
This is the last record that I think is in Latin.

I have no idea if this is a birth or marriage record.

I recognize possible names in the document: Jacob Knopp and Catharina (maybe a variation of Stray?)

I know that Jakob Knop was born in Białobrzegi, near Płock.

Can someone help me make sense of this document?

Thank you!


Hi Moni,

I'll translate the docs you posted in the fairly near future—if not before Xmas then soon after the holiday. The final post is the record of the marriage of Jacob/Jakub & Catharina/Katarzyna.

Merry Christmas.

Dave
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:18 am      Post subject: Re: Record #4...in Latin?
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Moni wrote:
This is the last record that I think is in Latin.

I have no idea if this is a birth or marriage record.

I recognize possible names in the document: Jacob Knopp and Catharina (maybe a variation of Stray?)

I know that Jakob Knop was born in Białobrzegi, near Płock.

Can someone help me make sense of this document?

Thank you!


Hi Moni,
Looking at this image, the top of the page says "AS2137 Seite 00028 Rechts." It means that you are seeing the right-hand side of page 28. When these books were microfilmed, they sometimes filmed all the right-hand sides of pages in a group, and all the left-hand sides of pages in a group. That means that somewhere on that film will be "AS2137 Seite 00028 Links" (the left side). For records that are written across both left and right sides of a page, it is necessary to do a bit of searching to get both parts of a record. That may not be the case for this one, I can't tell, but I wanted to mention it, Moni, in case you have not encountered this before.

Hi Dave,
I see the page header is in Latin. But isn't the text actually written in German?

Best wishes for a happy holiday to you both!
Sophia
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nick3371



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Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:15 pm      Post subject:
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Hello!

I have a few records for translation listed below. I know that theres a lot but they are all very short. Please take your time and enjoy the holidays!

1. Fornal, Teodora Death 1814
2. Ligocki, Walenty and Cierniak, Apolonia Marriage 1814
3. Sobczak, Benedict Death 1813
4. Ligocki, Mikolaj Death 1800
5. Ligocki, Mikolaj and Fornal ,Teodora Marriage 1780
6. Ligocki, Majiec Birth 1816
7. Kurtos, Zuzanna Marriage 2 1814
8. Duruz, Urszula Cierniak Death 1819
9. Kurtos, Zuzanna Death 1845
10. Cierniak, Florian Marriage 2 1820 possible

Best,

Nick



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nick3371



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Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:17 pm      Post subject:
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Here are the others! I appreciate your time and expertise! Thank you so much! Happy Holidays!

Nick



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Luby17



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Post Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:58 am      Post subject: Birth certificate translation
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Hi,

If possible I would like to ask to translate the birth and baptism certificate.

Thanks



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Post Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:57 am      Post subject: Re: Birth certificate translation
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Luby17 wrote:
Hi,

If possible I would like to ask to translate the birth and baptism certificate.

Thanks


This document is written in latin.
If You ask for translation here: https://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?t=1759 You will get the answer:

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please remember that my translations are volunteering so whenever you want to send money remember that this is a gift, not a payment.
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