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cpkaway

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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:47 pm Post subject: Cause of death at birth

I am having trouble reading the cause of death in the attached birth record. This is what I can decipher:
Puer ex ????? natus

Link to original: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS9B-79BW-V?i=47 entry 181

Looking through Rudy's List of Archaic Medical Terms did not help.

I found several other entries with the same cause of death so have attached those to help with the handwriting.

Thank you
Chris

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dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation

TedMack wrote:

G'day Dave

Thanks for checking my translations. I have a few more from the same family, if you can check these when time permits please. There are a couple of words I couldn't make out.

Parish – Koło – 1801
#30 Bliznia Wies (left column)
Body of entry: on the 28th of April 1801 I Piotr Kujewski baptized an infant named Katarzyna Józefata daughter born of the legitimate marriage of the industrious Antoni Szmayda and his wife Małgorzata. Godparents industrious Tomasz Szurgot and noble Zofia Woyniczowna, all from Blizna.

Parish – Koło – 1803
#59 Bliznia Wies (left column)
Body of entry: on the 24th of July 1803 (?) (?) Antoni Kaszkowski (?) (?) baptized an infant named Maria Magdalena daughter born of the legitimate marriage of the industrious Antoni and Małgorzata Szmaydow (Szmayda). Godparents upright Sebastian Laskiewicz from Przedmieście and Marianna Wrzeszczowa from Nagórna.

Parish – Koło – 1806
#30 Bliznia Wies (left column) - Checked for female in right column.
Body of entry: on the 8th of May, Father Mikołaj Kulczycki (?) (?) baptized an infant named Zofia daughter born of the legitimate marriage of the industrious Antoni and Małgorzata Szmaydow (Szmayda). Godparents industrious Szymon Szperka and Barbara Kotkowska, all from Blizna.

Parish – Koło – 1807
#30 Bliznia Wies (left column) - Checked for female in right column.
Body of entry: on the 2nd of May, I Piotr Kujewski baptized an infant named Katarzyna daughter born of the legitimate marriage of the industrious Antoni and Małgorzata Szmaydow (Szmayda). Godparents industrious Joźef Soyka and Marianna Fabichowa.

Cheers
Ted

Hi Ted,

Koło – 1801 —All good.

Koło – 1803 —Missing words are just part of the priest’s title. The ones before his name are Admirabilis Reverendus/the Admirable Reverend and the words after his name are Administrator Kolosensis the administrator of Koło. The priesthood was the exclusive playground of nobility since in general they were the only ones who were literate and thus able to complete the Seminary courses. Since they were of noble descent they were really big on the idea of using their titles. The priesthood was not an equal opportunity occupation. The first evidence I have found of a bishop trying to level the playing field was the bishop of the diocese of Włocławek–Kalisz who at the end of the 19th century instructed the priests of his diocese to encourage young men who are not Nobles to consider the occupation and he instructed the priests to give them the opportunities necessary for them to be educated sufficiently to attain that goal. I came upon that information purely by accident. Family Search has an unindexed collection which is described as having lists of parishioners from Włocławek. Since many of my ancestors were from that area I thought it was worth checking out. As it turns out the description was erroneous. The collection actually includes letters written by the bishop. Those letters are in Latin when they are addressed strictly to the clergy and in Polish when they were intended to be read to the congregation during Sunday mass and in Russian when they deal with state issues. The list of parishioners is found in the Latin letters and are actually the names of the priests who were scheduled to make a spiritual retreat. They were divided into groups so that the parishes would always have priests available to care for the needs of the parishioners. As I scan through the letters I did find interesting background information. That was all long ago and far away when I had the patience to read through such documents.

Everything else is all good.

Koło – 1806—The missing words are Ordus Minorum the order of Friar’s Minor. The parish priest was a Franciscan. Another bit of trivia— the fact that he was a member of a religious order explains why he is called Pater/Father. Religious priests in Poland were addressed as Ojciec/Father whereas the secular/diocesan clerics were addressed as Ksiądz/Priest.
Everything else is all good.

