EANWhitsonPO Top Contributor
Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Replies: 370
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:13 pm
Post subject:
Thanks, Dave. I must not have changed the title under the picture to reflect who it was. And no, no luck in finding Christophe's death record.
Thank you for the explanation on the confirmation.
Jean Pierre, son of Christophe, was born in 1699.
Johann Peter, son of Sebastien, was born in 1711.
The confirmation record - I believe the year is 1719. I've attached a couple of other confirmation records I found from what seems to be the same year. I thought parents Jn. George Christman and Eva Pull were listed as parents, but after your explanation, it seems they were confirmed in this year as well. With your explanation, I am guessing the correct Strassel would be the son of Christophe.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:56 pm
Post subject:
Re: Indexes of marriages extracted from records of Walschbronn
Elzbieta,
Everything in each of the entries refers to the actual Latin record of the marriage. The 1715 entry for Jean Georges Christmann & Eve Pull would be a good example to use as a demonstration since the actual record has been posted and translated on page 17 of this section of the forum.
Entries in column 1 refer to information about the groom contained in the Latin text from which this part of the table was extracted: 1) name of the groom in Latin: Joannes Georgius Christman and 2) the groom's parents in the Latin text: Joannis Christman et Apolonia. The ----in the extract before the name of the mother of the groom indicates that the Latin text does not contain Apolonia's maiden name. The letters after the name of the groom refer to the village which in this case appears above the Latin text and is Walsbronn.
Entries in Column 2 refer to information about the bride contained in the Latin text from which this part of the table was extracted: 1) name of the bride in Latin: Eva Pull and 2) the bride's parents in the Latin text: Baltazaris Pull et Margaretae. Again, the ----in the extract before the name of the mother of the bride indicates that the Latin text does not contain her maiden name. In this example no village name appears after the name of the bride since no name appears in the Latin text.
Entries in the top section of Column 3 give the date of the wedding: 22.1.1715 which in the Latin text is: die 22 Januarii 1715
I believe that the bottom of the third column refers to the number of the entry in the parish marriage register rather than to a shelf storage location
One thing to notice about the entries is that what is contained in the entries on the two pages is not consistent between the two pages. On the Strassel page a + before the name of a parent indicates that the person was deceased at the time of the marriage. This also refers to a statement in the Latin text indicating that fact.
When an occupation appears in the index it simply indicates that the occupation is found in the Latin text. The Christmann page of the index does not indicate whether the parent or parents were deceased. In the example entry the groom's father was deceased as is indicated by the Latin "defuncti Joannis" and the groom's mother was a surviving widow as indicated in Latin as "relictae viduae ejus Apolonia".
Anyway, the entries in the extracted index are very useful as a guide to find the actual records but they do not contain anything which is not found in the Latin text of the actual record and sometimes they contain less information about the parties.
The prohibition against copying the text refers to copying the text and publishing it for commercial purposes but does not forbid making copies for personal or for research purposes. And finally, to add variety to listing dates...in America the more common order is month/day/year rather than the European format of day/month/year.
Hope this helps to clarify.
Dave
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EANWhitsonPO Top Contributor
Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Replies: 370
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:56 pm
Post subject:
| dnowicki wrote: |
Anyway, the entries in the extracted index are very useful as a guide to find the actual records but they do not contain anything which is not found in the Latin text of the actual record and sometimes they contain less information about the parties.
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And in my case, since some of those records seem not to have survived in the books I looked through, or perhaps were not photographed for some reason, they seem to be the only conclusive record I may have of the parents of a married couple (ex. Catherine Strassel and Jn. George Christmann - while I had birth records, there were soooooo many Joannes Georges and Anna Marie's, Marie Anna's, Anna Catherine's, etc. I had a good guess, but really wanted to see the proof).
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:50 pm
Post subject:
Re: 1719 Confirmation registers
Post 1: Latin heading: Register of those confirmed in the year 1719 from Walschbronn
Joannes Franciscus Christman = John Francis Christman
Eva Pull uxor Joannis Georgij Christman = Eve Pull, the wife of John George Christman (Only Eva and not John George was confirmed that year.)
Post 2: Waldhausen
Vendelinus Christman = Vendel Christman
Sebastianus Christman = Sebastian Christman
Apolonia Christman vidua = Apolonia Christman, widow (This must be the mother of John George who was married in 1715. A bit of variety in the ages of those being confirmed---Eve Pull in the previous page and here her mother-in-law. This is what makes it difficult or even impossible to say what was the usual age at which a person was confirmed. Makes you wonder whether Apolonia was the oldest confirmed that year or was there some one else older.)
