TedMack
Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Replies: 504
Location: Sydney, AustraliaBack to top |
Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2024 6:33 am
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| dnowicki wrote: | | TedMack wrote: | G'day Dave
Can you riddle me this one! I have 2 entries in Latin a page apart where the names and DOB differ. The Polish Civil Registration has the DOB as 27th January and the name as Jan only. Can you please review my translations as I presume one should go by the Civil Registration. I've included the record from above for the first translation to confirm the date. My translations follow:
Blizna Wiesz – In the year of the Lord 1825 on the same day as above (26th) of January, the most illustrious Reverend ? ? Dominik Marcin Szremowicz of the local parish baptised a male infant born the same day as above and was named Jan Chryzostom of legitimate spouses industrious Wojciech and Marianna Woszczyński. Godparents Roman(?) Zlotnicki and Małgorzata Luszkiewicz.
Blizna Wiesz – In the year of the Lord 1825 on 27th January Reverend Tomasz Zobolarczyk parish vicar of Koło baptised a male infant born the same day as above and was given the name Chryzostom of legitimate spouses industrious Wojciech and Marianna Woszczyński. Godparents (blank?)
Cheers
Ted |
Hi Ted,
Please post the Polish text of the civil registration and perhaps the threads of the riddle can be separated and the riddle resolved.
Thanks.
Dave |
Attached as requested.
Ted
PS. I've added a clearer image
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2843
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2024 1:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| TedMack wrote: | | dnowicki wrote: | | TedMack wrote: | G'day Dave
Can you riddle me this one! I have 2 entries in Latin a page apart where the names and DOB differ. The Polish Civil Registration has the DOB as 27th January and the name as Jan only. Can you please review my translations as I presume one should go by the Civil Registration. I've included the record from above for the first translation to confirm the date. My translations follow:
Blizna Wiesz – In the year of the Lord 1825 on the same day as above (26th) of January, the most illustrious Reverend ? ? Dominik Marcin Szremowicz of the local parish baptised a male infant born the same day as above and was named Jan Chryzostom of legitimate spouses industrious Wojciech and Marianna Woszczyński. Godparents Roman(?) Zlotnicki and Małgorzata Luszkiewicz.
Blizna Wiesz – In the year of the Lord 1825 on 27th January Reverend Tomasz Zobolarczyk parish vicar of Koło baptised a male infant born the same day as above and was given the name Chryzostom of legitimate spouses industrious Wojciech and Marianna Woszczyński. Godparents (blank?)
Cheers
Ted |
Hi Ted,
Please post the Polish text of the civil registration and perhaps the threads of the riddle can be separated and the riddle resolved.
Thanks.
Dave |
Attached as requested.
Ted
PS. I've added a clearer image |
Hi Ted,
Thanks for attaching the civil copy.
The choices for the date of birth are 26th January or 27 January. I would go with 27 January but not because it appears in the civil registration. As we know, in Poland it was not the birthday of a person which was celebrated but rather the person’s name day or in other words the feast of the saint after whom the person was named. The child was named John/Jan and the two Latin entries specify which of the many Saints named John was his patron. There is no problem with the name in any of the records because it does not really differ. In the civil registration it just appears as Jan because the civil record was not interested in the child’s patron saint. However both of the Latin records state that his patron saint was John/Jan Chrysostom. In the Eastern Christian Church Saints John Chrysostom, Basil the Great, and Gregory Nazianzus are especially honored as the Three Holy Hierarchs and Ecumenical Teachers. In the Western Church John is honored as a Bishop & Doctor & Father of the Church. In both the east and the west he is considered one of the greatest and most influential Fathers of the Church of the Patristic Era. In Greek (the language he used in his writings and in public speaking as Bishop of Constantinople) his name was Ἰωάννης ὁ Χρυσόστομος. Ἰωάννης is John (cf. Latin Joannes). Greek, unlike Latin, has a definite article and ὁ is the Nominative Singular Masculine of the definite article and means “the”. Χρυσόστομος (Chrysostom) is a nickname rather that a surname per se and means “Golden mouthed”. It was applied to him because of his eloquence in public speaking. Putting all this together his name was John the Golden Mouthed. Since the feast day of John Chrysostom in Poland falls on January 27th that was the Saint after whom he was named and thus his name day. The Latin records are designed to make that clear.