Koło – 1807 —All good.

You’re getting to be a real Pro. You probably deserve a raise and I would be happy to give you one based on my power and your need. You may have need but I have not the power. Such is life.

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Cause of death at birth

cpkaway wrote:

Hi Chris,

The word is exanimis/lifeless. The text reads puer exanimis natus/a boy born lifeless/ or in other words, stillborn. Since the baby was stillborn he received no name. Exanimis s a Third Declension adjective which was used as far back in the classical period as Golden Age Latin. Thus a person who listened to Cicero’s orations against Cataline would have been familiar with the word.

There are two major groups of Latin adjectives—First and Second Declension adjectives which use the endings of the First Declension for the feminine forms and those of the Second Declension for the masculine and neuter forms and Third Declension adjectives which, obviously employ Third Declension endings.

The phrase “puer exanimis natus” Is simply one of several expressions used to convey the idea that a child was stillborn and that is probably the reason that the word did not appear in Rudy’s List. Rudy’s List is certainly a very valuable tool but its primary purpose is not to give handwritten examples of entries but rather to put archaic causes of death into more modern terms.

There are no perfect dictionaries or word lists where one can find every Latin word used in genealogy records. There are many reasons why this is so, not the least of which is the tremendous variability of Latin words used in records during the long history of Latin as a dead language. This variability was enhanced by the sheer number of words found in records from the various countries where Latin was used.

The phrase you asked about is a good example of why a reliable dictionary of classical Latin is helpful in doing genealogy research. Since most individuals interested in genealogy do not own hard copies of Latin dictionaries I thought that it would be helpful to post links to two well-respected Latin dictionaries which are in the public domain and have been digitized. Those which I would recommend are the dictionary of Lewis and Short and Cassell’s Latin dictionary. Lewis and shorts dictionary can be downloaded as a PDF but Cassell’s cannot and therefore must be viewed online. Anyway here are the links: https://archive.org/details/cassellslatindic00marc/page/n7/mode/2up and https://ia802906.us.archive.org/2/items/LewisAndShortANewLatinDictionary/lewisandshort.pdf

Wishing you success with your research,

Dave

cpkaway

Joined: 21 Jan 2024
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Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Cause of death at birth

dnowicki wrote:

Hi Dave,

Thank you for deciphering the text, and taking the time to give an interesting and detailed explanation.

Thank you also for the two links to Latin dictionaries, which, I hope, will reduce my need to ask as many questions.

Best regards
Chris

TedMack

Joined: 12 Jun 2020
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:20 am Post subject: Latin Record Translation

G'day Dave

Thanks for checking those translations - I think I deserve an ice cream for the last efforts. The next ones from the same parish for the same family are below if you check these when time permits please. The death record was a Eureka moment as it was the record for my GGGGrandfather, a record I'd been searching for over 12 months. Found it in the Latin records as it appears it was missed when being copied as a Polish record (the records are out of date order in the Latin records and it appears that as the record before his was for a death date of the 9th May his was overlooked when they were copied).

The marriage record (over 2 pages) gave me some grief as I couldn't for the life of me work out some of the scribes writing and it appears there maybe some doubling up of the terminology? Or it could just be me?

Here are my attempts:

Par. Koło - 1812
Bliznia Wies (left column) - Checked for male citizen in right column – as opposed to Military death.
Body of entry: In the year of our Lord one thousand, eight hundred and twelve on 8th May died industrious (peasant) Antoni Szmayda in his fifties (exact age unknown) fortified with all the Sacraments (the Last Rites) and was buried in the cemetery. S. Laurentium

Par. Koło – 1825
Left Colum: Suburbzico (now known as Przedmieście) Right Columns: first two columns checked – they relate to male and female citizens, while the next two relate to male and female Military.
Body of entry: In the year of our Lord 1825 on the twenty first day of August after three announcements had been made and before the people gathered as the divine congregation the same as mentioned above performed marriage contracted between Jan Paprocki (???) bachelor and Magdelena Szmayda (???) maiden. Church blessings before witnesses being present Grzegorz Morawski Joanna Rusman the worthy and faithful.

