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Latin records translations
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:45 pm      Post subject: Re: Loose ends.
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GorliceRoots wrote:
Salve Magister,

These three questions are the last that I can think of with the current batch of records that I have. The attached .pdf deals with two of them. They are not all that difficult. One is a retread and/or comment. But 1 & 2 are related and might open another can of worms.

Q or comment 1. The attached .pdf contains (on p. 1) the promised priest survey of the 5 baptisms that I have sent. There is no doubt that sw. Marceli Zabicki was the pastor = head honcho. Two other coop's were there, too. Also, Zabicki has been confirmed completely independently as the parish priest. Thus, I agree that Dionysius = Dionizy was not the parish priest. The meaning of P.P. Ref. remains a mystery.

Q2. But... Also as promised I have attached on pages 2 and 3 examples of "redundant" Latin, as you see it. One from Budapest, one from France, and another from parts unknown, like "The Executioner" of professional wrestling fame. Parochus parochiae appears three times on page 3 of the .pdf. I even found "Copperator parochiae", shown on page 2. The assistant of the parish. Since parochia, parochiae, f. = parish, I see parochiae as a completely kosher Latin word in the genitive. Since parochus, parochi, m. = pastor, I see the phrase priest of the parish as correct. "Parochus" is fine by itself and was widely used, but so was parochus parochiae. I guess parochus had the understanding/implication/connotation of "The Big Cheese" and many felt no need to add of the parish.

3. The records that we have encountered have the surname "Wnarowski". I have many examples of the American version being "Wnorowski". I am a big fan of original records of course, but the surname Wnorowski has been around for a long time. It exists today. I have not seen Wnarowski as a common name. Do you think it is a legitimate difference that the Gorlice records have Wnarowski, whereas the American records (and MANY other Polish families) use Wnorowski? I am not debating if I have the correct family. That is beyond ALL doubt. How should I spell the surname, though??


Joe,

The definition of redundant is not needed, unnecessary, repetitive, superfluous. I have some good news to relive your concern that my opinion of parochus parochiae being redundant was too harsh. Let me state clearly for the record that in the pages you posted from Budapest and from France the combination of the two words is certainly not redundant. But, before you start to feel too good there is some very bad news—those documents do not involve a priest signing off on a sacramental record with his title. If you don’t mind my asking, how did you come upon those documents and why did you bother copying them? In an earlier post you mentioned that you had seen parochus parochiae in records from Ireland. I have a feeling that someone from the old sod might say that a wee bit of knowledge can lead you down the road to false conclusions. I have a feeling that you were concentrating so much on the words parochus parochiae that you missed out on what the documents were actually about. Otherwise you would not have used them to demonstrate your point. The document from Budapest is framed as a question and an answer. The question is which “parochus” has the right to bless the marriage of a widow who recently moved from the hypothetical parish A to the hypothetical parish B. So every time there is a reference to parochum parochiae or parochus parochiae those words are followed by either the letter A or the letter B. The combination of parochus and parochiae is legitimate and necessary since those words mean in one case “the pastor of parish A” and in the other case “the pastor of parish B”, thus specifying the parish of which the priest was pastor—a far cry from the generic Pastor of the Parish.

The document from France uses parochus parochiae in a similar fashion. The document is a list of priests with the name of the parish to which each is assigned. One which you highlighted reads John the Baptist Jacob/James Guillon, pastor of the parish of Coranée. Again, the usage is not redundant in that it specifies the name of the parish of which the priest was pastor.

On the other hand, it is still my opinion that to used the words “parochus parochiae” in a sacramental register fits the definition of redundant. Words such as parochus, parochiae, parochialis, parochianus all share the same root and have very similar meanings. The very word parochus implies parochia. After all, what would he be parochus of if not a parochia (sometimes also spelled parocia). Thus the phrase seems to me to be redundant. As the scholastic philosophers were wont to say, “Stat thesis”. I certainly do not wish to impose my opinion on anyone else so if you don’t think that the phrase is redundant, I’m cool with that.

