Forum | PolishOrigins :: View topic - Latin records translations

Author

Message

starshadow
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 09 May 2013
Replies: 305

Back to top

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:54 am Post subject:

Here is a marriage bann from Krosno Poland about 1870. As far as I can find out, the marriage never occurred. Are there any clues in the document about what happened? Thanks.

06-wilk-dlugosz-banns-1870.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

1.74 MB

Viewed:

0 Time(s)

rjbenben

Joined: 22 May 2019
Replies: 17

Back to top

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:55 am Post subject:

dnowicki wrote:

rjbenben wrote:

Need some help with a few latin words and a name. Below are two birth record entries from the Podkarpackie region for two sons of Aloysius Götz – my gg grandfather. We were told his family was in the railroad industry in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I believe he was from Krakow but was stationed in the Village of Trzciana (a railroad stop) for a few years in the 1890s and later his family lived in Dembica for a time. I recently located these two records. I have circled and numbered the areas of interest in red. Here are my partial translations:

1 - _____ viæ ferreæ = ____ railroad (can’t make out the first word)
2 – Name: Wodziak or Wodiczk
3 - _________ officialii viæ ferreæ = ___________ railroad official
4 - _________ viæ ferreæ = ____________ railroad

The unknown word in 3 and 4 appear to be the same. I would very much appreciate any input on these unknown (to me) words.

Thanks, Bob Benbenek

Hi Bob,

The full page images help somewhat. Here is what I see in Adolf Franciszek’s record. The family was living in aula viae ferreae which translates as the railroad hall/dwelling. I take it that since you stated that the village was located on a rairoad line there was a company building where those employed by the railroad were provided with living space. The Polish translation of aula is dwór and is usually found to indicate a manor house of the rural szlachta.

The cross and the date above Adolf’s name is the date of his death.

I see the name as Wodziaka, the feminine version of Wodziak.

The occupation is more difficult to read since the handwriting is smaller but it looks to me like inspiciens, the Nominative Singular Masculine of the Present Active Participle of the verb inspicio, to inspect. If my reading of the letters is correct it is being used as a substantive and could be translated as “the one inspecting” or simply as “inspector” of the railroad.

The record for Eugeniusz is very similar. The place of residence is the same. The name is the same although the scribe omitted the letter z. In my opinion the correct version is as it appears in Adolf’s record. The occupation is the same with the addition of the adjective officialis (inspiciens officialis). It may be translated as “the official inspector of the railroad". It is repeated in the final column without the adjective. The attached map shows the two main east-west Railways in late 19th Century Galicia. The RR which ran through Trzciana and Dembica is the northern line, the Gal. Carl. Line. The southern line is the Austrian State Railroad. My guess is that he would have been responsible for inspecting a portion of the line rather than the entire line. Rail lines required regular inspection especially before steel rails came into widespread use. The earlier rails were iron and tended to warp and thus needed regular inspection to minimize the dangers posed by the material. In the USA the switch to steel rails began in about 1880.

Anyway, this is how I see what is written but cannot say that my reading of the letters is 100% accurate.

I hope this helps to answer your questions.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave

rjbenben

Joined: 22 May 2019
Replies: 17

Back to top

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:57 am Post subject:

Dave:

Thank you so much for your insightful response. The information about the railway during the late 1800s was also very helpful.
Thank you! Bob

a4u2fear

Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USA
Back to top

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:32 pm Post subject:

hey dave,

hope you are well. I am looking for a double check on these infants ages at their time of death. these are from Bas-Rhin in France

1741 (top right entry) - anna maria wirri - 18 months old at death?

1745 (bot right entry) - anna maria wirri - 1 month old at death?

Thanks,
Andrew

1745 death anna maria wirri.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

1745 death anna maria wirri.pdf

Filesize:

593.3 KB

Downloaded:

189 Time(s)

1741 death anna maria wirri.pdf

Description:

1741 death anna maria wirri

Download

Filename:

1741 death anna maria wirri.pdf

Filesize:

616.46 KB

Downloaded:

206 Time(s)

starshadow
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 09 May 2013
Replies: 305

Back to top

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:33 pm Post subject:

Oops, sorry. That marriage bann is in Polish.

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:31 pm Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Yo Andrew,

Like they say, "Another day, another A." You aced both. The ages are 100% correct.