Cheers
Ted

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who

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Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 4:59 am Post subject:

Hello!

I got the latin transcription of a record of the baptism of an adult Jewish woman who converted to Roman Catholicism in 1778. This event took place in St. Leonard's Church at the Liw from the Liw Parish (Masovian Voivodeship). I assume this location because there are no other churches in this parish, meaning the baptism could only have occurred in that specific church.

However, I've noticed that at the beginning of each baptism record (not limited to this one), a different town from the parish is always mentioned. I believe this detail is related to the individual's connection to that place, such as their birthplace, residence, etc.

Given this pattern, should I infer that the person mentioned in the record had a significant relationship with the town stated at the beginning of the record based on your experience?

Thanks!!

cpkaway

Joined: 21 Jan 2024
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 9:01 pm Post subject: 1903 Przemysl marriage record

Hello Dave or ?

I would appreciate help with parts of this marriage record.
link entry 61:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/skan/-/skan/8d333a534fa520e31d014dc10a9bc529bf3453747815d1810f72686b66dabad3

1. The occupation praefect[us] fabr[um]
Cassell’s Latin dictionary defines it as "commander of the engineers" which, I assume, we would call "chief engineer"?

2. The marriage details
Praemissis tribus bannis diebus: 18/10 25/10 et 1/11 [1]903 obtenta licentia mib. a c[aesari] r[egii] Consilioscholar. distr de dtto Dobromil 25/9 [1]903 N. 1198 – Matrimonio huic rite contr[acto] benedicit vi Delegationis.

a) mib. What is this abbreviation? I don't think the abbreviation is mil. (militaris) because the groom does not appear to be in the army.
b) Consilioscholar. The combination of "councilor" and "scholar" is what kind of occupation?

Thank you
Chris

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dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1903 Przemysl marriage record

cpkaway wrote:

Hi Chris,

The suggestion of using a Classical Latin dictionary as a research aid only works sometimes and for some words. Remember that Latin although it was not a vernacular for well over a millennium still changed and developed and words did not always have the same meaning which they had in classical times. A dictionary like Cassell’s is useful for occupational words such as farmer (agricola), scribe (scriba), shepherd (ovilio), etc. However, it is useless for words which were part of that small subset of Austrian bureaucratic Latin for occupations connected to the state. It is also useless for abbreviations found in that small subset.

The marriage took place in 1903 and a mere 16 years later, following the Treaty of Versailles, to paraphrase Bob Dylan, “The Austrian Empire and it’s a bureaucratic Latin and abbreviations returned into sand”.

As a general note, one does not read a Latin dictionary in the same way that one would read an English dictionary. Latin dictionaries clarify the meaning of words through references to where the word is found in classical authors. Lewis and Short’s dictionary provides many more references than Cassell’s. Those references provide the context needed to better understand the meaning of a word.

Here follows the way to read the meaning of the word praefectus Has found in classical Latin.

1. The occupation praefect[us] fabr[um]
Cassell’s Latin dictionary defines it as "commander of the engineers" which, I assume, we would call "chief engineer"?

Cassel’s text: praefectus, a, um: participle from praeficio q(uod) v(ide) = cf.
praeficio, (prae)ficere, (prae)feci, (prae)fectum, to appoint as overseer/superintendent

M(asculine) of participle as substantive praefectus, i, m., overseer, superintendent
faber, fabri, m. craftsman/worker/artisan in metal, wood, etc.
praefectus (fabrum = Genitive Plural ; alternate Genitive Plural: fabrorum) = overseer/superintendent of craftsmen

Your choice of meaning as “of engineers” was military as was found in Caesar which makes the term specific to Julius Caesar’s Commentarii de Bello Gallico. and/or Commentarii de Bello Civili—Not a good way to understand how the word was being used in a document written two thousand years later in Galicia. Scrap that translation and the entire idea..