A few final thoughts—cooperator parochiae is not redundant because cooperator is not an exclusively ecclesiastical term. That word was used in all sorts of secular situations so to specify that an individual was an assistant engineer, secretary, or whatever. Saying that a priest was an assistant of the parish is not exactly redundant but is hardly necessary either. There were many other Latin terms which were used to express the same idea as parochus does. Here are a few: vicarius, rector, curatus, and commendarius. Each has a slightly different shade of meaning but indicated that the individual was in charge.

Since you’ve already determined that the priest who opened up this Pandora’s box was not the pastor of the parish of Gorlice at any time from 1868 through 1877 the case is closed—the horse is definitely dead—end of story—Finis—that’s all, folks.

Re: baptisans—That is correct.

Re: Spelling of Wnorowski. It is your family & thus it is your call. If it were my family, I would stick with the spelling as found in the records from Gorlice. Unless you have proof that the individuals were literate while living in Gorlice, then the spelling most probably depended on how the priest wrote the surname and the family members would not have known how to spell it since they would not have been able to write. Spelling requires a certain amount of “book learning”.

In order to combine everything into one post…
Re: Earlier Today: If you are asking about the letters between Wygrzywalski and ojciec, I can’t see them clearly but can definitely say that they are not “po”. If you are asking about the words between “na to” and “podpisuje”, the clearer image makes the words legible. The section reads “...na to się po powyszych świadtków podpisuje: Michał Wygrzywalski...” (Note that the clearer image shows podpisuje rather than podpisuję.) The section translates: “…for this after the above witnesses signs: Michał Wygrzywalski...” Finally, the other formerly unclear words are “na śluby małzenskie” which translates: “for marriage vows”. It is amazing how much clearer a larger image makes letters when the old lamps are not what they once were. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Vale,

Dave
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GorliceRoots



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Post Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:55 am      Post subject: Musings
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1. I meant "po" where you placed it. I didn't notice the other missing words. Now it's even BETTER!! Thank you.

2.If I may defend against any charge of fastidiousness... Many things have come from the 2nd look with the clearer image. I'll cite two. First, your discovery of Sandec (my guess is New Sandec = Nowy Sącz) has given me a new place to look for records. Second, the priest's name Ruzycki… You mentioned that I had seen more names in the Gorlice register. My survey showed all of the priests that I have found. Here's the point: The ONLY place I found Ruzycki is in the marriage records.

Now, he is called an administrator. What does that mean? Was the administrator of greater authority than the parish priest? Key point to this Q: I don't know where Antoni was born. If "Ruzycki" was from another town, it might lead to info on where Anthony's family originated. Gorlice does not seem to be correct, but I am not sure on that either way. I'm not obsessed with the surname for the sake of the name itself. It doesn't matter if he was Fr. Smith, Fr. Ruzycki, or Fr. Fonzarelli, but it might matter WHERE he served. This could also be a dead end. I don't know.

3. P.P., etc... You wrote to me: "In an earlier post you mentioned that you had seen parochus parochiae in records from Ireland." Allow me to quote my posts to you:

A. p. 172, 23 Mar 9:48 PM: "As for the notation after the priest: P.P. Ref./Res. I get P.P. = parochus parochiae = “pastor of the parish”. But what is the Ref or Res.? ".

B. p. 173, 26 Mar 1:44 PM: "Previously you mentioned that "P. P. Ref." was a possible reference to a religious order. I have seen P.P. many times in Irish records, which I've always seen as parochus parochiae = “pastor of the parish”.".

C. p. 175, 31 mar 7:57 PM: " "Parochus" is fine by itself and was widely used, but so was parochus parochiae. I guess parochus had the understanding/implication/connotation of "The Big Cheese" and many felt no need to add of the parish.".