The bottom line is it probably would not have mattered to Jan or to his contemporaries whether he was born on January 26th or January 27th. The important thing was that his name day was January 27th..
Corrections and additions for the translations appear in uppercase letters. The translations together with some comments/notes follow.
Now that you’re a master of Latin perhaps you’d like to expand your horizons to include Classical Greek. (Ha, Ha)
Dave
Blizna Wiesz*– In the year of the Lord 1825 on the same day as above (26th) of January, the most illustrious Reverend (Dominus) PAN** Dominik Marcin Szremowicz of the local parish baptised a male infant born the same day as above and was named Jan Chryzostom of legitimate spouses industrious Wojciech and Marianna Woszczyński. Godparents ROMUALD*** Zlotnicki and Małgorzata Luszkiewicz.
Blizna Wiesz*– In the year of the Lord 1825 on 27th January Reverend Tomasz Zobolarczyk parish vicar of Koło baptised a male infant born the same day as above and was given the name Chryzostom of legitimate spouses industrious Wojciech and Marianna Woszczyński. Godparents (blank)
Notes: * The correct spelling for the word for village in Polish is wieś. Wiesz is the 2nd Person Singular Present Indicative Active of the verb wiedzieć (to know) and means “you (singular) know”.
**The Latin Text reads “Dominus” & in this context means “Pan”. Traditionally the priesthood in Poland was the domain of the szlachta. Peasants didn’t qualify since generally they were illiterate.It definitely was not an equal opportunity occupation.
***The Latin word is Romualdus (Romuald in both Polish and English). The name undoubtedly does not qualify for a place on the list of the top 500 boys names in the world. It is probably most commonly found in Italy and in France and even there it’s not at the top of the list.
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TedMack
Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Replies: 504
Location: Sydney, AustraliaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2024 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: Latin Record Translation
| dnowicki wrote: |
Hi Ted,
Thanks for attaching the civil copy.
The choices for the date of birth are 26th January or 27 January. I would go with 27 January but not because it appears in the civil registration. As we know, in Poland it was not the birthday of a person which was celebrated but rather the person’s name day or in other words the feast of the saint after whom the person was named. The child was named John/Jan and the two Latin entries specify which of the many Saints named John was his patron. There is no problem with the name in any of the records because it does not really differ. In the civil registration it just appears as Jan because the civil record was not interested in the child’s patron saint. However both of the Latin records state that his patron saint was John/Jan Chrysostom. In the Eastern Christian Church Saints John Chrysostom, Basil the Great, and Gregory Nazianzus are especially honored as the Three Holy Hierarchs and Ecumenical Teachers. In the Western Church John is honored as a Bishop & Doctor & Father of the Church. In both the east and the west he is considered one of the greatest and most influential Fathers of the Church of the Patristic Era. In Greek (the language he used in his writings and in public speaking as Bishop of Constantinople) his name was Ἰωάννης ὁ Χρυσόστομος. Ἰωάννης is John (cf. Latin Joannes). Greek, unlike Latin, has a definite article and ὁ is the Nominative Singular Masculine of the definite article and means “the”. Χρυσόστομος (Chrysostom) is a nickname rather that a surname per se and means “Golden mouthed”. It was applied to him because of his eloquence in public speaking. Putting all this together his name was John the Golden Mouthed. Since the feast day of John Chrysostom in Poland falls on January 27th that was the Saint after whom he was named and thus his name day. The Latin records are designed to make that clear.
The bottom line is it probably would not have mattered to Jan or to his contemporaries whether he was born on January 26th or January 27th. The important thing was that his name day was January 27th..