Consilioscholar(arum) “from the association/council of schools”. The text refers to the bride and not to the groom. The bride was a school teacher.

a) mib. What is this abbreviation? I don't think the abbreviation is mil. (militaris) because the groom does not appear to be in the army.
I read the abbreviation as matr. which stands for matrimonial. The phrase would read in English “The matrimonial license/permission having been obtained…” This makes the most sense in the context.

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 3:04 pm Post subject:

who wrote:

Hi,

In the case of infants the location named at the top is usually the place of birth. In the case of adult converts is usually the place of residence which may or may not be the place where the person was born. I hope this helps you.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation

TedMack wrote:

Hi Ted,

The death record turned out to be a bit rough on you basically because the Latin word order didn’t correspond to what one would expect in English word order. This is not an uncommon phenomenon since Latin was not dependent on word order but rather dependent on case endings for the text to make sense. English on the other hand is dependent on word order. In classical Latin it was quite common for a long sentence with several dependent clauses you have the verb of the main clause as the very last word in the text. Here’s a simple example of the difference between Latin and English as far as word order is concerned. A simple Latin sentence can read “Puellam pulchram puer vidit”. If one were to take those Latin words and put them into English while maintaining the Latin word order the sentence would read “Girl pretty boy saw.”—Not exactly sensible English. You put the words into good English order based on the Latin endings the sentence would read: “The boy saw the pretty girl.” Now the sentence makes sense in English it made sense and it’s in Latin in his original word order but not in English maintaining that same order but now putting the words in good English order based on the endings of the Latin words it suddenly makes sense. This is what was going on in the marriage record. The Latin word order didn’t fit the English word order. The main verb of the sentence (benedixit/he blessed) was found somewhere around the middle of the text.

Anyway, the corrections follow.

Don’t give up the ship. This rough patch was only temporary.

Dave

1812 Death of Antoni

50 years of age (annorum quinquaginta) from an unknown disease/illness—the age is exact—the disease/illness is what is unknown.
Word to be added all the sacraments of the Church (Ecclesiae(.
Ad S. Laurentiun = towards St. Laurence (Polish: św. Wawrzyniec). The The phrase is specifying the general location of his burial. Cemeteries often had statues or shrines or chapels and evidently the cemetery where he was buried had either a statue or shrine of Saint Lawrence and he was buried near that shrine or statue or chapel.
Everything else is fine.

Body of entry: In the year of our Lord 1825 on the twenty first day of August after three announcements had been made to the people gathered for the Divine Rites (ad divina congregato) i.e. for Mass) on Feast Days (diebus) the same as mentioned above blessed (benedixit) the marriage contracted between Jan Paprocki, 24 years of age (annorum vigintiquatuor), a bachelor, and Magdelena Szmayda 19 years of age (annorum novem decem), a maiden. The witnesses being present Grzegorz Morawski, Jan Rusman, and others worthy of trust. (To render this portion of the text in better English one could translate it as “in the presence of Grzegorz Morawski, Jan Rusman and other trustworthy witnesses.

cpkaway

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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: 1903 Przemysl marriage record

dnowicki wrote:

a) mib. What is this abbreviation? I don't think the abbreviation is mil. (militaris) because the groom does not appear to be in the army.
I read the abbreviation as matr. which stands for matrimonial. The phrase would read in English “The matrimonial license/permission having been obtained…” This makes the most sense in the context.
Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks again for your valuable assistance - it is much appreciated. This group is very lucky to have someone so knowledgeable and generous with their time to help.

I am not sure I agree with your reading of the abbreviation as matr. All the other "t"s have a cross through the letter. I also noticed that in the last column the scribe used the old method of writing a "u" - i,e. with an arc over the letter. Perhaps the abbreviation is nub.

