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Latin records translations
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who



Joined: 12 Dec 2018
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:13 pm      Post subject:
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Thanks dnowicki! you are right, next time I will describe where and when the act happened!

I am curious about the "bishop" from Kiew. In your opinion and experience, Is this just a coincidence (this guy was just there and it was requested to act as godparent) or maybe there could some relationship with the couple (perhaps they were from Kiew)? I thought that the godparents were friends or family, so it is interesting that in this case, none of the godparents are family/friends "as usual".

dnowicki wrote:
who wrote:
This is a baptism document for Marianna zd Ciuk. I think it says something about a Cathedral... but I do not really understand it all. Thanks!


Hi,

The male sponsor aka godfather was a priest (actually a bishop since he is referred to as infulatus/mitered) and he is recorded as a canon of the Cathedral in Kijów (Kiew).

In the future if you post a Latin document for translation please provide whatever geographical information you know about both the parish and the town or village. Such information makes it much easier to get a handle on the geography and thus provide a better translation in a smaller amount of time without the need for research and/or guesswork.

Thank you.

Dave

Here is the translation of the certificate.

I, the undersigned, attest by the presents (i.e. by this certificate) that in the Baptismal Register is found the following:
Liw
In the year 1782 on the 9th day of April I, Tomasz Zbroż(Two illegible letters), pastor of the church of Liw, baptized an infant by the name of Maryanna, the daughter of the legitimate marriage of the renowned* Kazimierz and Katarzyna Ciuk. The sponsors (aka godparents) were the Most Reverend Teodor Jezienski(?), canon of the cathedral of Kijów (Kiew) and mitered** pastor of Liw with the honorable*** Maryanna Goyska, treasurer and bailiff of the land/area of Liw.

In testimony of which I sign below with my own hand near the seal of the church of Liw—given in the pastoral residence on the 15th day of the month of October in the year 1819.

Parish seal and the signature of the vicar of the parish of Liw.

Notes: *famatus/renowned: adjective used to describe a middleclass craftsman.
**infulatus/mitered: indicates a bishop or a so called mitered abbot. Most likely this priest was an auxilary bishop since his title does not indicate that he was the ordinary of the diocese.
***magnifica/honorable/Polish: wielmożna: title used for a member of szlachta who was a court official.
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:59 pm      Post subject:
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[quote="who"]Thanks dnowicki! you are right, next time I will describe where and when the act happened!

I am curious about the "bishop" from Kiew. In your opinion and experience, Is this just a coincidence (this guy was just there and it was requested to act as godparent) or maybe there could some relationship with the couple (perhaps they were from Kiew)? I thought that the godparents were friends or family, so it is interesting that in this case, none of the godparents are family/friends "as usual".

Hi,

The male sponsor aka godfather was a bishop who was also the pastor of the parish of Liw. He was also a canon of the Cathedral in Kijów (Kiev). I’m not sure what canons do but I do know that they were priests who held that position and they were usually attached to the cathedral of the diocese in some way. It seems that his main job was to be the pastor of the parish of Liw, which would explain how he knew the parents. It is true that the sponsors aka godparents were usually relatives or friends of the parents of the child, but there was no rule that said they had to be. Sometimes they were just people who were in the right place at the right time. The fact that they were members of the szlachta (nobles) and the parents were middle class craftspeople adds another question about the relationship between the parents and the godparents.

Dave
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bretrandb



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Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:11 am      Post subject: Help for a birth record of 1804
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Hi,

Thanks a lot Dave, that's very kind of you. You're right about the missing text but I do not know how to get a better copy of those two pages and whether that would be at all possible. I've just included here a better scan of the pages. Do you think you can make out some sense of the words we see? (for instance the 2 letters after "Josephus et Paulus")

I also included here the wedding certificate of Antoni and Johanna. I also have problems understanding it but that could shed light on the birth certificate...

Best Regards

Bertrand



antoni-johanna-wedding-record.jpg
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who



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Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:46 am      Post subject:
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[quote="dnowicki"]
who wrote:
Thanks dnowicki! you are right, next time I will describe where and when the act happened!