Corrections and additions for the translations appear in uppercase letters. The translations together with some comments/notes follow.
Now that you’re a master of Latin perhaps you’d like to expand your horizons to include Classical Greek. (Ha, Ha)
Dave
Blizna Wiesz*– In the year of the Lord 1825 on the same day as above (26th) of January, the most illustrious Reverend (Dominus) PAN** Dominik Marcin Szremowicz of the local parish baptised a male infant born the same day as above and was named Jan Chryzostom of legitimate spouses industrious Wojciech and Marianna Woszczyński. Godparents ROMUALD*** Zlotnicki and Małgorzata Luszkiewicz.
Blizna Wiesz*– In the year of the Lord 1825 on 27th January Reverend Tomasz Zobolarczyk parish vicar of Koło baptised a male infant born the same day as above and was given the name Chryzostom of legitimate spouses industrious Wojciech and Marianna Woszczyński. Godparents (blank)
Notes: * The correct spelling for the word for village in Polish is wieś. Wiesz is the 2nd Person Singular Present Indicative Active of the verb wiedzieć (to know) and means “you (singular) know”.
**The Latin Text reads “Dominus” & in this context means “Pan”. Traditionally the priesthood in Poland was the domain of the szlachta. Peasants didn’t qualify since generally they were illiterate.It definitely was not an equal opportunity occupation.
***The Latin word is Romualdus (Romuald in both Polish and English). The name undoubtedly does not qualify for a place on the list of the top 500 boys names in the world. It is probably most commonly found in Italy and in France and even there it’s not at the top of the list. |
Thanks Dave, that all makes a lot of sense (not like Greek to me). I should have known (but did forget) about the old 'Name Days' that would have solved the riddle. Chalk one up to Batman.
I have another record which is a straightforward short marriage record that I can decipher so I won't bother you with that one.
Til next time.
Cheers
Ted
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2843
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2024 10:35 am
Post subject: Re: Antoni Zoltek death translation
Hi Andrea,
The translation follows. I hope that it helps you.
Dave
Translation:
Col. 1: N(ume)rus Serialis = Number in order:b 89
Col. 2: Top: Year: 1901
Col. 2a: Dies et Mensis obitus = Day and Month of death: May 20
Col. 2b: Dies et Mensis sepulturae = Day and Month of burial: May 22
Col. 3: N(ume)rus domus obitus = House Number of the death: ?
Col. 4: Nomen, cognomen et conditio mortui = The first and the surname and the condition/ status/occupation of the deceased: Antoni Zoltek, a widower, a day laborer from Lawada
Col. 5: Religio = Religion
Col. 5a: Catholica = Catholic: Checked
Col. 5b: Aut alia = Or another: Blank
Col. 6: Sexus = Sex/Gender
Col. 6a: Masculini = Male: Checked
Col. 6b: Fominini = Female: Blank
Col. 7: Dies Vitae = Days of Life (i.e. age): 66 years
Col. 8: Morbus et qualitas mortis = Disease/Illness and type of death: Bronchial Emphysema
Col. 9: ADNOTATIO Qui confessionis capatium et cur SS non provisi Nrus et datum schedae revisionis aut obductionis medicae etcetera = NOTATION Those who are capable of confessinng and why the Most Holy Sacraments were not provided. The Number and date of the certificate (literally: sheet) of review or medical attendance etc.: The Most Holy Sacraments* were provided.
Notation in Cols. 4-8: Josephus/Józef (or the abbreviation Jo. could stand for Joannes/Jan) Urbanek, the assistant priest, buried (him).
Note: *The Most Holy Sacraments = Penance/Confession, Viaticum/Communion, & Extreme Unction (Now called Anointing of the Sick. The three taken together were commonly known as “The Last Rites”.
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2024 7:01 pm
Post subject:
Thank you Dave! That is alot of help.