I found the attached document (http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/56/1639/0/0/4/56_1639_0_0_4_0070.jpg) which has these marriage details:
Praemissis tribus bannis Domin[icis] VII et VIII p[ost] Pent[ecostes] et festo s[anctus] Michaëlis Arch[angelus] seu diebus 17, Septembris - accepta licentia nubendi a poctre pro minoremi sponsa, matrimonio huic rite contracto benedixit

Perhaps nub was the abbreviation for nubendi. I don't know the meaning of the bolded phrase, or if the word poctre is correct.

Your thoughts?

Best regards
Chris

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TedMack

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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 5:11 am Post subject: Latin Record Translation

G'day Dave

Still on a learning curve. I've changed it up a bit and moved parish to Kościelec (Kalisz). Still having trouble with some of the writing and abbreviations. Hopefully I'm a bit closer with these. If you can check when time permits please.

par. Kościelec (Kalisz) 1777 (not sure what the “mus” after the year represents?)
Mycielin
On the 19th January after the publication of banns over three continuous Sunday’s between parochial Masses and as no impediment detected, I as stated above put a marriage question to upright Andrzej Ławiński and Marianna Jozwowna both from Mycielin, bachelor and maiden, and by mutual verbal consent from the couple to marriage before witnesses present (?) [is that an abbr. of ‘generosus’?] Marcin Borucki, Jan Janicki, church organist and the others here gathered together, and blessed them by the rite of the Holy Mother Church.

par. Kościelec (Kalisz) 1797
Left margin: Mycielin on the 26 November 1797.
Body of Entry: The infant from the village of Mycielin of the male sex was baptised of the upright Andrzej Ławiński and borne of his wife Katarzyna on the 19th of the same month in the current year at 2 in the afternoon and was given two names Andrzej and Józef. Godparents well born Dariusz Łuczycki with well born Pani Ewa his wife.

par. Kościelec (Kalisz) 1795
Left margin: Mycielin, Marcin, Infant
Body of entry: In the year of our Lord 1795 on the 31st October an infant was buried in (?) (a structure?) in front of the Altar. ? Marcin age 2 and 11 months. Son of upright Andrzej Ławiński who died on the 30th, yesterday at 9 in the evening of smallpox.

par. Kościelec (Kalisz) 1796 - Disregard this one - it's a repeat!
Mycielin
Body of entry: In the year of the Lord 1796 on the 12th January Marianna Ławińska from the village of Mycielin, age 46, was buried in the cemetery. Fortified by the Sacraments of the Church and died at 8 in the morning from blistering fever.

Cheers
Ted[/b]

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megha879

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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 2:20 am Post subject:

Hello! Can I have some help with Line 156 - there's a blue mark. I'm trying to read/figure out what the parentes sections say? Their names should be Blasius Guzy and Maria Mazur, but I don't understand/can't read all of the other text.
Thanks so much!

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TedMack

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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:45 am Post subject: Latin Record Translation

megha879 wrote:

G'day

The parentes - parents (using the Polish names) are:

Błażej son of Jan Guzy and Maria Salata - farmers
Maria daughter of Sebastian Mazur and Maria Kijak - farmers

Cheers
Ted

dnowicki
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Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation

TedMack wrote:

Hi Ted,

All in all you did quite well with the marriage record considering that much of what was written in the entry you had not seen before. Some things to keep in mind— it is very important to watch the endings in order to know how the text hangs together. This is especially true when trying to determine the object of prepositions. A good example is the preposition inter which governs the accusative which in this text is the word solemnia. The preposition inter is frequently found as a prefix of English words like international, which, of course, means between nations or intercollegiate, meaning between colleges, etc.

Third declension nouns can be problematic since very often the nominative form does not resemble very closely the stem of the noun which is obtained by dropping the genitive ending. Without knowing the nominative form it becomes difficult to look up a word in the dictionary. The case in point is the Latin word for a vault which will be explained a bit later. More nouns belong to the third declension then to any of the other four Latin declensions. Over 45% of Latin nouns belong to the third declension.