I am curious about the "bishop" from Kiew. In your opinion and experience, Is this just a coincidence (this guy was just there and it was requested to act as godparent) or maybe there could some relationship with the couple (perhaps they were from Kiew)? I thought that the godparents were friends or family, so it is interesting that in this case, none of the godparents are family/friends "as usual".

Hi,

The male sponsor aka godfather was a bishop who was also the pastor of the parish of Liw. He was also a canon of the Cathedral in Kijów (Kiev). I’m not sure what canons do but I do know that they were priests who held that position and they were usually attached to the cathedral of the diocese in some way. It seems that his main job was to be the pastor of the parish of Liw, which would explain how he knew the parents. It is true that the sponsors aka godparents were usually relatives or friends of the parents of the child, but there was no rule that said they had to be. Sometimes they were just people who were in the right place at the right time. The fact that they were members of the szlachta (nobles) and the parents were middle class craftspeople adds another question about the relationship between the parents and the godparents.

Dave


Thanks Dave! Interesting this act. I hope I will be able to retrieve another children baptism act to understand if there is any connection or it just as you say, they were in the right place at the right time! Smile
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:51 pm      Post subject: Re: Help for a birth record of 1804
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bretrandb wrote:
Hi,

Thanks a lot Dave, that's very kind of you. You're right about the missing text but I do not know how to get a better copy of those two pages and whether that would be at all possible. I've just included here a better scan of the pages. Do you think you can make out some sense of the words we see? (for instance the 2 letters after "Josephus et Paulus")

I also included here the wedding certificate of Antoni and Johanna. I also have problems understanding it but that could shed light on the birth certificate...

Best Regards

Bertrand


Hi Bertrand,

Both the birth & baptism record and the marriage record have the same type of problems. The most glaring problem is that the words and sentences on the two pages do not correspond to each other. The upside is that such records from that time and place follow one of several set forms of sentence structure and content. The other upside is that my maternal grandmother’s ancestors were from that general area and so I’m very familiar with the style and content of such records. (Her ancestors were from the parishes of Szubin, Słupy, and Brzyskorzystew—all just south of Nakło.) The standard formula sentences deal with legalities and conventions with personal information mixed in. I should be able to reconstruct most of the formulae but no the personal information. You will probably be better able to do that part since you have been doing the actual research. I’ll transcribe and then translate the text and list the problems I see.

Let us begin with the birth & baptism record. (Yes, I know what the letters after the name Paulus stand for and will explain as we go on.)
Here is the Latin text:
Left page: 1804 D(ie) 10 Julij hora 2da mane po(st) = 1804 on the 10th day of July at the second hour in the morning after (this is the only sentence which continues on the right page)
The second line: LC. Cath qui d(ie)19a ejus(dem) = This line is a repetition of words found in the second line of the right page.
The third line: et Anna Marianna = and Anna Maryanna (Makes no sense & I have no idea why it is here.
Right page:
Line 1: media nocte natus est infans ex Magnifico D(omi)no* Antonio = midnight an infant was born of the legitimate Catholic marriage of [this is the L.C.Cath. from line 2 ] of the honorable Pan* Antoni
Line 2: (Mag)nifica D(omi)na* Joanna de Zabinska L.C. Cath. qui d(ie) 19a ejus(dem) baptisatus = [and of] the honorable Pani* Joanna née Zabinska who (refers back to infans/infant) was baptized on the 19th day of the same [month]
Line 3: [missing words are: cui nomen imposui = to whom I gave the name] Josephus et Paulus. P(atrini**) f(uerunt) Magnificus D(omi)nus* Nicolaus = Józef and Paweł. The sponsors** were the honorable Pan* Mikołaj
Line 4: [Ma]gnifica D(omina* Josephata de Zabinska = [and] the honorable Pani Józefata Zabinska.
Notes: *Magnificus Dominus & Magnifica Domina/honorable Pan/Pani: titles given to nobles (szlachta) who were court officials. The Polish adjective is wielmożny, which can also be rendered in English as Esq. It is a bit clumsy to try to put this idea into contemporary English—especially as used in the USA.
**Patrini/sponsors are commonly referred to as godparents, although the correct term is sponsors.