Do you know where Lawada is? I can't seem to find it on a map.
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BarbOsloPO Top Contributor
Joined: 19 Nov 2022
Replies: 1130
Location: NorwayBack to top |
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2843
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2024 1:09 am
Post subject:
| andreazoltek wrote: | Thank you Dave! That is alot of help.
Do you know where Lawada is? I can't seem to find it on a map. |
Andrea,
When I first read the record I debated whether the first letter of the place name was “L” or “Z” and at first I was leaning towards “Z” but since the scribe did not write the letter in the same way that he entered known letters “Z” I concluded that it seemed that the initial letter “L” rather than “Z”. My expertise is in the language not in forensic handwriting analysis so my decision was more like an educated guess rather than a certainty. Zawada does make more sense but Barb’s identification of the village based on proximity is far from being certain. I’ve said so many times that Latin entries should not and cannot be understood in a vacuum, that I bore myself due to what seems like constant repetition of the same old advice. In this record the entry needs to be considered in the context of the entries on both pages of the scan. The deaths which appear to be those of local yokels are those which have a house number/address. And in those instances the cause of death is often rather simple and generic like stillborn or weakness (debilitas). Individuals who came from farther afield do not appear with house numbers and often the cause of death is from a longer term medical condition. Of such individuals one (# 95) was from Tarnobrzeg (75km from Rzeszów) and another (#8 was from Kraków (161km from Rzeszów). In contemporary Poland you are over 100 locations with the name Zawada and many of them are and what was formerly Galicia. For entries 88 and 95 it is likely that the individuals arrived in Rzeszów via rail. A turn of the century map of Galicia shows the rail lines which existed at the time. Considering the high concentration of places named Zawada situated in what was Galicia to identify the village with any particular place is a rather too great unverifiable jump to a conclusion. Such jumps have been made frequently in the past but they do not lead to certitude. Among the most famous philosophical jumps are those found in the Five Ways of Thomas Aquinas in which he philosophically attempts to demonstrate the existence of God. Two easy to understand examples are the arguments from causality and the argument from motion. Aquinas AKA the Angelic doctor argues that an infinite series of caused causes is impossible and so there must be an "uncaused" cause or a prime cause. In the argument from motion Aquinas precision similar manner to demonstrate through syllogisms that there must exist an Unmoved Mover since an infinite series of moved Movers is not possible. He then makes the major jump from an unmoved mover and an uncaused cause to the conclusion that the prime mover and the prime cause are “quod omnes dicunt Deum” (which all call God). He has not proven the existence of God but rather made a jump which believers accepted but had not the force to compel an unbeliever to believe. In a similar fashion given the plethora of possible locations the identification of Zawada with an individual village is a jump which, while it is a possibility, is not compelling. I would recommend not betting the farm on that particular village being the one where Antoni lived.
On a more general note...Why are these records in Latin since that language had ceased to be the vernacular of any national group well over a millennium before the records were composed? The answer is found in what the authorities of the Austrian Empire were attempting to do by means of these records. The Austrian Empire was composed of diverse ethnic groups which did not share a common language. The Habsburg rulers of the empire were Catholics and decided to use Latin, the language employed by the Roman Catholic Church, as the common language for vital records of the empire. Essentially it was no one’s language but everyone’s language at the same time. Of course the content of the records was determined by the rulers for their own purposes which had nothing to do with either religion or certainly not with genealogy. This was not the first time that Latin was used as a common language to facilitate interaction between groups which did not share a vernacular language. One of the most famous instances is found in the rise of the universities in 13th Century Europe. Latin became the language of scholarship and remained so until well into the 18th Century. It was also the common language employed in diplomacy and on a less serious note was the language university students used to communicate with each other for fun outside of the lecture hall. Thus we find Latin being the language used for drinking songs, love poetry, stories etc.
In short when one reads these Latin records for genealogical purposes it is important to understand the context of the record in order to mine it for everything it has to offer while not forcing it to be that which it is not.