Looking forward to another A next time,

Dave

a4u2fear

Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USA
Back to top

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:37 am Post subject:

Woo woo haha thanks for confirmation

a4u2fear

Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USA
Back to top

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:13 am Post subject:

Hey Dave,

I need a full translation here. Some of the words are hard for me to read as well as the handwriting is tough.

I *think this is one of my great grandfathers, Nicolas Henry Schilling, from Riethnordhausen (Thüringen/Saxony) is denouncing his Lutheran Faith.

It is from Wittring parish in Moselle, France, 1741

Thanks.

nicolas henry schilling.pdf

Description:

nicolas henry schilling

Download

Filename:

nicolas henry schilling.pdf

Filesize:

1.06 MB

Downloaded:

176 Time(s)

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:13 am Post subject:

a4u2fear wrote:

Hi Andrew,

The entry is the record of the conversion of Nicholas to the Catholic Faith. Although the entry appears in the baptismal register it is not a record of his baptism which took place in the Lutheran Church most likely when he was an infant. Baptism is one of the three Sacraments which can only be received once and since the Catholic Church recognized the validity of Lutheran baptisms he was already baptized. For a validly baptized non-Catholic to convert to Catholicism the individual simply renounced the teachings of the faith in which they had been baptized which did not conform to Catholic teaching and them profess their faith in the teachings of the Catholic Church, which is what Nicholas did.

I suppose that the two most valuable clues for further research are the place of birth of Nicholas and his age. Since I’m not familiar with the geography of Saxony, I’ll leave it you to sort out the geography.

Dave

I, the undersigned administrator in Wittring, do thus attest that Nicholas Henry Schilling, born in Ritter Orthansen(?) in the province of Thiering in Saxony, thirty-nine years of age, publicly abjured himself of the Lutheran heresy which he had hitherto professed, and also at the same time accepted the opposite Catholic faith in the parish church of Gros(?) Riderking(?) there from the Rev. Sir Gros(or Grof), pastor in the same place and was absolved of heresy by the arch-priest/arch-presbyter* on the 19th day of February in the year 1741 before us agreed and attested in the presence of the said Sir Gros(or Grof) and the undersigned witnesses and I attest that furthermore the above named Nicholas Schilling himself entered into the Roman and Catholic Faith on his part with a sincere spirit/soul. In firm belief of which sign with the undersigned witnesses. The signature of the administrator and the signatures of the two witnesses follow. (The end of the entry. The birth and baptism record of an infant born on 9 March 1741 follows.)

Note: an arch-priest/arch-presbyter was a priest who had supervisory duties over a number of parishes. The word presbyter was imported into Latin from Greek. The Greek meaning is “elder”, a term which was applied to priests in the early Christian Faith. The Classical Latin term was sacerdos.

a4u2fear

Joined: 25 Oct 2019
Replies: 230
Location: NY/USA
Back to top

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:58 am Post subject:

Thanks Dave for the confirmation and wealth of information. This is the first of its kind that I have seen and it is very cool information.

I found the town is Riethnordhausen and parish Großrudestedt in Saxony on familysearch.

Our local history centers are opening soon in NY so I hope to get there soon. Have a great weekend.

EANWhitson
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Replies: 370

Back to top

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:52 pm Post subject: Cetkowski record

Hi!

I would like a translation of this 1758 marriage record from Plonne for Nicolaus/Mikołaj Cętkowski and Apolonia Chlebowska. I see the names Thomas Chlebowski and Andreas Cętkowski mentioned. Wondering if they are the fathers or just witnesses.

Thanks.

Cetkowski, Mikolaj m. 1758.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

343.88 KB

Viewed:

0 Time(s)

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Cetkowski record

EANWhitson wrote:

Hi,

The record names Tomasz Chlebowski & Andrzej Cetkowski as witnesses to the marriage but does not specify any blood relationship between them and the bride and the groom. According to Catholic Church practice the witnesses (together with the priest) were present to hear the mutual consent of the bride and groom to the marriage. The bride & groom were and are the ministers of the Sacrament. Marriage was considered a contract which had two parts—the verbal expression of the acceptance of the contract on the part of the bride and the groom (the spoken marriage vows), which took place in the public forum and the subsequent completion/consummation of the contract which took place in the privacy of the marital bed. Besides acting as one of the official witnesses, the priest was also there to bless the marriage in the name of the Church. To be valid both the expression of the freely given consent and the subsequent consummation of the contract were necessary. The function of the witnesses was to hear the freely given consent and to be able to testify to it should the validity of the marriage ever be questioned. The two parts of a valid marriage contract were known as “ratum et consummatum”—a marriage contract which had been ratified and consummated. The witnesses were required to be trustworthy individuals who were able to hear and understand the consent of the bride & groom. Any other information in the record about the witnesses was optional. In this entry the priest did not include any other details about the witnesses.