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EANWhitsonPO Top Contributor
Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Replies: 370
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:56 pm
Post subject:
Wow, glad I put them up there. I wasn't sure if that was Apolonia, but I thought surely it couldn't be!! This is fascinating.
I will have to go through my translations again, but I wonder if the Christmann's started out as Catholics. I remember one translation of a marriage where you said it was a "remarriage" into the Catholic church. It meant that they were married in another church and so the marriage wasn't valid in the Catholic Church's eyes. Seeing that these folks were all confirmed, some at such a late age? I wonder if they were baptized into the Catholic Church at a late age and thus, confirmation later? Although, I've seen that happen all at once (just as you mentioned) when it is older people.
By the way, the only John Francis Christmann I have in records would be Eva Pull and Jn. George's one year old son.
Interestingly, this is something Elzbieta found in some of her research of the Christmann's: "All searches indicate a split (significant on each side) of Christmann between Catholics and Protestants."
So, perhaps these Christmann's were Catholic and their spouses became Catholic or these Christmann's started out Protestant and then became Catholic. Hard to know.
Last edited by EANWhitson on Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:07 pm
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1717 Birth & Baptism of John Jacob Sprentz
Ridelberg: 5 Septembris 1717 natus est et 8 baptizatus Joannes Jacobus filius legitimus Erasmi Sprentz et Annae Mariae conjugum. Susceptores fuerunt Joannes Jacobus Bonderinn ex Rimbaud(?) et Magdalena uxor Joannis Guilhelmi Herner ex Walsbron. Signum + patrini; Signum + matrinae
Ridelberg: John Jacob, the legitimate son of the marriage of Erasmus Sprentz and Anne Marie, was born on September 5, 1717 and was baptized on (September) 8. Those lifting him up were John Jacob Bonderin from Rimbaud(?) and Magdalena, the wife of John William Herner from Walschbronn. The mark + of the Godfather; The mark+ of the Godmother
Since it is now time to go out to shovel today's six inches of snow to add to the six feet which has fallen so far this winter, I'll leave the other two records for tomorrow. It will be better to look at the poor copy in the light of a new day.
Dave
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EANWhitsonPO Top Contributor
Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Replies: 370
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:08 pm
Post subject:
Dave, as requested, this is the bad copy, close up. Hopefully it helps. I don't know that it is much better.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:33 pm
Post subject:
1715 Marriage of John Erasmus Sprentz & Anne Marie Leuchnam
Ridelberg: 12 Februarij 1715 factis per tres dies dominicos diversos proclamationibus inter Joannem Erasmum Sprentz filium legitimum defunctorum honestorum Michaelis Sprentz et Margaretae conjugum ex Ridedlberg et puellam Annam Mariam Leuchnam filiam legitimam Nicolai Leuchnam et Joannae conjugum ex Breidenbad parochia de Lurweder(?) nullo obstante impedimento cum facultate R(everendo) Bernardo Merllem(?) in ecclesia nostra coram testibus subsignatis impertitus sum. Followed by: sig(num) + sponsi; sig(num) + sponsae; sig(num) + Nicolai Leichnam ex Breidenbach; several illegible signatures.
Translation: On February 12, 1715, after the banns had been announced on three separate Sundays and since no impediment stood in the way, I bestowed the nuptial blessing (on the union) between John Erasmus Sprentz, the legitimate son of the marriage of the late upright couple Michael Sprentz and Margaret from Reidelberg and the girl Anne Marie Leuchnam, the legitimate daughter of the marriage of Nicholas Leuchnam and Joanne from Breidenbad in the parish of Lurweder(?), with the permission of Rev. Bernard Merllem(?) [i.e. the pastor of the parish of the bride] in our church in the presence of the undersigned witnesses; The mark + of the groom; the mark + of the bride; the mark + of Nicholas Leuchnam; several illegible signatures.
Note: The reason the permission of the pastor of the parish of the bride is noted is that the pastor of the parish of the bride had the right by church law to celebrate the marriage. A marriage blessed by another priest without the pastor's permission would be valid (i.e. a genuine) marriage but would not be licit (i.e. legal according to church law).