Vale,
Dave
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BarbOsloPO Top Contributor
Joined: 19 Nov 2022
Replies: 1130
Location: NorwayBack to top |
Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2024 9:10 am
Post subject:
Hi Andrea and Dave,
I checked Antoni's marriage record (parish Pstrągowa, 1864). Scribe made a small mistake. It is Zawadka in the parish of Dobrzechow.
So Dave was right about the location. There are several places with the same name.
Barb
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2024 12:42 am
Post subject:
Would you please translate the two death notices, 65 and 68. Death notice 65 is for Walenty Wujko (=Wujek). Number 68 is his mother, Hedwigis Wujkowa? (=Wujek). Since they happened relatively close to one another, I was interested in whether the deaths were related. Thank you. wuness
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2843
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:34 am
Post subject:
| wuness wrote: | | Would you please translate the two death notices, 65 and 68. Death notice 65 is for Walenty Wujko (=Wujek). Number 68 is his mother, Hedwigis Wujkowa? (=Wujek). Since they happened relatively close to one another, I was interested in whether the deaths were related. Thank you. wuness |
Hi wuness,
It seems to me that the deaths are related. Jadwiga gave birth to a child at the end of January. The infant died and she died two months later of edema. Perhaps the edema was a postpartum complication. Perhaps it was a pre-existing condition which was aggravated by having given birth. Either way it would seem to be related to the birth of her child. Her age would have been an increased risk factor.
One of my paternal great grandmothers had given birth to 10 children without any problems. After she had turned 40 she gave birth to her eleventh child, who died soon after birth and she died four days later. I would say that her cause of death was one child too many.
The translations follow.
Dave
#65 Walenty
Far Left Col.: 4 #8 (4 seems to be the day and 8 the house Number
Body of Entry: #65 February
On the fourth day (of Feb.) an infant Walenty was buried; (he) died on the second (of Feb.) whose parents (were) Wojciech and Jadwiga Woyko, a tenant*; 6 days of age; born infirm/weak**.
Notes: *komornik was a landless peasant/a tenant. Here the word refers to Wojciech.
**infirmus: infirm/weak in general meant that the child failed to thrive, which was a common cause of infant deaths. The more common Latin term used is debelitas.
#68 Jadwiga
Aprilis
On the second day of April Jadwiga Wuykowa*, a tenant**, was buried; (she) ded on March 30; her surviving husband (was) Wojciech Wutek; cause of death*** (was) hydrops/dropsy****; (blank)***** years.
Right Col.: 2 is day of death and Nr. 8 seems to be the house number.
Notes: *The suffix -owa was an old feminine suffix used for a married woman;
-owna was used for an unmarried woman.
**komornica: feminine form of komornik
***c.m. = causa mortis/cause of death
****hydrops/dropsy: old term for edema in which there is a buildup of fluids in a bodily cavity.
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Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 2:26 pm
Post subject:
Dave: Thank you for the translation of the death notice of Jadwiga Wujek and her son. I have another pair of death notices involving the same family the following year. I was hoping you could solve a little mystery for me.
Your recent translation indicates Jadwiga died 30 March 1799. Adalbert then married Marianna Korcz 3 May 1799, a little over a month later.
In the following year, 1800, two more of Adalbert's children died, Gaspar Melchior and Sophia. The parents of the two children are listed as Adalbert Wujek and his new wife, Marianna. I have a birth notice for Gaspar Melchior that lists his birth date as 1797, which would make him the son of Jadwiga and the stepson of Marianna. My question involves the age of Sophia at her death. If Sophia died at birth, she could be the first child of Marianna (who was married just 9 months earlier). If she was older when she died, she would likely belong to Jadwiga.
However it turns out, Adalbert had a devastating year or two at the turn of the century, losing a wife and three children. Thank you. wuness
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2843
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:25 pm
Post subject:
| wuness wrote: | Dave: Thank you for the translation of the death notice of Jadwiga Wujek and her son. I have another pair of death notices involving the same family the following year. I was hoping you could solve a little mystery for me.