To put the entry together in English...At 2AM on July 10, 1804 a child was born of the legitimate Catholic marriage of the honorable Pan Antoni [missing surname] [and of] the honorable Pani* Joanna née Zabinska, who was baptized on the 19th day of the same [month and to whom I gave the names] Józef and Paweł. The sponsors were the honorable Pan Mikołaj [missing surname] [and] the honorable Pani Józefata Zabinska.

Now the marriage record…
First Column: Place of residence of those joined in marriage: Nakło
Col. 2: Running count of marriages for the year: 4
Col.4: Single young man with a maiden: 1
Col. 12: The Year of Our Lord: 1800
The same difficulty exists as in the baptismal record—the text on the left & right pages are disconnected.
Here is a translation of the body of the entry:
On the 13th day of January, after the announcements of the banns had been made on three consecutive Sundays and since no canonical impediment had been detected, the Reverend Pan Rocewicz, pastor of Zabartowo, questioned the honorable [Pan Antoni] Jasinski, a single young man, and the honorable Panna Joanna [Zabinska], a maiden, and after having received their mutual consent solemnly joined them together in marriage in the presence of the witnesses the honorable Pan [missing give & surnames] [and] the honorable Pan Grabowski.
Final Col.: The ages of the newlyweds: The groom:24 years of age, the bride 19.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

Wishing you continued successful research,

Dave
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bretrandb



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Post Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:47 am      Post subject:
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A huge THANK YOU David, that's really informative and very helpful! It's nice to find people like you.
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:36 pm      Post subject: parents consent?
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Dave,

I do not need a translation, but I'm curious about the parents consent of the bride Mary in the attached marriage, the fourth marriage on the scan.

Did the parents give her their consent?

Also, do you have any leads on where I could find her birth record? It says she's from Debno, but I am unable to find those scans on familysearch.

thanks as always.



Adalbert Rosinski Mary Jaskiewicz (Thomas & Christina Drzwiecka) marriage film 7769362 img 966.jpg
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Adalbert Rosinksi Mary Jaskiewicz marriage Mogilno
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Adalbert Rosinski Mary Jaskiewicz (Thomas & Christina Drzwiecka) marriage film 7769362 img 966.jpg


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:27 pm      Post subject: Re: parents consent?
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a4u2fear wrote:
Dave,

I do not need a translation, but I'm curious about the parents consent of the bride Mary in the attached marriage, the fourth marriage on the scan.

Did the parents give her their consent?

Also, do you have any leads on where I could find her birth record? It says she's from Debno, but I am unable to find those scans on familysearch.

thanks as always.


Hi Andrew,

Both the parents of Maryanna Jaskiewicz and the parents of Wojciech Rosinski gave their consent for the marriage. The Latin record reads “Ambo cum consensu parentum” = “Both with the consent of (their) parents. The bride and the groom were both living with their respective parents prior to the wedding and thus were considered to be living under parental authority and were expected to have parental consent to marry even though in our view they would be considered to be emancipated from parental authority. The Latin reads “Ambo...sub potestate parentum existunt” = “Both...are living under the authority of (their) parents.”

It doesn’t look too good for finding her birth/baptism record. The only source for records from Mogilno appears to be the books on Family Search. They were filmed at the Archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno and, according to this link https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=5217 the years around the year of her birth are not found in those archives and are not housed in the parish or in any of the Polish National Archives. As far as I know the civil registrations housed there begin with the establishment of free standing civil registry offices in 1874. Prior to 1874 Catholic civil transcripts of parish records in the German Partition were kept by parish priests and those records are usually found in diocesan archives. The bottom line is that since the years you would need are not in the Archdiocesan archives of Gniezno the chances of finding the records you would need are almost nil.