So... Explicitly, I stated I have seen P.P. - with no quotation marks. To be clear, I should have stated I have seen "P.P." - with quotation marks - many times in Irish records. To my memory, I have never seen "parochus parochiae" in Irish records. I then stated: "...which I've always seen as parochus parochiae = “pastor of the parish”.". Perhaps, that was unclear. By "I've always seen" I meant "...which I have always understood to be an abbreviation for parochus parochiae". From these points I hope that it is clear that I did not state explicitly, nor did I mean to imply, that I saw the explicit words "parochus parochiae" in Irish records. I can provide you with examples (and hundreds more) from the Dioceses of Galway (very near and dear to my heart), Kerry, Dromore, Cork and Ross, Dublin, and Derry of the abbreviation of "P.P.". These are from all parts of Ireland. I have attached two examples. Not only do they have "P.P.", but also they have "C.C."! I have included these because you stated: "There were many other Latin terms which were used to express the same idea as parochus does. Here are a few: vicarius, rector, curatus, and commendarius. Each has a slightly different shade of meaning but indicated that the individual was in charge.". Well... Not in Ireland. "C.C." was used for second fiddle. This link http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01022a.htm has abbreviations. Note: C.C. and P.P. in the second section. Both indicate these were/are(?) used primarily in Ireland. This link says C.C. = curatus, the Latin word from which curate derives. It also says P.P. = Parochus ("Parish Priest" — used mostly in Ireland). So... that last definition of P.P. from this link does not settle the issue. I believe that P.P. is clearly a two-word, Latin abbreviation in Irish records, indicating parochus parochiae. What then is C.C.? Is that a two-word, Latin abbreviation? Redundant or improperly applied or not, what did it abbreviate?? I don't know. The above is why I stated that I have seen P.P. in Irish records. The answer to your Q "how did you come upon those documents and why did you bother copying them?" is as follows: I went looking for examples of the use of "parochus parochiae" in church-y type things. In my search I was not beholden to the requirement that the words be found “in a sacramental register”. It is clear to me now that your opposition to the words "parochus parochiae" is its use in sacramental registers. To repeat, I had no examples in mind of the use in Ireland of "parochus parochiae". The examples in my mind were of "P.P.". In the survey of Irish records that I conducted to write this post, I did NOT come across any use of the two-word label "parochus parochiae" after the name of any priest.



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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:07 pm      Post subject: dates from records
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Dave

Looking for help figuring out the day and month of the attached records. Thanks again!



Martin Rojewski Cath Garazanka marriage 1789 8020511 img 335 (4th from bottom left).jpg
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What is the date of this marriage fourth from bottom left Polska Wies Klecko
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Martin Rojewski Cath Garazanka marriage 1789 8020511 img 335 (4th from bottom left).jpg



Andrew Rojewski birth 1792 polska wies film 8020511 img 298 (third from bottom left).jpg
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Andrew Rojewski birth 1792 polska wies film 8020511 img 298 (third from bottom left).jpg



Andrew Rojewski Catharina Marcinowna marriage 8020512 img 770.jpg
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What is date of this marriage third down. Polska Wies. Parisk Klecko
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:47 pm      Post subject: Re: dates from records
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a4u2fear wrote:
Dave

Looking for help figuring out the day and month of the attached records. Thanks again!


Hi Andrew,

The dates in each of the records are given in terms which refer to earlier entries. Here are the dates:
1. Marriage of Marcin Rojewski & Katarzyna Garaczanka: November 23, 1789.
2. Baptism of Andrzej Rojewski: November 19, 1792. Note that the entry only names the day of his baptism with no mention of the day on which he was born.
3. Marriage of Andrzej Rojewski & Katarzyna Marcinowna: November 5, 1814 or 1815.