I hope this helps your research.

Dave

Here is the translation: Top: 1758. Left margin: #20; 31 January
Body of Entry: After the three banns had been proclaimed in the parish church of Płonne and since no impediment had been detected, I, who (is named) above, confirmed and blessed the marriage between the wellborn* Mikołaj Cetkowski of Cetki and Apolonia Chlebowska, a maiden from S(z)czutowo, in the presence of the witnesses the wellborn* Tomasz Chlebowski of Ostrowite and Andrzej Cetkowski (and) Kaspar Tarcienski from S(z)czutowo.

Notes: *generosus/wellborn: the owner of at least one village.

EANWhitson
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Replies: 370

Back to top

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:08 am Post subject:

Many thanks for the explanation and the translation, Dave!

Kurt1322

Joined: 20 Sep 2017
Replies: 66
Location: Imperial, MO
Back to top

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:17 pm Post subject: Help With Occupation & Town

I would appreciate any help with the occupation and the town listed for Joseph Neustall in these birth records from Mosty Wielkie.

Thank you,

Kurt

1826-Francisca Neustall BC_Mosty Wielkie.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

806.29 KB

Viewed:

0 Time(s)

1825-Anna Neustall BC_Mosty Wielkie.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

603.27 KB

Viewed:

0 Time(s)

dnowicki
PO Top Contributor

Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2782
Location: Michigan City, Indiana
Back to top

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Help With Occupation & Town

Kurt1322 wrote:

I would appreciate any help with the occupation and the town listed for Joseph Neustall in these birth records from Mosty Wielkie.

Thank you,

Kurt

Hi Kurt,

Here is the transcribed & translated entry for the father in the record for Franciszka:
“miles gregarius Velitum Legionis Principis de Hohenzollern.” The translation is “an ordinary soldier of the Infantry of the Legion of the Prince of Hohenzollern.” The entry in the record of Anna is extremely similar: “miles gregarius C[aesareus] R[egius] Legionis Velitum Principis de Hohenzollern.” The translation is “an ordinary soldier of the Infantry of the Imperial Royal Legion of the Prince of Hohenzollern.”

No place of residence is included. A hint which would require further research would be to determine the location in or near Mosty Wielkie where the legion was stationed.

The Principality Hohenzollern could refer either to Hohenzollern-Hechingen or to Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, both of which were incorporated into the Kingdom of Prussia in 1850. The two principalities had been part of the Holy Roman Empire until its dissolution in 1806 when the became principalities of the German Confederation until 1850. It would appear that either the Prince of these places owed feudal service to the Hapsburg Empire or provided legions to the Empire as mercenaries . Further historical research would be required to determine the actual situation. Another possible clue may be found in the info regarding the parents of Elżbieta née Klob. Her father was a cooper/barrel maker in Mosty. Although the same individuals were sponsors aka godparents for both children I doubt that their place of residence would point you in the right direction as far as the place of birth of the two girls is concerned since they lived in two different locations in 1825 & 1826.

I suppose that the vocabulary used to describe the father’s occupation poses problems for young and innocent scholars who are attempting to read records such as these because the description of the occupation uses a lot more words than are ordinarily found in such records. Another probable difficulty is that the words used are 3rd Declension nouns. A difficulty some individuals encounter with 3rd Declension nouns is that the noun stem and hence the form of the various cases does not closely resemble the Nominative Singular form of the noun. In this entry miles does not present a problem since it is in the Nominative Singular. However, legionis is the Genitive Singular of the noun legio, which probably does not pose a major problem. The following two nouns may cause greater difficulties. Velitum is the Genitive Plural of veles, velitis (infantry) and principis is the Genitive Singular of princeps, principis (prince). But not to despair...the final exam is months away at the end of the semester so there is still time to sort out this stuff (Ha, ha).

I hope this helps, although it can answer only one of your questions.

Dave

PolishOrigins Forum