But on the good news side...Here is the link to the 1800 marriage record of her parents https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMZ-B7ZJ-8?i=792&cat=736853 It is the top entry on the right page of the image. BTW Krystyna/Christina’s maiden name in the entry is Kwiatkowska.

Hoping that this helps,

Dave
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:31 am      Post subject: Re: parents consent?
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dnowicki wrote:
a4u2fear wrote:
Dave,

I do not need a translation, but I'm curious about the parents consent of the bride Mary in the attached marriage, the fourth marriage on the scan.

Did the parents give her their consent?

Also, do you have any leads on where I could find her birth record? It says she's from Debno, but I am unable to find those scans on familysearch.

thanks as always.


Hi Andrew,

Both the parents of Maryanna Jaskiewicz and the parents of Wojciech Rosinski gave their consent for the marriage. The Latin record reads “Ambo cum consensu parentum” = “Both with the consent of (their) parents. The bride and the groom were both living with their respective parents prior to the wedding and thus were considered to be living under parental authority and were expected to have parental consent to marry even though in our view they would be considered to be emancipated from parental authority. The Latin reads “Ambo...sub potestate parentum existunt” = “Both...are living under the authority of (their) parents.”

It doesn’t look too good for finding her birth/baptism record. The only source for records from Mogilno appears to be the books on Family Search. They were filmed at the Archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno and, according to this link https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=5217 the years around the year of her birth are not found in those archives and are not housed in the parish or in any of the Polish National Archives. As far as I know the civil registrations housed there begin with the establishment of free standing civil registry offices in 1874. Prior to 1874 Catholic civil transcripts of parish records in the German Partition were kept by parish priests and those records are usually found in diocesan archives. The bottom line is that since the years you would need are not in the Archdiocesan archives of Gniezno the chances of finding the records you would need are almost nil.

But on the good news side...Here is the link to the 1800 marriage record of her parents https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMZ-B7ZJ-8?i=792&cat=736853 It is the top entry on the right page of the image. BTW Krystyna/Christina’s maiden name in the entry is Kwiatkowska.

Hoping that this helps,

Dave


Thanks Dave, definitely helps, appreciate it. Onward and upward
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:14 pm      Post subject: baptism translation
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Hoping to get the bottom right baptism translated for Anastasia

Parents Thomas Podrybinska and Susanna (is possibly her last name shown?)

Thanks



Anastasia Podrybinska film 8022480 img 987.jpg
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Ostrowo baptism, (Roman Catholic parish register of baptisms for Ostrowo (Inowrocław), Bydgoszcz, Poland; formerly Ostrowo bei Amsee, Posen, Prussia, Germany. Text in Latin)
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Anastasia Podrybinska film 8022480 img 987.jpg


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:47 pm      Post subject: Re: baptism translation
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a4u2fear wrote:
Hoping to get the bottom right baptism translated for Anastasia

Parents Thomas Podrybinska and Susanna (is possibly her last name shown?)

Thanks


Hi Again,

Here is the translation of the B&B record.

Dave

Ostrowo

On the 17th day of April in the year 1814 I, Paschalny Bienkowski, vicar, baptized a child born on the 15th day of April at the hour of 9 in the evening of the legitimate marriage of the upright* Tomasz Podrybinski, a miller, and of Zuzanna née Balcer(?) to whom I gave the name(s) Anastazja and Katarzyna. The sponsors were the honorable** Panna Michalina ??binska, a maiden, and the Reverend Franciszek Getchkaw(?), pastor of Ostrowo.

Notes: *honestus/upright: adjective used to describe a peasant from a small town or village.
**Magnifica Domina/honorable Panna: title used to describe a court official, or in this case, the daughter of a court official.
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:57 pm      Post subject:
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Thanks Dave. This side of the family is driving me crazy! But it helps. Ha
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:05 pm      Post subject:
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Dave you said (in regards to my Debno records question):

"It doesn’t look too good for finding her birth/baptism record. The only source for records from Mogilno appears to be the books on Family Search. They were filmed at the Archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno and, according to this link https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=5217 the years around the year of her birth are not found in those archives and are not housed in the parish or in any of the Polish National Archives."