Items of possible note and/or interest in the 3 records:

The form of the entries is indicative of the political upheaval which took place in the region during the final decade of the 18th Century through 1815. The first two entries are religious records of marriage and baptism. Both entries were made while the region was part of the województwo of Gniezno of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Rzeczpostpolita Obojga Narodów). There was no system of civil registration in the Commonwealth and church records were used as substitutes for civil registrations. The ecclesiastical focus of the records shows through the entries. The marriage entry records the fulfillment of the church requirement of the banns being announced on three days when Catholics were required to attend Mass. The priest interjects a personal wish immediately following the entry: “Incipit annus 1790 utinam (sit, understood) felix”. “The year 1790 begins; may it be happy.” Three years later the region was taken by Prussia and became part of the Province of South Prussia (Gernan: Südpreußen; Polish: Prusy Południowe) from 1793 to 1806. None of the records are from that time period.

That the baptismal entry for Andrzej is a religious rather than a civil record is seen in the fact that only the date of baptism without the date of birth is recorded. There is also a notation that a certificate had been issued in 1835. Both the marriage and the baptism entries state the Marcin & Katarzyna were peasants and the marriage record lists Marcin’s occupation as a servant (famulus).

The final marriage entry was composed as the Duchy of Warsaw was coming to an end. Although it seems to be an ecclesiastical record, actually it is a civil record. The wording makes this clear in the words “praemissis duabus bannis civilibus” (“The two civil banns having been announced beforehand”). Andrzej & Katarzyna are described as peasants. An interesting entry on the page notes that the dean of the deanery to which Klecko belonged didn’t review and sign off on the records until November 16, 1825.

Wishing you continued success,

Dave


Last edited by dnowicki on Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:28 am      Post subject:
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Dave thanks so much. It's incredible how much information you can derive especially from such small entries in these record books!

Stay healthy/safe
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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:36 am      Post subject:
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Dave,

i also took a stab at the Martin Rojewski and Catharina Garazanka marriage. Do you think her last name is Garazanka? It's hard to tell
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dnowicki
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:50 am      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
Dave,

i also took a stab at the Martin Rojewski and Catharina Garazanka marriage. Do you think her last name is Garazanka? It's hard to tell


Andrew,

I didn’t pay much attention to the surname until now. Determining the letters in surnames is not my forte. I generally have no problem with Latin words since I know what to expect but surnames are another kettle of fish. The method I employ whenever I am unsure of a letter or letters is to compare the word to other known words in the handwritten text. In this case I wouldn’t bet the farm on the first letter being G. It is a good guess but there is only one word on the two pages which begins with an upper case G. That word is found in the second line (next to the last word) in the first entry on the left hand page and is Gnesen(sis)—Latin adjectival version of Gniezno. The comparison does not even make me confident that the initial letter in the surname is beyond doubt an uppercase G.

Although I’m not certain of the spelling of the surname I can say a few things which may be of some use. The suffix -anka is a old feminine suffix used on many surnames which come from nouns. It was commonly used in that region of Poland, especially during the 18th Century, but is no longer ordinarily found in contemporary Polish usage. The suffix needs to be removed to figure out her father’s surname, which, of course, we would consider to be the version which should be used by his daughters. After doing the letter comparison thing for the entries on the page it seems to me that the priest began to write a letter and then adapted what he had started. The resulting letter looks to me more like the way he wrote the upper case letter J. The name as written could be Jaraszanka, which would make her father’s surname Jaraszek. No guarantee but it may be something to consider.

When doing the handwriting comparison only records entered by the same priest should be used. On the two pages only two parish priests wrote the entries—the pastor, Jakub Nering, and the assistant, Sebastian Kowalewski. The pastor wrote the entry for the marriage of Marcin and Katarzyna as well as the lion’s share of the remaining entries on the two pages. Unfortunately, he had the less legible and more inconsistent handwriting of the two. A good example of his lack of consistency appears in the stock phrase which regularly appears in the second line of each entry “...coram populo ad Divina audienda congregato...” (“...in the presence of the people gathered together to hear the Divine Rites (i.e. Sunday Mass)...” The word with the most obvious variations in handwriting is “Congregato”.

