Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:52 pm
Post subject: Error
Anybody else getting this message when uploading an attachment. The file size is less than 1Mb. This seems more like a system error?
Was attempting to reply back to an earlier posting of mine in this thread and include a new attachment.
Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 100663296 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 18624 bytes) in /home/users/inpassa/public_html/forum/attach_mod/includes/functions_thumbs.php on line 185
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starshadowPO Top Contributor
Joined: 09 May 2013
Replies: 306
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:36 pm
Post subject:
I have a 1758 baptism record written in Latin, and the father's occupation is written as "Pilopaei". That's the best I can make out. Does anyone know what Pilopaei might mean? I can try to upload the image if necessary.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2841
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:27 pm
Post subject:
Starshadow,
If you would post the record with as much of the text on the page of the record as possible perhaps it would be possible to determine the father's occupation. The word as transcribed in the post does not correspond to any recognizable Classical or Medieval Latin word. I will do my best to translate what is written. Posting surrounding text provides examples of script which often clarify an individual word.
Dave
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starshadowPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:16 pm
Post subject:
Hi Dave,
Here is the scan of the 1757 baptism.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2841
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:06 pm
Post subject:
Starshadow,
I believe that the word you asked about is not an occupation but rather the surname of Jacob. I tried various combinations of the letters in the word which could admit of several possible readings (P or L; l or t) and no combination yields a recognizable Latin word. Just to be sure I consulted Lewis and Short's Classical Latin Dictionary, several Medieval word lists, dictionaries of ecclesiastical Latin and finally a lexicon of Latin as used in Poland and there was no word to be found which even remotely corresponded to the possible readings . Also, the Latin does not necessarily support the conclusion that Jacob was Salomea's father. The typewritten transcription (with completion of abbreviations in parentheses) follows:
3 Bap(tizavi) famulam Salomeam Sophiam infidelis Judei Jacobi P(L)il(t)odi de Wygoda L.F. (levantes ad fontem) Illustris et Adm(irabilis) Re(vere)ndus Mathias Drsezaw(?) curatus in Kamionka et Sophia Kulpina de Chomrzyska.
Translation:
3 I baptized Salomea Sofia/Sophia a servant of the unbelieving Jew Jacob (? however you read the following word which you originally asked about) from Wygoda; the sponsors (were) the Illustrious and Admirable Reverend Mathias/Maciej Drsezaw(?), the curate (pastor) in Kamionka and Sophia/Sofia Kulpina from Chomrzyska.
Salomea Sophia was a mature woman (adult) who was probably born Jewish with the birth name Salomea and took the name Sopia/Sofia to honor her female sponsor (Godmother). It is clear from the Latin that she was a servant in the household of Jacob. It is possible that she was his daughter, but if that was so we would expect to see her called "filiam" or daughter rather than "famulam" or servant. I am not sure of the spelling of the non-Latin names of individuals in the record.
I hope this clarifies the record for you.
Dave
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starshadowPO Top Contributor
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Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:02 pm
Post subject:
Thank you Dave.
This Jacob may have been my 7th-great-grandfather. So I want to understand who Jacob was, where he lived, and what his vocation was. Here are two follow up records, dated 1757 and 1758. They may provide additional clues. I understand most of what they say, except the "Pilopaei" part, or whatever that word or name is. It appears again in the 2nd record. But in the 3rd record, Jacob is a "cauponis" (innkeeper) in Nawojowa. I believe all 3 records refer to the same Jacob, but maybe they don't. Do you see any more clues?
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2841
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:06 pm
Post subject:
Starshadow,
I certainly understand your desire to learn as much as possible about your ancestors. Dates and occupations are important but in my view they are the springboard for wanting to know the more personal aspects of their lives. I was particularly happy to have found something beyond the facts about the life of a sixth great grandfather when I found an entry in the parish marriage register of lists of parishioners who became members of the Confraternity of St. Anne. My 6th great grandfather was received into the Confraternity in 1741 and included in the entry is the formula in Polish repeated by each new member and the ritual in Latin by which the priest received the new members. There is something special about knowing the exact words which he actually spoke---even though they are words he simply repeated. Anyway, that discovery was the impetus to learn more about the Confraternity.
I think that there certainly are links between the three records. Simply based upon the Latin I would guess that the first and the second were written by the same priest. It would help me to be able to explain the links I see if you would be kind enough to identify the parish from which those two originate. Obviously, the third is from the parish of Kamionka. If you would post that information, I will follow up with what I see as links and with a further explanation of the problematic word. I probably will not have a chance to enter the next post until Monday.
Thanks,
Dave
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2841
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:07 pm
Post subject: 1817 Death Record
dshizak,
I cropped the original image you sent and will try to upload it.
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2841
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:10 pm
Post subject:
dshizak,
Here is the translation as a PDF document.
Dave
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Translation of 1817 Death RecordCol.pdf |
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:08 am
Post subject:
Dave,
From a 1718 birth index I have taken the following information:
-rec # 41, on May 1st - Marcin Magrowski, son of Andrzej Magrowski and Anna.
this one is ok, everything matches.
-rec # 28, on Dec 10 - Marianna Magrowski, daughter of Anna.
At first, I thought Anna could be the same mother for both children (if the 2nd pregnancy took only 7 months).