I looked further,
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/736853?availability=Family%20History%20Library
is mogilno parish records and I found births from Debno in the attached films (film 7769361 and 7769362)
Roman Catholic parish register of baptisms, marriages and deaths for Mogilno (Mogilno), Bydgoszcz, Poland; formerly Ostrowo bei Amsee, Posen, Prussia, Germany. Text in Latin. Includes records for Janikowo.

Still searching for her baptism, but it appears this might be available after all
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:44 pm      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
Dave you said (in regards to my Debno records question):

"It doesn’t look too good for finding her birth/baptism record. The only source for records from Mogilno appears to be the books on Family Search. They were filmed at the Archives of the Archdiocese of Gniezno and, according to this link https://parafie.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pr&pid=5217 the years around the year of her birth are not found in those archives and are not housed in the parish or in any of the Polish National Archives."

I looked further,
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/736853?availability=Family%20History%20Library
is mogilno parish records and I found births from Debno in the attached films (film 7769361 and 7769362)
Roman Catholic parish register of baptisms, marriages and deaths for Mogilno (Mogilno), Bydgoszcz, Poland; formerly Ostrowo bei Amsee, Posen, Prussia, Germany. Text in Latin. Includes records for Janikowo.

Still searching for her baptism, but it appears this might be available after all


Hi Andrew,

I looked at that page from Family Search before I wrote that things do not look good for finding the birth record of Maryanna Jaskiewicz. According to the film notes no birth/baptism records are listed for the years from 1786 to 1808. Her wedding took place on January 26, 1829 and that record states that she was 25 years of age at the time of the wedding which means that she would have been born in 1803 or 1804. This places her year of birth during the gap years for which there are no filmed birth records from the parish.
Unless there are errors in the film notes (which is always possible) the math just doesn’t hold any real hope of finding her birth on the films at Family Search. In my own personal research I’ve found a few errors in the description of film contents but usually those errors can be attributed to errors in understanding the Latin text of the filmed records. Here are some examples of what I mean. One film of records from the parish of Słupy lists bierzowanie (which itself is an incorrect spelling of what should be bierzmowanie, meaning Confirmations) in the film notes. The Latin title heading within the actual records filmed is “Confessio Paschalis” which means “Easter Confessions”. The pages listed the adults of the parish who were supposed to complete their “Easter Duty” (the obligation to make one’s confession and receive Communion at least once a year during the Easter season) recorded by village. The records have nothing to do with Confirmations but are actually quite valuable from a genealogical point of view since they act as a sort of census of adults by family group. Another example which comes to mind is a film which purports to contain a list of parishioners of the diocese of Włocławek. In reality the film only contains the official letters sent by the bishop of what at the time was the Diocese of Włocławek-Kalisz. From what I could see the erroneous claim of a listing of parishioners probably was the result of someone seeing letters sent by the bishop containing the names of the priests of the diocese whom he summoned to take part in what was a week long spiritual retreat. Since the priests were summoned in several groups I guess that whoever wrote the film description didn’t read the letters (which were long and were in Latin) and saw the lists of names and came up with the erroneous description of the contents of the film.

While it is possible that an error has occurred in the film notes for numbers 7769361 and 7769362, I don’t hold out much hope but I suppose that you’ll not know for sure unless you carefully examine the films. I guess that one can only have peace of mind after leaving no stone unturned no matter how heavy the stone is.

Sorry that I can’t be more upbeat and encouraging but that is how I see the situation.

Dave
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:33 am      Post subject:
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Hi Dave

I misled you with my last post and I apologize. While my original question was about Mary, I needed her document translated to find out the status of her parents.

However, the Jaskiewicz family births have eluded me. They appear to all be from Debno. While I am not specifically looking for Mary (~1804), I am looking for her sibling's family and kids who were born in the range of 1808-1820. I still haven't had luck finding them, but by browsing those mogilno films I did find a lot of baptisms in Debno included. Still, maybe I am looking for something that can't be found.
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