Something else to notice, not directly connected to your marriage record, is that not everyone who appears in a given entry appears with a surname. Although it has been said that most Polish Christian peasants had surnames by the 18th Century, the entries on the two pages clearly show that many individuals named in the entries either did not have or did not regularly use a surname. Even well into the 19th Century Polish surnames often were quite fluid. One set of my ancestors lived in Srocko Wielkie and during the 19th Century were known by the surname Kucharczak. During the middle of the 18th Century the patriarch of that line was first known as Andrzej from Srocko Wielkie. The magic moment which demonstrated his connection to the later Kucharczak family was two words found in the baptismal record of one of his one son and two daughters. There he was listed as cocus aulicus/cook at the manor house (in Srocko Wielkie). Because of his occupation the surname Kucharczak stuck. Sometimes one or two words can bring about enlightenment.

I doubt that all the above helps to confirm the handwritten surname but perhaps it may point your research in a productive direction.

Wishing you success,

Dave
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a4u2fear



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Post Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:36 pm      Post subject:
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I think it's similar to the very top town of Gorzechowy? I do also recall this G looking like this when researching for one of my ancestors Gasper, it's a very unusual G.

Im also finding relatives just like you said, their marriage and some of their child's births are Adalbert and Catharina, and there are three different sets of them, all with no last names! But they eventually adapt a last name but it's taking a lot of detective skills to figure out which is them, which isn't them, and which could be them. Ha
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:03 pm      Post subject: Xenia Meklesz
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Can someone translate the entry about Xenia? I am having a hard time deciphering all the cursive text.
Thanks!



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Post Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:23 pm      Post subject: Re: Xenia Meklesz
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robvaivodiss wrote:
Can someone translate the entry about Xenia? I am having a hard time deciphering all the cursive text.
Thanks!


Hi,

Here is the translation of the entry. The headings may not match the exact wording of those at the top of your record but they are a good fit for the entered information. Given names are translated into their Polish form since that was the language of the region. Wherever I was unsure of a handwritten surname it is followed by a question mark,

I hope this helps your research.

Dave

Col. 1 N(ume)rus Serialis = Number in order: Cut off in image
Col. 2: Dies et Mensis = Day and Month:
Col. 2a: Nat(ivitatis) = of birth: April 15
Col. 2b: Bapt(ismi) = of baptism: April 16
Col. 3: N(ume)ro Domus = at house number: 13
Col. 4: Nomen Baptisati = Name of person baptized: Ksenia
Col. 5: Religio = Religion
Col. 5a: Catholica = Catholic: Greek Catholic
Col. 5b: Acatholica= Non-Catholic: Blank
Col. 6: Sexus = Sex/Gender
Col. 6a: Puer = Boy: Blank
Col. 6b: Puella = Girl: Checked
Col. 7: Thori = of the (marital) bed
Col. 7a: Legitimi = Legitimate: Checked
Col. 7b: Illegitimi = Illegitimate: Blank
Notations in Cols. 2-7b: The midwife (was) Maria, the wife of Aleksy Łemkałowicz from Orenoa(?). Jar. Luczakowskej, the pastor of the Greek Catholic parish of this place, baptized and confirmed (her).
Col. 8: PARENTES = PARENTS
Col. 8a: PATRIS ac parentum nomen, cognomen et conditio ejus = The name of the father and the first and surname of his parents (i.e. the paternal grandparents of the child) and his condition/status/occupation: Piotr, The son of Jan Meklesz and of Katarzyna née Polauczycz(?), farmers of this place
Col. 8b: MATRIS ac parentum nomen, cognomen et conditio = The name of the mother and also the first and surnames of her parents (i.e. the maternal grandparents of the child) and their condition/status/occupation: Paraskewa, the daughter of Jan Oryniak and of Maryna née Briaszczej
Col. 9: PATRINI = Sponsors EORUM = Their
Col. 9a: Nomen et Cognomen et Conditio = First and Surname(s) and Condition/Occupation/ Status: Teodor ?ub (&) Justyna, the widow of Antoni Ołeksyszyn, farmers of this place
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:02 pm      Post subject: Re: Xenia Meklesz
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dnowicki wrote:
robvaivodiss wrote:
Can someone translate the entry about Xenia? I am having a hard time deciphering all the cursive text.
Thanks!