I now have a copy of the record but I got confused: does the two 'X' on the left side refer to two different records? I read the Magrowski surname in both of them.
Gilberto
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2841
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:39 am
Post subject:
Gilberto,
I'm not sure that the Latin in the records you posted will resolve your doubts. There are a few things which don't make sense to me. You mentioned that you first found the information in an index for 1718. Was the index something posted online? If so, the numbers of the records don't make sense. If the baptism in record 41 took place in May the baptism in record 28 should not have taken place in December. The order seems to be reversed. If the scan is an image of the actual entry in the baptismal register then where did the record numbers and dates come from since that information is not found in the scan. These entries are typical of early entries which often lack detail. Some of the handwriting is difficult to determine and the Latin is not very good. Here is what I read in the records:
First Record: A(nn)o D(omi)ni ba(p)tizavi infantem nomine Martinum Andreae Opilionis (can't read the next word) et Magrowska coniugum. Patrini _____. In the year of Our Lord I baptized an infant by the name of Marcin/Martin (the son) of Andrzej the shepherd (unknown following word) and Magrowska married (legally) The sponsors (were) no names entered.
Second Record: Anno D(omi)ni ba(p)tizavi infantem Mariannam Magrowski et Annae (looks like he first wrote Annam and crossed out the m and wrote e above) Cop. legi(ti)morum. Patrini no...(Can't read letters) Walow......ski(?) et Badowska. In the year of Our Lord I baptized the infant Maryanna (the daughter of) Magrowski and Anna, legally married. The sponors (were) no.... Walow...ski and Badowska.
Some things which the first record does not prove: 1. Andrzej's surname: the record list him by his occupation with no surname; 2. The first name of his wife. She is listed as Magrowska and the Latin does not indicate whether that is her married name or her maiden name; 3. No date is give; and 4. No record number is listed.
Some things the second record does not prove: 1. The first name of the father; 2. The maiden name of the mother; 3. No date and 4. No record number.
Since the female sponsor is listed as Badowska with no first name, it tends to indicate that due to the relatively small number of parishioners the priest didn't feel it was necessary to include many details.
As to the two X marks: I would guess that the marks indicate that the records had been copied. In many records I've seen at some point there is a notation in the register stating that a copy was produced during the annual gathering of the priests of a deanery and I've seen entries with checks indicating that the record was copied. My opinion is only a guess based on two entries.
I don't know whether this clarifies anything for you but if you have any questions or information which would help to clarify the records (like where the index information came from) let me know and we can try to determine with greater certitude the identity of the individuals in the record.
Dave
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:36 am
Post subject:
| dnowicki wrote: | Gilberto,
I don't know whether this clarifies anything for you but if you have any questions or information which would help to clarify the records (like where the index information came from) let me know and we can try to determine with greater certitude the identity of the individuals in the record.
Dave |
Dave,
Thanks for your help. The index was taken from the LDS film 1.496.590. I cannot read a word on the top of the column, but the following are surely 'ksiag.. metryk....' , so it is likely that the numbers I have mentioned refer to the pages of the book and not the records themselves. And 41 before 28 may be explained if these records were in different books (four were listed on those indexes). The images were sent by a friend who rented the film 2.041.716. The images were larger than 2MB and I had to cut them in order to be posted here, but there are no number in front of each record.
Gilberto
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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:59 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto,
Just to clarify, numbers 21&41 were the page numbers not the records numbers when I viewed the film. The records seemed to be out of order in that part of the book. I'm not sure if it was filmed that way or put together that way. But, it was a little confusing. If you need me to review more let me know. I'll have the film for a while.
Michelle
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dnowickiPO Top Contributor
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Replies: 2841
Location: Michigan City, IndianaBack to top |
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:51 pm
Post subject:
Gilberto,
I looked at the LDS film notes for the two films you listed and saw that some of the items on the film are listed as "second copy" which makes me more confident that the Xs to the left of the text were marks used to keep track of which records had already been copied. As I mentioned, often a notation appears in the register stating something like "Productium in convocatione annuale." ("Produced during the annual convocation." Sometimes the dean would sign indicating that he viewed the entries and sometimes he did not sign. According to Catholic Church law, the duties of the dean and the way the deanery functioned was pretty much left up to the discretion of the bishop of the place. From what I've seen in the records from both the Russian and the German Partitions viewing the Sacramental Registers was a prime duty of the dean. Some other duties of the dean were to communicate decrees from the bishop's curia and to bless new church buildings. It is not clear whether the dean was authorized to celebrate the Sacrament of Confirmation in rural areas because I have yet to see a film which contains a Confirmation Register. Some film notes list Confirmations as an item of the film but this has always been an error. What the notes call Confirmations in actuality is a list of adults who were supposed to fulfill their Easter duty.
Anyway, since the parish priests spent a considerable amount of time copying registers during the annual meeting of the deanery it makes sense that they would check off the records they had already copied so that they would not duplicate or omit entries.
Wishing you success in your current research,
Dave
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Magroski49PO Top Contributor & Patron
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Replies: 1762
Location: Joao Pessoa - BrazilBack to top |
Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:23 am
Post subject:
Dave,
Does the attached record say Lucas and Catharina were a married couple?
Thank you.
Gilberto
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