Your recent translation indicates Jadwiga died 30 March 1799. Adalbert then married Marianna Korcz 3 May 1799, a little over a month later.
In the following year, 1800, two more of Adalbert's children died, Gaspar Melchior and Sophia. The parents of the two children are listed as Adalbert Wujek and his new wife, Marianna. I have a birth notice for Gaspar Melchior that lists his birth date as 1797, which would make him the son of Jadwiga and the stepson of Marianna. My question involves the age of Sophia at her death. If Sophia died at birth, she could be the first child of Marianna (who was married just 9 months earlier). If she was older when she died, she would likely belong to Jadwiga.
However it turns out, Adalbert had a devastating year or two at the turn of the century, losing a wife and three children. Thank you. wuness |
Wuness,
Sophia was the daughter of Wojciech & Jadwiga. She would have been born in 1798.
The translation follows.
Dave
Translation: Column 4: #145 Age: 2
Col. 5: Female; January; February; On the 14th day (of February) the infant Zofia was buried; she died on the 12th; whose parents were Wojciech and Maryanna Wuiek, a tenant; cause of death: the suffocating cough*.
Col. 5: 4 (House #) 5**
Notes: *thussis suffocativa/suffocating cough: most likely a description of whooping cough which often causes pauses in breathing (apnea) which can be especially dangerous for infants.
**House #5: This was the house where Wojciech & Maryanna lived as tenants (komornicy). According to entry 146 the main residents of the house were Jakub & Leonora Kubis. Jakub had a position of responsibility as a steward (włodarz).
Note on the column heading:: age/aetas is written as ætas, a convention which indicates that the two consecutive vowels are a diphthong. In a diphthong two consecutive vowels form one syllable as opposed to each vowel being a separate syllable. Some examples of a diphthong in English words would be the nouns coin, chair, fear, pout, etc. When the entry was written the convention served as a pronunciation reminder. The importance for anyone reading the document now is simply to recognize the usual spelling of the word.
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2024 1:51 pm
Post subject:
Dave: Thank you for the translation of Sophia's cause of death. I neglected to ask about her brother Melchior's (left column) cause of death.
Would you go back to the death document I posted Sept. 23. It looks like "thussis anni" as Melchior's cause of death. Could that be interpreted as whooping cough also? Is the date of death March 26? Thank you. wuness
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2843
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2024 4:10 am
Post subject:
[quote="wuness"]Dave: Thank you for the translation of Sophia's cause of death. I neglected to ask about her brother Melchior's (left column) cause of death.
wuness,
Melchior’s (Polish: Melkjor) date of death is March 24. His date of burial is March 26. His cause of death is simply the generic “thussis” (cough). Anni refers to his age. The priest specified the cause of death by underlining the word or words used for the cause of death. Since these are records of Christian Burial rather than medical certificates of death the “cause of death” is often more a description of the obvious symptom or symptoms which resulted in death. “Cough” is generic enough to cover a multitude of illnesses which are manifested by a cough. Although it could refer to whooping cough it could also refer to a cough which is the result of another medical condition. In my opinion, it is safer to stick with the generic term “cough” rather than to search for a specific type of cough. The text only supports the generic term.
As I mentioned above, anni refers to his age. In the format the priest was using the entries for males (Mares) are in the far left major column and the entries for females (Feminae) are all in the far right major column. The ages for the males are found in the left column titled “ætas” and those of the females are in next “ætas” column. Melchior was one year old (+ or -). Anni is the Genitive Singular of annus. In other entries annorum is the Genitive Plural used for anyone older than one year. The Arabic number entered in the column for one resembles the lower case Greek letter π but is the convention the priest used for one. The proof is in the upper case 1 found at the top of the page for the year 1800.
I hope this answers your questions.
Dave
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