Hi,

Here is the translation of the entry. The headings may not match the exact wording of those at the top of your record but they are a good fit for the entered information. Given names are translated into their Polish form since that was the language of the region. Wherever I was unsure of a handwritten surname it is followed by a question mark,

I hope this helps your research.

Dave

Col. 1 N(ume)rus Serialis = Number in order: Cut off in image
Col. 2: Dies et Mensis = Day and Month:
Col. 2a: Nat(ivitatis) = of birth: April 15
Col. 2b: Bapt(ismi) = of baptism: April 16
Col. 3: N(ume)ro Domus = at house number: 13
Col. 4: Nomen Baptisati = Name of person baptized: Ksenia
Col. 5: Religio = Religion
Col. 5a: Catholica = Catholic: Greek Catholic
Col. 5b: Acatholica= Non-Catholic: Blank
Col. 6: Sexus = Sex/Gender
Col. 6a: Puer = Boy: Blank
Col. 6b: Puella = Girl: Checked
Col. 7: Thori = of the (marital) bed
Col. 7a: Legitimi = Legitimate: Checked
Col. 7b: Illegitimi = Illegitimate: Blank
Notations in Cols. 2-7b: The midwife (was) Maria, the wife of Aleksy Łemkałowicz from Orenoa(?). Jar. Luczakowskej, the pastor of the Greek Catholic parish of this place, baptized and confirmed (her).
Col. 8: PARENTES = PARENTS
Col. 8a: PATRIS ac parentum nomen, cognomen et conditio ejus = The name of the father and the first and surname of his parents (i.e. the paternal grandparents of the child) and his condition/status/occupation: Piotr, The son of Jan Meklesz and of Katarzyna née Polauczycz(?), farmers of this place
Col. 8b: MATRIS ac parentum nomen, cognomen et conditio = The name of the mother and also the first and surnames of her parents (i.e. the maternal grandparents of the child) and their condition/status/occupation: Paraskewa, the daughter of Jan Oryniak and of Maryna née Briaszczej
Col. 9: PATRINI = Sponsors EORUM = Their
Col. 9a: Nomen et Cognomen et Conditio = First and Surname(s) and Condition/Occupation/ Status: Teodor ?ub (&) Justyna, the widow of Antoni Ołeksyszyn, farmers of this place


Thanks so much! Those are some really complicated last names.
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Post Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:43 pm      Post subject: P.P. Ref.
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Dave,

I can only assume that my last post angered you.

Nonetheless, another genealogy/Latin person has proposed the following for the "P. P. Ref." notation that was found after the priest's name in the Gorlice record. You might be interested in the suggestion.

The suggestion is: P. P. Ref. = "Pastor Parochiae Reformatae" = Pastor of the reformed parish

My understanding(?): Pastor in the nominative, Parochiae in the feminine genitive, and the participle Reformatae in the genitive to modify Parochiae. Pastor being one of those words that (in the nominative) comes over to English with the identical spelling.
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:10 pm      Post subject:
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Dave, do you know anyone who can translate hungarian?
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:30 pm      Post subject:
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a4u2fear wrote:
Dave, do you know anyone who can translate hungarian?


Andrew,

Unfortunately I don't. Have you looked at the Hungarian word list on Family Search? If not, here is the link https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Hungarian_Genealogical_Word_List

Sorry that I can't be of more help.

Dave
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:55 pm      Post subject: translation
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dave can you please translate the Chabsko marriage (3rd down) on left side btwn Thomas Jaskiewicz and Agnes?

Thanks!



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Thomas Jaskiewicz and Agnes marriage 1785 Chabsko / Mogilno
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