Anyway it is time to fly since there is much to be done during the next few weeks. Seedlings need to be sown in the greenhouse. Income tax forms need to be completed since the taxman cometh on the Ides of April. And then of course there’s the usual prep for Easter—I am very fond of ham, kielbasa, eggs and homemade baked goods.

Comments about the translations follow.

Happy Easter!

Dave

par. Kościelec (Kalisz) 1777 (not sure what the “mus” after the year represents?)*
Mycielin
On the 19th January after the publication of banns over three continuous Sunday’s between parochial Masses and as no impediment detected, I as stated above put a marriage question to upright Andrzej Ławiński and Marianna Jozwowna both from Mycielin, bachelor and maiden, and by mutual verbal consent from the couple to marriage before witnesses present (?) [is that an abbr. of ‘generosus’?] Marcin Borucki, Jan Janicki, church organist and the others here gathered together, and blessed them by the rite of the Holy Mother Church.

“mus” Indicates how the Year would have appeared if it had been written in words rather than in Arabic numerals. In written form the year would have appeared as “millesimus septingentesimus septuagesimus septimus [annus, understood] one thousand seven hundred seventy seventh [year, understood]”
Die 19 Januarii —On the 19th day of January
Inter...Solemnia—“between the solemnities of the parish Mass” The preposition inter governs the accusative which in this case is Solemnia. It was customary to announce the banns during the only part of the Mass which was in the vernacular, namely the sermon, which acted as an interlude between the first (Liturgy of the Word) and the second (Liturgy of the Eucharist) part of the Mass, both of which were in Latin.
“interrogavi...I questioned the upright...and having had their (eorumque) mutual consent through words joined them in the present marriage. “De praesenti matrimonio” The present or actual marriage as opposed to de futuro mstrimonio, the solemn promise to marry in the future. This is a technical formula indicating that this was the actual marriage. The marriage rite had two parts—the ratification (the consent) expressed in words which was done publicly and the consummation of the marriage in the marital bed which was done privately. In Latin these two parts were called “ratum et consumatum” and both were required for a valid marriage. The witnesses were meant to be able to testify to the first part (ratum) that the parties had given their consent. For the second part (consumatum) the wedding party would usually lead the couple in a procession, often accompanied with music, to the marital home. The wedding party would then leave allowing the couple to make whoopee in privacy. Those two parts are necessary to make a marriage valid, although no one was supposed to be able to testify that they had seen the whoopee take place. The proof was really the grin on the faces of the new husband and wife.

par. Kościelec (Kalisz) 1797
Left margin: Mycielin on the 26 November 1797.
Body of Entry: The infant from the village of Mycielin of the male sex was baptised of the upright Andrzej Ławiński and borne of his wife Katarzyna on the 19th of the same month in the current year at 2 in the afternoon and was given two names Andrzej and Józef. Godparents well born Dariusz Łuczycki with well born Pani Ewa his wife.

All good.

par. Kościelec (Kalisz) 1795
Left margin: Mycielin, Marcin, Infant
Body of entry: In the year of our Lord 1795 on the 31st October an infant was buried in (?) (a structure?) in front of the Altar. ? Marcin age 2 and 11 months. Son of upright Andrzej Ławiński who died on the 30th, yesterday at 9 in the evening of smallpox.

Fornix, fornicis, sometimes masculine and other times neuter, vault. Most of the churches in that part of Poland especially wooden structures stood low to the grade. The substructure—the foundation—was usually constructed of brick and didn’t form what we would call a basement but often was divided into crypts (burial vaults) directly below the wooden floor of the superstructure (the church proper).Here is a link to images of the fornix (vault) found in an excavation of the site of the Church of St. Oswald, which had been burned by Nazis during WWII: https://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?p=54278#54278

par. Kościelec (Kalisz) 1796 - Disregard this one - it's a repeat! O.K. Gladly, that is no problem for me.
Mycielin
Body of entry: In the year of the Lord 1796 on the 12th January Marianna Ławińska from the village of Mycielin, age 46, was buried in the cemetery. Fortified by the Sacraments of the Church and died at 8 in the morning from blistering fever.

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