Note 2: The priest's Latin was not always correct. Instead of using the First Person Perfect Indicative Passive form of the verb (impertitus sum) he should have used the Active Voice (impertivi). It appears that he was using a regular Fourth Conjugation verb as if it were a deponent verb.
Last edited by dnowicki on Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:04 pm
Post subject:
1715 Marriage of John(?) Martin Colscb(?) & Anne Marie Strassel
Liderscheid: Factis de more trinis proclamationibus Dominicis diversis inter honestum Joannem Martinem Colscb(?) filium legitimum Joannis Thomae Colscb(?) et Annae Mariae p.m. ex Kreppen(?) et puellam Annam Mariam filiam legitimam Christophori Strassel et Annae conjugum ex Liderscheid nullo obstante impedimento benedictionem nuptialem illis impertitus sum quinta die Februarij 1715 in facie ecclesiae et testium subsignatorum. (Followed by) signum + sponsi; signum + Mariae sponsae; signum + Christophori Strassel; illegible signatures.
Translation: Liderscheid: After the proclamations (of the banns) were made according to custom on three separate Sundays, and since no impediment stood in the way, I bestowed the nuptial blessing (upon the marriage) between the upright John Martin Colscb(?), the legitimate son of John Thomas Colscb(?) and the late Anne Marie from Kreppen(?) and the girl Anne Marie, the legitimate daughter of the marriage of Christopher Strassel and Anna from Liderscheid on the fifth day of February 1715 in the presence of the congregation and of the undersigned witnesses. (Followed by) the mark + of the groom; the mark + of the bride, Marie; the mark + of Christopher Strassel; illegible signatures.
Yesterday was the 299th wedding anniversary of Anne Marie and her husband.
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:45 am
Post subject:
Birth & Baptism of Maria Eva Sprentz
No matter what we tried with enlargements, sectional scans, etc. parts of the record (and important parts at that) are not readable because of the ink which bled through from the other side of the page but here is what I was able to read.
Latin text: Die vigesima tertia (illegible month) Anni millesimi septingentesimi (illegible words) nata est et vigesima quarta renata (illegible) Maria Eva Sprentz filia legitima Jacobi Sprentz et Margarethae (illegible maiden name) conjugum ex Ridelberg. Susceptores (illegible male sponsor) et Maria Eva (illegible surname) The remainder of the record is illegible except for the word subscripti. However this section is not crucial since it ordinarily deals with parties signing or making their mark attesting to the accuracy of the record. The legible portion of the record is sadly small, but here is the translation of what is legible.
Translation: On the twenty third day (of illegible month) of the year one thousand seven hundred (remainder of year is not legible) Maria Eva Sprentz, the legitimate daughter of the marriage of Jacob Sprentz and of Margaret (illegible maiden name) from Ridelberg, was born and was reborn (i.e. was baptized) on the twenty fourth. Those lifting her up (i.e. the sponsors) were (illegible male sponsor) and Maria Eva (the remainder of the document is not legible).
Sorry that I was unable to make out more of the document but the bleed through was just too bad. Perhaps someone with more computer knowledge would be able to eliminate or minimize the bleed through to reveal the covered text.
Dave
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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:42 am
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Please translate the death record for Agata Nyczak from the parish of Lublin.
Thank you.
Beth
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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:44 am
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Please translate the attached death record of Piotr Nyczak from the parish of Gluchowo.
Thanks.
Beth
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2783
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:34 pm
Post subject:
Beth,
Here are the translations of the death records from the parishes of Lublin and of Gluchowo. To view the translations click on "Download" at the right of the screen.
Dave
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Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:29 pm
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Dave
Thanks for the quick translations. Please translate the following records from the parish of Gluchowo when you have time. Thanks.
Beth
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EANWhitsonPO Top Contributor
Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Replies: 370
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Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:36 pm
Post subject:
Hi Dave!
The copy is poor. The film copied books from the 1700s and they were pretty faded. Since I didn't like the copy, I did my very best to copy what I could see written. I apologize for probably what will come across to you as a child writing Latin! Hopefully, you can figure out what I wrote down. Here goes. This is a birth record for Marianna Zapisek, my 3x great grandmother.
1787
Villa Prysmy
Anno die we (?) siepra Wem baptisim infanten namine Marianam. Petri et Brigiden Zapiskow legiti conjungi filia. Patrini feine Honorbus joannes Chycowski and Catharine Zarwadkis.
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